Who's to Blame: Big Government or Big Business?

[candycorn]

Read the Links, there are examples.

Okay, pick the most egregious thing the GOP govs are doing and tell us about it. If you have a point, make it.

https://www.aclu.org/fighting-voter-suppression


"The Supreme Court in June struck down a portion of the Voting Rights Act that required some places, mostly in the South, to obtain federal permission, or preclearance, before changing their voting procedures. Since then, several of those places have moved ahead with new restrictions on voting eligibility."

Okay, a federal court ruling. Blame the governors if you want but any injury was inflicted by the Feds.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/07/25/us/efforts-to-change-voting-laws.html?_r=0

"Former Florida GOP leaders say voter suppression was reason they pushed new election law"
Former Florida GOP leaders say voter suppression was reason... | www.palmbeachpost.com

Not sure how this is proof of anything outside of they saw a problem (right or wrong) and remedied it.

"In 2004, Ohio had the longest lines in the country on Election Day, with some voters—particularly in large urban areas—waiting as long as seven hours to vote. A DNC survey estimated that 174,000 Ohioans—3 percent of the state’s electorate—left without voting. George W. Bush won the state by just 118,000 votes.

"In response to the long lines, Ohio adopted thirty-five days of early voting in 2008, including on nights and weekends, to make voting more convenient. But following the large Democratic turnout in 2008, Ohio Republicans drastically curtailed early voting in 2012 from thirty-five to eleven days,

It's also 11 days for the GOP to cast a ballot. No damage done.

with no voting on the Sunday before the election, when African-American churches historically rally their congregants to go to the polls.

I imagine "white" churches do the same thing. But somehow this is more of an infliction on African-Americans?

So far, you've highlighted rules that have affected all voters equally.

Voting rights activists subsequently gathered enough signatures to block the new voting restrictions and force a referendum on Election Day. In reaction, Ohio Republicans repealed their own bill in the state legislature, but kept a ban on early voting three days before Election Day (when 98,000 Ohioans voted in 2008), adding an exception for active duty members of the military, who tend to lean Republican."

Link:
Ohio GOP Resurrects Voter Suppression Efforts | The Nation

So they repealed the bill you just cited? Again, with the exception for ADMP which is certainly understandable--am I right?--these laws affect all Ohioans.

My point is the GOP is engaged in suppressing the vote of U.S. Citizens.

So far you haven't shown that.

If a citizen has proper ID and cannot gets to the polls his/her right to vote has been taken from them and - IMO and that of any rational, thinking, honest person - it is an intentional act, because the GOP cannot win on ideas.

I agree the GOP is devoid of ideas except for trying to engender fear and always blame someone else. So far you've shown nothing extraordinary happening in Ohio. You did say that the heavily populated areas had long lines. That shouldn't surprise you. Citing what happens in African-American churches as if there is some unique political ramification to being black and religious is flat out silly.

Anyway--

I'll ask you the same questions.

If we're not going to require that Jane Doe prove that she is Jane Doe when she casts her ballot, what is the point of registration?

What is the downside of having a picture voter registration card in place of the paper card most have now?

How much fraud is acceptable and why would you want to allow any fraud at all?

 

[georgephillip]

Ralph Nader wants to know:

"Describing the United States as an 'advanced Third World country,' longtime consumer advocate and former presidential candidate Ralph Nader calls for a new mass movement to challenge the power corporations have in Washington.

"'It is not too extreme to call our system of government now "American fascism." It’s the control of government by big business, which Franklin Delano Roosevelt defined in 1938 as fascism,' Nader says.

"'We have the lowest minimum wage in the Western world. We have the greatest amount of consumer debt. We have the highest child poverty, the highest adult poverty, huge underemployment, a crumbling public works — but huge multi-billionaires and hugely profitable corporations.

"'I say to the American people: What’s your breaking point? When are you going to stop making excuses for yourself? When are you going to stop exaggerating these powers when you know you have the power in this country if you organize it?'"

