Who Pays the Taxes? Who Should?

[edthecynic]

Still taking things out of context, hey Ed? But maybe you aren't totally hopeless. Do you are do you not see a difference in the meaning and intent of these two sentences?:

1. Ed should not post on subjects he obviously does not understand.
2. Ed should not be allowed to post on subjects he does not understand.

Do you not see that you are suggesting a restriction on my posting in both?

But in the first example, the choice is left to you. You can choose to post or not. I am only giving an opinion on whether you should. It's a value issue, not a mandate.

In the second example, however, the choice is taken fro you. Big difference.

In both cases you are making the choice for me. The choice is not yours to make.

 

[Obamanation]

Just to let everyone know the rich pay 70% of the taxes now.

And your point is? I really don't get it, is there a point?

You know, you can't really get blood from a stone. If the poor have no money, than getting money from them is impossible.

What people fail to understand, is that a flat tax, is, in essence, a regressive tax. It sounds fair, but 50% of a million dollars still leaves you with half a million. 50% of ten dollars is five bucks left.

Who cares if the rich pay 70% of the taxes, they own everything, who else is going to pay, the trees? The sky?

Bear in mind, these charts are from 2007, five years ago. It's not like the wealth has trickled down any, it hasn't. Wealth as only become more concentrated since then.

Do I think we should tax the rich? No. Do I think we should tax anyone? No. But we do need to deal with this problem. But we need to quit worrying so much about the money changers in the temple and start worrying about the people that are doing the real work of running the nation. The farmers, the laborers, the builders, the teachers, and the entrepreneurs. We need to give them a real currency, one that the founders gave congress the right to issue. What we have is fobbed of on a cartel of bankers the illusion of an authority to issue funny money. Now we are paying for it. When I was little, deficits, as everyone knew, mattered. They have brain washed and conditioned everyone with their controlled media that it doesn't matter anymore. Now you are arguing about the wrong issue. Arguing about funny money. It's all fake.
http://www.24hgold.com/francais/contributor.aspx?article=3180997226G10020&contributor=Eric+de+Carbonnel

(If the US is the world's reserve currency, what would happen if all that currency came back home? They never ever talk about that do they?) Taxation is that least of our problems now, measuring legitimate production when our currency is worthless, that is the problem.

And we need to stop using our nation's army as a goon squad to carry out the orders of international banking and corporate cartels to ensure monopolies over resources, whether it be oil, uranium, or whatever other energy, food, water, or manufacturing resource they think the public's army and pocket book should pay to requisition and protect. Certainly not land for client states. We would save a lot of money right off by quit paying off private centralized banking and goon squads. War is a racket, and elites controlling the world economy is a racket. Oh, and don't forget the latest craze for the elites in money making schemes, death-care rackets; choose one - pharmaceuticals, insurance, GMO foods, controlled water fluoridation systems, mandatory vaccine programs, etc. . . . .

by elites you mean liberal educators and the media right?

The only racket is taking money from people who earn it and giving it to people who don't

If you took 100 people put them on a island, gave them all $1000.00 a piece, you could come back 6 months later and the ones who had the money before this little test, would have the money again. The ones who were on welfare would be begging for food.

You want to get rid of that kind of suffering, you are gonna have to convince the poor to change the behaviors that leave them poor. Finish HS, get married before having children and WORK!!!

 

[Interpol]

A flat tax is for flat earthers, birthers, and other know-nothings.

A flat tax would hurt most of us because 10% of $45,000 means a lot more to that person's livelihood than 10% of 4,500,000.

I'm for a traditional progressive tax rate that asks you to pitch in a little bit more the higher you make in order to help fulfill the destiny of the greatest country on the planet, one in which you are allowed to make an unlimited sum of money.

People who consume on a regular basis are the engine of America's economy, not Mitt Romney. Under a flat tax scenario, regular folks would be paying into their country while guys like Romney get out of paying anything by socking it all in offshore investments and accounts.

There isn't one scientific model that shows anything good for the flat tax idea.

We need a progressive tax code so the country can invest where it needs to and administrate programs that both the left and right will not do without, no matter what the Paul Ryan plan for privatizing Medicare says.