American Fascism: Ralph Nader Decries How Big Business Has Taken Control of the U.S. Government | Democracy Now!

 

[zeke]

Okay, pick the most egregious thing the GOP govs are doing and tell us about it. If you have a point, make it.

https://www.aclu.org/fighting-voter-suppression


"The Supreme Court in June struck down a portion of the Voting Rights Act that required some places, mostly in the South, to obtain federal permission, or preclearance, before changing their voting procedures. Since then, several of those places have moved ahead with new restrictions on voting eligibility."

Okay, a federal court ruling. Blame the governors if you want but any injury was inflicted by the Feds.



Not sure how this is proof of anything outside of they saw a problem (right or wrong) and remedied it.


It's also 11 days for the GOP to cast a ballot. No damage done.


I imagine "white" churches do the same thing. But somehow this is more of an infliction on African-Americans?

So far, you've highlighted rules that have affected all voters equally.


So they repealed the bill you just cited? Again, with the exception for ADMP which is certainly understandable--am I right?--these laws affect all Ohioans.

My point is the GOP is engaged in suppressing the vote of U.S. Citizens.

So far you haven't shown that.

If a citizen has proper ID and cannot gets to the polls his/her right to vote has been taken from them and - IMO and that of any rational, thinking, honest person - it is an intentional act, because the GOP cannot win on ideas.

I agree the GOP is devoid of ideas except for trying to engender fear and always blame someone else. So far you've shown nothing extraordinary happening in Ohio. You did say that the heavily populated areas had long lines. That shouldn't surprise you. Citing what happens in African-American churches as if there is some unique political ramification to being black and religious is flat out silly.

Anyway--

I'll ask you the same questions.

If we're not going to require that Jane Doe prove that she is Jane Doe when she casts her ballot, what is the point of registration?

What is the downside of having a picture voter registration card in place of the paper card most have now?

How much fraud is acceptable and why would you want to allow any fraud at all?

I live in Ohio. The general consensus among people that I talk politics with is the Repub party was DEFINITELY trying to curtail the turn out of minority voters.

I read you don't believe that. Then what was it the Repubs were trying to do? In your opinion. Do you not think the Republican party was TRYING to win in Ohio? We are a big swing state you know. And repubs felt they were fighting an uphill battle.

SO what was it the Repubs were trying to accomplish with all their actual changes and proposed changes?

Do you think their objective was to make it easier for more people or any color to vote?
Not likely.

 

[candycorn]

https://www.aclu.org/fighting-voter-suppression


"The Supreme Court in June struck down a portion of the Voting Rights Act that required some places, mostly in the South, to obtain federal permission, or preclearance, before changing their voting procedures. Since then, several of those places have moved ahead with new restrictions on voting eligibility."

Okay, a federal court ruling. Blame the governors if you want but any injury was inflicted by the Feds.



Not sure how this is proof of anything outside of they saw a problem (right or wrong) and remedied it.


It's also 11 days for the GOP to cast a ballot. No damage done.


I imagine "white" churches do the same thing. But somehow this is more of an infliction on African-Americans?

So far, you've highlighted rules that have affected all voters equally.


So they repealed the bill you just cited? Again, with the exception for ADMP which is certainly understandable--am I right?--these laws affect all Ohioans.


So far you haven't shown that.

If a citizen has proper ID and cannot gets to the polls his/her right to vote has been taken from them and - IMO and that of any rational, thinking, honest person - it is an intentional act, because the GOP cannot win on ideas.

I agree the GOP is devoid of ideas except for trying to engender fear and always blame someone else. So far you've shown nothing extraordinary happening in Ohio. You did say that the heavily populated areas had long lines. That shouldn't surprise you. Citing what happens in African-American churches as if there is some unique political ramification to being black and religious is flat out silly.

Anyway--

I'll ask you the same questions.

If we're not going to require that Jane Doe prove that she is Jane Doe when she casts her ballot, what is the point of registration?

What is the downside of having a picture voter registration card in place of the paper card most have now?

How much fraud is acceptable and why would you want to allow any fraud at all?

I live in Ohio. The general consensus among people that I talk politics with is the Repub party was DEFINITELY trying to curtail the turn out of minority voters.

I read you don't believe that. Then what was it the Repubs were trying to do? In your opinion. Do you not think the Republican party was TRYING to win in Ohio? We are a big swing state you know. And repubs felt they were fighting an uphill battle.

SO what was it the Repubs were trying to accomplish with all their actual changes and proposed changes?

Do you think their objective was to make it easier for more people or any color to vote?
Not likely.

Judging motivations from 1,500 miles away is always dicey.

I will say this; the GOP is the first to bitch about dead people showing up on the voting rolls but the last to want to fund an employee to investigate the death and competently and accurately update the records. They'd much rather hire a stringer, give them a workstation and say have at it (if not in so many words, by cutting logical an necessary funding resulting in the contractor). And boom, you have Snowden.

To answer your question "Do you think their objective was to make it easier for more people or any color to vote?" The answer from the presented evidence is no. However, the motivation for those changes is murky and the result is equal infliction of pain it would seem.

To answer your question "SO what was it the Repubs were trying to accomplish with all their actual changes and proposed changes?", again attributing motive is dicey but the old saying goes "There are only two things that stop the government from doing anything; money or politics". Since the changes were made, I have to think it was one or the other. I'll play devil's advocate and state it was designed to make it harder to register to vote. But as far as I know, the registrar in Defiance, Ohio (a shout out to my fellowScandal fans) is applying the rules to all persons equally. So again, no infraction on one party over another.

To answer your questions: "Then what was it the Repubs were trying to do? In your opinion. Do you not think the Republican party was TRYING to win in Ohio? " Sounds as if they took it from a long early voting period to a small early voting period and got rid of Sunday voting. If I didn't know better, since it was apparently State-Wide, they were trying to reduce costs. Again, how does this affect Democrats (since you brought up Repubs) more than Repubs? Of course they were trying to win Ohio. Which is why Romney not picking Portman was pretty stupid since Ryan added nothing.

Okay:

Your turn:

If we're not going to require that Jane Doe prove that she is Jane Doe when she casts her ballot, what is the point of registration?

What is the downside of having a picture voter registration card in place of the paper card most have now?

How much fraud is acceptable and why would you want to allow any fraud at all?

 

[editec]

Ralph Nader wants to know:

"Describing the United States as an 'advanced Third World country,' longtime consumer advocate and former presidential candidate Ralph Nader calls for a new mass movement to challenge the power corporations have in Washington.

"'It is not too extreme to call our system of government now "American fascism." It’s the control of government by big business, which Franklin Delano Roosevelt defined in 1938 as fascism,' Nader says.

"'We have the lowest minimum wage in the Western world. We have the greatest amount of consumer debt. We have the highest child poverty, the highest adult poverty, huge underemployment, a crumbling public works — but huge multi-billionaires and hugely profitable corporations.

"'I say to the American people: What’s your breaking point? When are you going to stop making excuses for yourself? When are you going to stop exaggerating these powers when you know you have the power in this country if you organize it?'"

American Fascism: Ralph Nader Decries How Big Business Has Taken Control of the U.S. Government | Democracy Now!

Ralph Nadar is somewhat delusional if he really imagines that organizing is going to solve the problems HE"S talking about.

Wishing it were so does not make it so.

Does he forget that Americans put a million people on the streets to end the war that continued for another 5 years?

This nation does not respond to populist movements unless the MASTERS created it first.

You know...like they CLEARLY DID in the case of the OCCUPY WALL STREET and the TEA PARTY movements?