Some people look at the statistic that shows almost half the country not paying federal income taxes and they think to themselves that those people must be lazy bums. Of course, that's what bigots do, they make wild assumptions in their minds because of their own negative attitudes.

Most hard-working taxpayers in America who don't pay federal income taxes tend to be spread out over a couple jobs, or they have one job, though it doesn't pay enough to qualify for paying federal income taxes.

That's the real problem. We want as many working adults paying federal income taxes as we can get, but we need them to actually be earning an adult, living wage so that that can happen. However, we won't ever get there if the philosophy in America becomes one where we're trying to win a race to the bottom with Indonesia or China, offering terrible compensation to tens of millions of people while a few people run off with billions. Makes no sense.

If the free market system was actually working both to benefit shareholders and employees, wealth would be distributed via "Trickle Down" economics, wage earners would be getting better wages and they'd be paying federal income taxes.

 

[edthecynic]

Just to let everyone know the rich pay 70% of the taxes now.

And your point is? I really don't get it, is there a point?

You know, you can't really get blood from a stone. If the poor have no money, than getting money from them is impossible.

What people fail to understand, is that a flat tax, is, in essence, a regressive tax. It sounds fair, but 50% of a million dollars still leaves you with half a million. 50% of ten dollars is five bucks left.

Who cares if the rich pay 70% of the taxes, they own everything, who else is going to pay, the trees? The sky?

Bear in mind, these charts are from 2007, five years ago. It's not like the wealth has trickled down any, it hasn't. Wealth as only become more concentrated since then.

Do I think we should tax the rich? No. Do I think we should tax anyone? No. But we do need to deal with this problem. But we need to quit worrying so much about the money changers in the temple and start worrying about the people that are doing the real work of running the nation. The farmers, the laborers, the builders, the teachers, and the entrepreneurs. We need to give them a real currency, one that the founders gave congress the right to issue. What we have is fobbed of on a cartel of bankers the illusion of an authority to issue funny money. Now we are paying for it. When I was little, deficits, as everyone knew, mattered. They have brain washed and conditioned everyone with their controlled media that it doesn't matter anymore. Now you are arguing about the wrong issue. Arguing about funny money. It's all fake.
http://www.24hgold.com/francais/contributor.aspx?article=3180997226G10020&contributor=Eric+de+Carbonnel

(If the US is the world's reserve currency, what would happen if all that currency came back home? They never ever talk about that do they?) Taxation is that least of our problems now, measuring legitimate production when our currency is worthless, that is the problem.

And we need to stop using our nation's army as a goon squad to carry out the orders of international banking and corporate cartels to ensure monopolies over resources, whether it be oil, uranium, or whatever other energy, food, water, or manufacturing resource they think the public's army and pocket book should pay to requisition and protect. Certainly not land for client states. We would save a lot of money right off by quit paying off private centralized banking and goon squads. War is a racket, and elites controlling the world economy is a racket. Oh, and don't forget the latest craze for the elites in money making schemes, death-care rackets; choose one - pharmaceuticals, insurance, GMO foods, controlled water fluoridation systems, mandatory vaccine programs, etc. . . . .

by elites you mean liberal educators and the media right?

The only racket is taking money from people who earn it and giving it to people who don't

If you took 100 people put them on a island, gave them all $1000.00 a piece, you could come back 6 months later and the ones who had the money before this little test, would have the money again. The ones who were on welfare would be begging for food.

You want to get rid of that kind of suffering, you are gonna have to convince the poor to change the behaviors that leave them poor. Finish HS, get married before having children and WORK!!!

If that is true then why are you crybabies bitching about redistribution of wealth, the wealth will only come back to the wealthy again and they will have the thrill of accumulating it again.

 

[Obamanation]

And your point is? I really don't get it, is there a point?

You know, you can't really get blood from a stone. If the poor have no money, than getting money from them is impossible.

What people fail to understand, is that a flat tax, is, in essence, a regressive tax. It sounds fair, but 50% of a million dollars still leaves you with half a million. 50% of ten dollars is five bucks left.

Who cares if the rich pay 70% of the taxes, they own everything, who else is going to pay, the trees? The sky?