 

[deltex1]

Now that we have figured out that big business and big government are corrupt, when do we admit that we are all corrupt and what do we do about that?

 

[Derideo_Te]

Ralph Nader wants to know:

"Describing the United States as an 'advanced Third World country,' longtime consumer advocate and former presidential candidate Ralph Nader calls for a new mass movement to challenge the power corporations have in Washington.

"'It is not too extreme to call our system of government now "American fascism." It’s the control of government by big business, which Franklin Delano Roosevelt defined in 1938 as fascism,' Nader says.

"'We have the lowest minimum wage in the Western world. We have the greatest amount of consumer debt. We have the highest child poverty, the highest adult poverty, huge underemployment, a crumbling public works — but huge multi-billionaires and hugely profitable corporations.

"'I say to the American people: What’s your breaking point? When are you going to stop making excuses for yourself? When are you going to stop exaggerating these powers when you know you have the power in this country if you organize it?'"

American Fascism: Ralph Nader Decries How Big Business Has Taken Control of the U.S. Government | Democracy Now!

Ralph Nadar is somewhat delusional if he really imagines that organizing is going to solve the problems HE"S talking about.

Wishing it were so does not make it so.

Does he forget that Americans put a million people on the streets to end the war that continued for another 5 years?

This nation does not respond to populist movements unless the MASTERS created it first.

You know...like they CLEARLY DID in the case of the OCCUPY WALL STREET and the TEA PARTY movements?

If I recall correctly it was Teddy Rooselveldt who said that labor should organize because corporations are organized. By that he was referring to Chambers of Commerce for corporations. The labor union movement was a populist movement and no, the masters were absolutely opposed to it up to and including being willing to use violence to stop it.

The American people do have the right to assemble and organize. That is not only a Constitutional right but it has been upheld by the Supreme Court. Since Reagan there was been a "War on Labor Unions" and it has reduced them to a mere 7% of the workforce.

However the current trend towards corporations paying poverty level wages will lead to a backlash that is already apparent. Needless to say it will be demonized as "socialism" and "communism" but that doesn't detract from the fact that it is a self inflicted trauma that corporations have brought down upon themselves.

Paying living wages with benefits is how capitalism works best. The scrooge approach is a short term way to garner profits but it ultimately kills the golden goose. We the People need a balanced approach and short of seeing labor unions everywhere the most obvious step is to raise the minimum wage.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Lib Voter

"The Rebups denied my vote!!! They asked for photo ID! I'm going to see Eric Holder about getting Justice!!

Lib at DOJ.

"What? I have to show Photo ID to get into DOJ? OK here"

 

[candycorn]

I can't speak for all minorities but I tend to think that I'd rather have someone call me a name and reveal their stupidity than have an alleged ally lower their expectations based on skin color. Damn near anyone can get a photo ID to vote. Those that can't likely can't muster the necessary energy to register in the first place or haul their butt down to the voting booth or to the mailbox to get their ballot.

There is no good reason to not require photo ID to cast a ballot as long as ID's are free and readily available.

 

[georgephillip]

Ralph Nader wants to know:

"Describing the United States as an 'advanced Third World country,' longtime consumer advocate and former presidential candidate Ralph Nader calls for a new mass movement to challenge the power corporations have in Washington.

"'It is not too extreme to call our system of government now "American fascism." It’s the control of government by big business, which Franklin Delano Roosevelt defined in 1938 as fascism,' Nader says.

"'We have the lowest minimum wage in the Western world. We have the greatest amount of consumer debt. We have the highest child poverty, the highest adult poverty, huge underemployment, a crumbling public works — but huge multi-billionaires and hugely profitable corporations.

"'I say to the American people: What’s your breaking point? When are you going to stop making excuses for yourself? When are you going to stop exaggerating these powers when you know you have the power in this country if you organize it?'"

American Fascism: Ralph Nader Decries How Big Business Has Taken Control of the U.S. Government | Democracy Now!

Ralph Nadar is somewhat delusional if he really imagines that organizing is going to solve the problems HE"S talking about.

Wishing it were so does not make it so.

Does he forget that Americans put a million people on the streets to end the war that continued for another 5 years?

This nation does not respond to populist movements unless the MASTERS created it first.

You know...like they CLEARLY DID in the case of the OCCUPY WALL STREET and the TEA PARTY movements?

To which Ralph might respond:

"The Constitution starts 'We the People', not We the Corporation. They don't even mention the corporation or a company in the Constitution.

"So why do they rule us?

"Because we have disempowered ourselves by making excuses for ourselves.

"Oh, it doesn't pay to vote, because it doesn't mean anything to us. Oh, why go to a city council meeting?

"It doesn't matter.

"That's exactly what the big boys want you to do.

"They'll pay you to be cynical if you don't do it free."

Ed...if you listen to or read the transcript from Part 2 of the interview I just quoted, Ralph throws out a few numbers like how many thousands of protesters outside of a handful of congressional field offices could influence the votes on some pretty big issues

Personally, I think we are better off to FLUSH as many Republicans AND Democrats as possible from congress in 2014 and continue FLUSHING every two years until we get a Second Constitutional convention without undue 1% influence.

McCarthyism Made Us Veer Away From a Systemic Doctrine for Change - Ralph Nader on RAI (1/3)

 

[eagle1462010]

The TEA Party has flushed some of those and will continue to do so...........

Dems, who knows............They talk the talk.......................but.............

 

[georgephillip]

Now that we have figured out that big business and big government are corrupt, when do we admit that we are all corrupt and what do we do about that?

We have to decide if those who acquire vast private fortunes are more corrupt than the rest of us:

"Albert Einstein said:

"A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of the truth.

"Indeed, scientists have shown that people will go to absurd lengths - and engage in mental gymnastics – in order to cling to their belief in what those in authority have said.

"Part of the reason so many are so vulnerable to naive belief in authority is that we evolved in small tribes … and we assume that the super-elites are just like us.

"In reality, there are millions of psychopaths in the world … and they are largely running D.C. and on Wall Street.

"These people have no hesitation in lying to promote their goals..."

"And studies show that the super-rich lie, cheat and steal more than the rest of us."

Albert Einstein: ?A Foolish Faith In Authority Is The Worst Enemy Of The Truth? | Global Research

 

[georgephillip]

The TEA Party has flushed some of those and will continue to do so...........

Dems, who knows............They talk the talk.......................but.............

The Tea Party replaces one specie of Republican with another.
Given the level of corruption in DC, injecting new political blood in the form of Libertarian or Green party candidates into the congress could make it much more difficult for moneyed interests to continue their stranglehold on US politics.

 

[eagle1462010]

The TEA Party has flushed some of those and will continue to do so...........

Dems, who knows............They talk the talk.......................but.............

The Tea Party replaces one specie of Republican with another.
Given the level of corruption in DC, injecting new political blood in the form of Libertarian or Green party candidates into the congress could make it much more difficult for moneyed interests to continue their stranglehold on US politics.

And the TEA Party wants a lot of things that the Libertarian's want as well............

The TEA Party wants true Conservatives and not those attached at the hip like the RINO's.............

Your last statement appears to state the TEA Party is a bad thing.............

Is it............

 

[Derideo_Te]

The TEA Party has flushed some of those and will continue to do so...........

Dems, who knows............They talk the talk.......................but.............

The Tea Party replaces one specie of Republican with another.
Given the level of corruption in DC, injecting new political blood in the form of Libertarian or Green party candidates into the congress could make it much more difficult for moneyed interests to continue their stranglehold on US politics.

And the TEA Party wants a lot of things that the Libertarian's want as well............

The TEA Party wants true Conservatives and not those attached at the hip like the RINO's.............

Your last statement appears to state the TEA Party is a bad thing.............