Bear in mind, these charts are from 2007, five years ago. It's not like the wealth has trickled down any, it hasn't. Wealth as only become more concentrated since then.

Do I think we should tax the rich? No. Do I think we should tax anyone? No. But we do need to deal with this problem. But we need to quit worrying so much about the money changers in the temple and start worrying about the people that are doing the real work of running the nation. The farmers, the laborers, the builders, the teachers, and the entrepreneurs. We need to give them a real currency, one that the founders gave congress the right to issue. What we have is fobbed of on a cartel of bankers the illusion of an authority to issue funny money. Now we are paying for it. When I was little, deficits, as everyone knew, mattered. They have brain washed and conditioned everyone with their controlled media that it doesn't matter anymore. Now you are arguing about the wrong issue. Arguing about funny money. It's all fake.
http://www.24hgold.com/francais/contributor.aspx?article=3180997226G10020&contributor=Eric+de+Carbonnel

(If the US is the world's reserve currency, what would happen if all that currency came back home? They never ever talk about that do they?) Taxation is that least of our problems now, measuring legitimate production when our currency is worthless, that is the problem.

And we need to stop using our nation's army as a goon squad to carry out the orders of international banking and corporate cartels to ensure monopolies over resources, whether it be oil, uranium, or whatever other energy, food, water, or manufacturing resource they think the public's army and pocket book should pay to requisition and protect. Certainly not land for client states. We would save a lot of money right off by quit paying off private centralized banking and goon squads. War is a racket, and elites controlling the world economy is a racket. Oh, and don't forget the latest craze for the elites in money making schemes, death-care rackets; choose one - pharmaceuticals, insurance, GMO foods, controlled water fluoridation systems, mandatory vaccine programs, etc. . . . .

by elites you mean liberal educators and the media right?

The only racket is taking money from people who earn it and giving it to people who don't

If you took 100 people put them on a island, gave them all $1000.00 a piece, you could come back 6 months later and the ones who had the money before this little test, would have the money again. The ones who were on welfare would be begging for food.

You want to get rid of that kind of suffering, you are gonna have to convince the poor to change the behaviors that leave them poor. Finish HS, get married before having children and WORK!!!

If that is true then why are you crybabies bitching about redistribution of wealth, the wealth will only come back to the wealthy again and they will have the thrill of accumulating it again.

Well obviously, in my little example, there is no gov't to waste all the money. Plus there are two things that the left hate --- accountability and responsibility.

If your messiah had/showed either, he would just quit the race now!

 

[edthecynic]

by elites you mean liberal educators and the media right?

The only racket is taking money from people who earn it and giving it to people who don't

If you took 100 people put them on a island, gave them all $1000.00 a piece, you could come back 6 months later and the ones who had the money before this little test, would have the money again. The ones who were on welfare would be begging for food.

You want to get rid of that kind of suffering, you are gonna have to convince the poor to change the behaviors that leave them poor. Finish HS, get married before having children and WORK!!!

If that is true then why are you crybabies bitching about redistribution of wealth, the wealth will only come back to the wealthy again and they will have the thrill of accumulating it again.

Well obviously, in my little example, there is no gov't to waste all the money. Plus there are two things that the left hate --- accountability and responsibility.

If your messiah had/showed either, he would just quit the race now!

There is also no government to defend the individual's right to private ownership in your example!

The thing the Right forgets is the Left are more financially successful. The Right simply declare themselves financially and morally superior without ever earning the distinction.

 

[Skull Pilot]

If that is true then why are you crybabies bitching about redistribution of wealth, the wealth will only come back to the wealthy again and they will have the thrill of accumulating it again.

Well obviously, in my little example, there is no gov't to waste all the money. Plus there are two things that the left hate --- accountability and responsibility.

If your messiah had/showed either, he would just quit the race now!

There is also no government to defend the individual's right to private ownership in your example!

The thing the Right forgets is the Left are more financially successful. The Right simply declare themselves financially and morally superior without ever earning the distinction.

According to NPR there are more rich republicans than rich democrats.

As GOP Cashes In, Democrats Search For Billionaires : NPR

 

[edthecynic]

Well obviously, in my little example, there is no gov't to waste all the money. Plus there are two things that the left hate --- accountability and responsibility.

If your messiah had/showed either, he would just quit the race now!

There is also no government to defend the individual's right to private ownership in your example!

The thing the Right forgets is the Left are more financially successful. The Right simply declare themselves financially and morally superior without ever earning the distinction.

According to NPR there are more rich republicans than rich democrats.

As GOP Cashes In, Democrats Search For Billionaires : NPR

The fact that there are more GOP billionaires only proves that there are more GOP leeches sucking on the government teat. When the right likes to brag about how generous they are, they admit that ON AVERAGE Libs are wealthier than CON$. For Libs to AVERAGE more there have to be more poor CON$ to drag down the AVERAGE that includes more billionaires.

RealClearPolitics - Articles - Conservatives More Liberal Givers
March 27, 2008
Conservatives More Liberal Givers
By George Will

Although liberal families' incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household.

 

[Skull Pilot]

There is also no government to defend the individual's right to private ownership in your example!

The thing the Right forgets is the Left are more financially successful. The Right simply declare themselves financially and morally superior without ever earning the distinction.

According to NPR there are more rich republicans than rich democrats.

As GOP Cashes In, Democrats Search For Billionaires : NPR

The fact that there are more GOP billionaires only proves that there are more GOP leeches sucking on the government teat. When the right likes to brag about how generous they are, they admit that ON AVERAGE Libs are wealthier than CON$. For Libs to AVERAGE more there have to be more poor CON$ to drag down the AVERAGE that includes more billionaires.

RealClearPolitics - Articles - Conservatives More Liberal Givers
March 27, 2008
Conservatives More Liberal Givers
By George Will

Although liberal families' incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household.

2008? you can't find any more recent proof ?

A lot has changed in 4 years

 

[edthecynic]

According to NPR there are more rich republicans than rich democrats.

As GOP Cashes In, Democrats Search For Billionaires : NPR

The fact that there are more GOP billionaires only proves that there are more GOP leeches sucking on the government teat. When the right likes to brag about how generous they are, they admit that ON AVERAGE Libs are wealthier than CON$. For Libs to AVERAGE more there have to be more poor CON$ to drag down the AVERAGE that includes more billionaires.

RealClearPolitics - Articles - Conservatives More Liberal Givers
March 27, 2008
Conservatives More Liberal Givers
By George Will

Although liberal families' incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household.

2008? you can't find any more recent proof ?

A lot has changed in 4 years

It's up to you to prove otherwise, you are making the claim.

 

[auditor0007]

Sorry, but this thread is ridiculous. The fed gov't should stop spending so much damn money...

When they cut fed spending in half - we can talk about how we want to spend our own money again.

I selected "everyone should pay less".

As a conservative who mostly aligns with the Tea Party, I see some problems with a flat tax --- some benefits too though. I'd sure love to see the end of the IRS --- talk about gov't waste. The biggest problem I see with a flat tax is that $20 out of every hundred sure hurts the middle and lower class a lot more than upper middle and rich.

Now, that said, I'd personally be fine with a flat tax for myself - but I think everyone should pay fed income tax as long as there is a fed income tax - and taking $200 out of some guy trying to take care of a family on $1000 pay check would really hurt...

The reason that I keep using 20% is that IMO, the gov't should be able to run just fine on less than that, providing enough overflow to pay back the debt.

I personally believe that more power should be given back to state gov't and the feds should handle only the most basic functions. If Liberal states want to provide for liberal causes and they can raise the interest enough to hike taxes then let them go for it.

I don't want to hear whining about how far in debt these liberal state already are --- that was their doing. Let liberals live among their own kind and conservatives live among their own kind.

It's interesting that you use the figure of 20% and believe we need to cut taxes when current revenues are only 15% of GDP. There is this idea out there that we are being taken to the cleaners by Uncle Sam, but the truth is that revenues are at their lowest in over 60 years. Part of this is due to the terrible economy and so many people being out of work, but part of it is also due to rates being historically low, at least for modern times.

During Reagan's first term, when the economy was in almost as bad of shape as now, federal revenues were over 19% of GDP, 4% higher than today. This is why I get so aggravated by the constant whining from the right about taxes being too high and the cause of all of our problems. The facts just do not support the argument in any way, shape, or form.

 

[MisterBeale]

http://www.24hgold.com/francais/contributor.aspx?article=3180997226G10020&contributor=Eric+de+Carbonnel


by elites you mean liberal educators and the media right?

The only racket is taking money from people who earn it and giving it to people who don't

If you took 100 people put them on a island, gave them all $1000.00 a piece, you could come back 6 months later and the ones who had the money before this little test, would have the money again. The ones who were on welfare would be begging for food.

You want to get rid of that kind of suffering, you are gonna have to convince the poor to change the behaviors that leave them poor. Finish HS, get married before having children and WORK!!!

http://www.24hgold.com/francais/contributor.aspx?article=3180997226G10020&contributor=Eric+de+Carbonnel
errr. . . not exactly. You didn't read any of my post. The only thing you did was look at the pictures. The problem with Americans is that they only can understand rhetoric, division and hatred. They need someone to blame, they need to blame the other, someone tangible and something tangible.

During the Great Depression, was it the fault of the poor and middle class that there were no jobs? After WWI, was the fault of the Allies middle class, poor and working class that currency was worthless in Germany? When the economy is falling apart, and society is losing it's grounding, yes, we do need to question our basic premises, not cast about for someone to place blame on, the press, whom the elites have always conveniently controlled, have always found a convenient scape goat. The scape goat has always been the wrong target.

Your basic premises are correct, the media has been co-opted, but it isn't, "the liberal" media, it is the corporate media elites. They aren't liberal educators, they are social engineering educators. They don't mean to be, they are just educated in institutions with dogmatic principals directed from tax-exempt foundations that are given grants down from overhead. This social engineering has nothing to do with manipulation of the economy though, and everything to do with manipulating the thought and ideas of society. This is a very important concept. This is a digression from the "taxation" issue though.

This is a must watch video, I don't know why it doesn't show up, a lot of people don't have the intelligence, or even the attention to focus and understand it. We were warned by a presidential candidate back in the 90's about this problem. At the end of this year, and into the next, the bill will come due as he said it would. Taxes, yeah, whatever. You can't tax the people, rich or poor if their currency isn't worth anything. People on this forum just don't want to understand or have the patience/attention span to read up on this problem. If it can't be twittered, it isn't worth it.

The Budget that Can't Be Balanced! YouTube​

​

 

[MisterBeale]

If that is true then why are you crybabies bitching about redistribution of wealth, the wealth will only come back to the wealthy again and they will have the thrill of accumulating it again.

I think, you, at least, have sort of got the point of my post. This system has been set up to favor the elites no matter how you slice it. Flat tax, progressive tax, regressive tax. . . the people that control the system don't really give two shits, they print the money, hell, they OWN the system, argue till you are blue in the face however you like, how you want to slice the pie up. In the end, you still have to pay the owner of the restaurant, and he knows what actually is in the pie. He's got another two pies back in the kitchen.

 

[Foxfyre]

http://www.24hgold.com/francais/contributor.aspx?article=3180997226G10020&contributor=Eric+de+Carbonnel


by elites you mean liberal educators and the media right?

The only racket is taking money from people who earn it and giving it to people who don't

If you took 100 people put them on a island, gave them all $1000.00 a piece, you could come back 6 months later and the ones who had the money before this little test, would have the money again. The ones who were on welfare would be begging for food.

You want to get rid of that kind of suffering, you are gonna have to convince the poor to change the behaviors that leave them poor. Finish HS, get married before having children and WORK!!!

http://www.24hgold.com/francais/contributor.aspx?article=3180997226G10020&contributor=Eric+de+Carbonnel
errr. . . not exactly. You didn't read any of my post. The only thing you did was look at the pictures. The problem with Americans is that they only can understand rhetoric, division and hatred. They need someone to blame, they need to blame the other, someone tangible and something tangible.

During the Great Depression, was it the fault of the poor and middle class that there were no jobs? After WWI, was the fault of the Allies middle class, poor and working class that currency was worthless in Germany? When the economy is falling apart, and society is losing it's grounding, yes, we do need to question our basic premises, not cast about for someone to place blame on, the press, whom the elites have always conveniently controlled, have always found a convenient scape goat. The scape goat has always been the wrong target.

Your basic premises are correct, the media has been co-opted, but it isn't, "the liberal" media, it is the corporate media elites. They aren't liberal educators, they are social engineering educators. They don't mean to be, they are just educated in institutions with dogmatic principals directed from tax-exempt foundations that are given grants down from overhead. This social engineering has nothing to do with manipulation of the economy though, and everything to do with manipulating the thought and ideas of society. This is a very important concept. This is a digression from the "taxation" issue though.

This is a must watch video, I don't know why it doesn't show up, a lot of people don't have the intelligence, or even the attention to focus and understand it. We were warned by a presidential candidate back in the 90's about this problem. At the end of this year, and into the next, the bill will come due as he said it would. Taxes, yeah, whatever. You can't tax the people, rich or poor if their currency isn't worth anything. People on this forum just don't want to understand or have the patience/attention span to read up on this problem. If it can't be twittered, it isn't worth it.

The Budget that Can't Be Balanced! YouTube​

​

The problem with the pro-government group is that they won't look at the three single factors that we HAVE to look at before we are going to pull the economic train back onto the tracks:

1. There is no federal budget item that does not include some waste, some graft, some self-serving interest, or doesn't encourage waste no matter how noble sounding the title or how noble sounding the agency or process to be funded. A funding budget that is routinely going to be increased so long as all the money is spent is not conducive to responsible money management.

2. The federal government is always going to be the most expensive, less effective, and less efficient way to address social problems and issues. The federal government should be restricted to its constitutionally mandated responsibilities and the states should handle everything else.

3. Government at any level should do only what cannot be done more effectively, efficiently, and economically by the private sector. Such a concept implemented will spur economic growth and budgets are balanced with a combination of real private sector economic growth coupled with responsible stewardship of what should always be seen as the people's money.

 

[Skull Pilot]

If the fucking government is going to institute a tax then no one should be exempt.

Can you buy gas and not pay state and federal gas taxes? No.

Therefore if there is going to be an income tax then everyone with an income should pay it. Period.

 

[G.T.]

Ask Reagan.

Reagan Warned Us About Mitt Romney Backs Obama Buffett Rule - YouTube!

 

[syrenn]

i voted flat tax

everyone has skin in the game...and everyone bleeds the same.

 

[AmyNation]

If the fucking government is going to institute a tax then no one should be exempt.

Can you buy gas and not pay state and federal gas taxes? No.

Therefore if there is going to be an income tax then everyone with an income should pay it. Period.

Eliminating all credits and loopholes from the current tax code would only be a band-aid on the real issue. In 10 years, most of those deductions would be back, because both parties use them to bargin with.

 

[Skull Pilot]

If the fucking government is going to institute a tax then no one should be exempt.

Can you buy gas and not pay state and federal gas taxes? No.

Therefore if there is going to be an income tax then everyone with an income should pay it. Period.

Eliminating all credits and loopholes from the current tax code would only be a band-aid on the real issue. In 10 years, most of those deductions would be back, because both parties use them to bargin with.

As I said before, the system is broken.

The only way to fix it is to scrap the entire current tax code and institute a simple 10% tax on gross income regardless of the source.

 

[DiamondDave]

No one said anything about guaranteed outcome or ease of outcome.

However when discussing national policy, you can't just discuss things in a vacuum. We have some of the worst upward mobility compared to other industrialized nations, if you're born poor in Australia, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Germany, Spain, France, and Canada you have a better shot of raising above your socioeconomic class than the US.

You can't just say "poor people shouldn't be having families".

You want the tax rate of Sweden?? It is wealth redistribution, something a free society should never stand for

Your upward mobility is not the government's responsibility nor anyone else's

I don't say they should be forbidden from having families.. I do say that they have to support them themselves, regardless if it takes working 2 or 3 or whatever # of jobs... you deciding to have kids is not on anyone else's responsibility list