Is it............

The Tea Party goals of reducing corruption and spending are great in principle. In practice they have focused on petty partisan politics and destroyed their credibility. Hence their low ratings by We the People.

 

[georgephillip]

The TEA Party has flushed some of those and will continue to do so...........

Dems, who knows............They talk the talk.......................but.............

The Tea Party replaces one specie of Republican with another.
Given the level of corruption in DC, injecting new political blood in the form of Libertarian or Green party candidates into the congress could make it much more difficult for moneyed interests to continue their stranglehold on US politics.

And the TEA Party wants a lot of things that the Libertarian's want as well............

The TEA Party wants true Conservatives and not those attached at the hip like the RINO's.............

Your last statement appears to state the TEA Party is a bad thing.............

Is it............

It don't think its grass roots are bad.
Like a few leftist organizations, possibly including OWS, the Tea Party is vulnerable to capture from above by unseen economic elites.
By injecting third party candidates into the US Congress, we could begin a process that would limit the amount of influence Big Money has on our federal government; however, it's a valid question as to the influence wealth would have on the new members of the House and Senate.

 

[Iceman]

Who's to blame? The American people.

 

[bripat9643]

The Tea Party replaces one specie of Republican with another.
Given the level of corruption in DC, injecting new political blood in the form of Libertarian or Green party candidates into the congress could make it much more difficult for moneyed interests to continue their stranglehold on US politics.

And the TEA Party wants a lot of things that the Libertarian's want as well............

The TEA Party wants true Conservatives and not those attached at the hip like the RINO's.............

Your last statement appears to state the TEA Party is a bad thing.............

Is it............

The Tea Party goals of reducing corruption and spending are great in principle. In practice they have focused on petty partisan politics and destroyed their credibility. Hence their low ratings by We the People.

The claim that turds like you want to reduce spending simply isn't believable. The main reason you oppose the TEA party is the fact that they have actually tried to cut spending. That's what you are calling "partisan politics."

 

[bripat9643]

The Tea Party replaces one specie of Republican with another.
Given the level of corruption in DC, injecting new political blood in the form of Libertarian or Green party candidates into the congress could make it much more difficult for moneyed interests to continue their stranglehold on US politics.

And the TEA Party wants a lot of things that the Libertarian's want as well............

The TEA Party wants true Conservatives and not those attached at the hip like the RINO's.............

Your last statement appears to state the TEA Party is a bad thing.............

Is it............

It don't think its grass roots are bad.
Like a few leftist organizations, possibly including OWS, the Tea Party is vulnerable to capture from above by unseen economic elites.
By injecting third party candidates into the US Congress, we could begin a process that would limit the amount of influence Big Money has on our federal government; however, it's a valid question as to the influence wealth would have on the new members of the House and Senate.

Yeah, let's introduce a flood of leftwing third party candidates.

 

[georgephillip]

And the TEA Party wants a lot of things that the Libertarian's want as well............

The TEA Party wants true Conservatives and not those attached at the hip like the RINO's.............

Your last statement appears to state the TEA Party is a bad thing.............

Is it............

It don't think its grass roots are bad.
Like a few leftist organizations, possibly including OWS, the Tea Party is vulnerable to capture from above by unseen economic elites.
By injecting third party candidates into the US Congress, we could begin a process that would limit the amount of influence Big Money has on our federal government; however, it's a valid question as to the influence wealth would have on the new members of the House and Senate.

Yeah, let's introduce a flood of leftwing third party candidates.

That might be the only way for Republicans to remain relevant.

"Right-wing[edit]
This section includes any party that advocates positions associated with American conservatism, including both Old Right and New Right tendencies.

"America First Party
Christian Liberty Party
America's Party
Independent American Party"

Tell me what doesn't Change if one hundred Democrats AND one hundred Republicans are FLUSHED from DC in a single news cycle next November?

Third party (United States) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia