Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[NYcarbineer]

Most abortions are simply birth control. The women that get those do not seek abortions if they are illegal. They get them because they're easy and they're told it's acceptable to get them. Quit telling girls and women that, and remove the ease with which they can get them, of course the numbers drop.

The flaw in this thinking is the concept that all women who get abortions are in desperate situations. They aren't. They just screwed up and don't want to deal with a pregnancy. It isn't even about the baby. It's the pregnancy. Cuz anyone can get rid of a baby once it's born.

The European Union abortion rate is far lower than that in the U.S.

What's the difference in their abortion law(s)?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Read this, Immie:

"

The number and rate of abortions are in part dependent
on the accessibility of abortion services, which may
be affected by the number of providers, gestational limits,
cost and antiabortion harassment. The number of abortion
providers in the United States has been declining
steadily:* It peaked in 1982, at 2,900 facilities, and had
fallen to 1,800 by 2005.​

​

​

​

1 In that year, 87% of counties
lacked an abortion provider, and 35% of women aged
15–44 lived in those counties;1 some of these women may​

lack the time or resources to travel to a provider."

I think it's pretty obvious that when abortion isn't legal, the rate drops substantially.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/4304111.pdf

Well, when you consider that, according to StateHealthFacts.org (the Kaiser Family Foundation), the national abortion rate per 1,000 women (aged 15-44) is 16, while in South Dakota, which only has one abortion provider, it's 5, it seems obvious that if it's not available, women just live without them. By contrast, New York State had 31 per 1,000 women.

 

[JBeukema]

Most abortions are simply birth control. The women that get those do not seek abortions if they are illegal. They get them because they're easy and they're told it's acceptable to get them. Quit telling girls and women that, and remove the ease with which they can get them, of course the numbers drop.

The flaw in this thinking is the concept that all women who get abortions are in desperate situations. They aren't. They just screwed up and don't want to deal with a pregnancy. It isn't even about the baby. It's the pregnancy. Cuz anyone can get rid of a baby once it's born.

I have to disagree with you, Allie

Reality agrees with her

Woman is concerned about how having a baby could change her life 16%
Woman can't afford baby now 21%
Woman has problems with relationship or wants to avoid single parenthood 12%
Woman is unready for responsibility 21%
Woman doesn't want others to know she has had sex or is pregnant 1%
Woman is not mature enough, or is too young to have a child 11%
Woman has all the children she wanted, or has all grown-up children 8%
Husband or partner wants woman to have an abortion 1%
Fetus has possible health problem 3%
Woman has health problem 3%
Woman's parents want her to have abortion <1%
Woman was victim of rape or incest 1%
Other 3%

(Totals do not add to 100% because of rounding.)

Why Women Have Abortions

Before someone says it's a conservative source:

The Guttmacher Institute in 1968 was founded as the "Center for Family Planning Program Development", a semi-autonomous division of The Planned Parenthood Federation of America.

Guttmacher Institute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[NYcarbineer]

Most abortions are simply birth control. The women that get those do not seek abortions if they are illegal. They get them because they're easy and they're told it's acceptable to get them. Quit telling girls and women that, and remove the ease with which they can get them, of course the numbers drop.

The flaw in this thinking is the concept that all women who get abortions are in desperate situations. They aren't. They just screwed up and don't want to deal with a pregnancy. It isn't even about the baby. It's the pregnancy. Cuz anyone can get rid of a baby once it's born.

I have to disagree with you, Allie

Reality agrees with her

Woman is concerned about how having a baby could change her life 16%
Woman can't afford baby now 21%
Woman has problems with relationship or wants to avoid single parenthood 12%
Woman is unready for responsibility 21%
Woman doesn't want others to know she has had sex or is pregnant 1%
Woman is not mature enough, or is too young to have a child 11%
Woman has all the children she wanted, or has all grown-up children 8%
Husband or partner wants woman to have an abortion 1%
Fetus has possible health problem 3%
Woman has health problem 3%
Woman's parents want her to have abortion <1%
Woman was victim of rape or incest 1%
Other 3%

(Totals do not add to 100% because of rounding.)

Why Women Have Abortions

And how does forcing those women to have the baby, under threat of life imprisonment if they don't, make things better?

 

[JBeukema]

The same way threatening to lock me up if I shoot you in the face makes things better

Should all homicide be legal, or only killing people you don't want alive?

 

[Immanuel]

Read this, Immie:

"

The number and rate of abortions are in part dependent
on the accessibility of abortion services, which may
be affected by the number of providers, gestational limits,
cost and antiabortion harassment. The number of abortion
providers in the United States has been declining
steadily:* It peaked in 1982, at 2,900 facilities, and had
fallen to 1,800 by 2005.​

​

1 In that year, 87% of counties
lacked an abortion provider, and 35% of women aged
15&#8211;44 lived in those counties;1 some of these women may​

lack the time or resources to travel to a provider."

I think it's pretty obvious that when abortion isn't legal, the rate drops substantially.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/4304111.pdf

Dagnammit Allie! I'm getting old. Did you really need to make it so small and then use so many size commands that it will take 5 minutes to remove them?

I still do not agree with you. You make the claim that the number of abortions sky-rocketed after Roe became law. The only thing that sky-rocketed was the number of reported abortions. We have no way of accurately counting the unreported abortions either before or after Roe. For all we know, there may be 5 million abortions performed in the U.S. every year rather than the 1 million reported.

Also, this is propaganda by Guttmacher. They are trying to scare people into believing that if Roe were overturned abortions and access to them would fall. This is nothing but fear-mongering on the part of the left.

Immie

 

[Anguille]

You make the claim that the number of abortions sky-rocketed after Roe became law. The only thing that sky-rocketed was the number of reported abortions. We have no way of accurately counting the unreported abortions either before or after Roe.

True.

I imagine that the rate of infanticide per capita - I'm talking about genuine infanticide, not the misconception some anti choicers conflate it with - may have gone down after Roe also.

 

[AllieBaba]

I have to disagree with you, Allie

Reality agrees with her

Woman is concerned about how having a baby could change her life 16%
Woman can't afford baby now 21%
Woman has problems with relationship or wants to avoid single parenthood 12%
Woman is unready for responsibility 21%
Woman doesn't want others to know she has had sex or is pregnant 1%
Woman is not mature enough, or is too young to have a child 11%
Woman has all the children she wanted, or has all grown-up children 8%
Husband or partner wants woman to have an abortion 1%
Fetus has possible health problem 3%
Woman has health problem 3%
Woman's parents want her to have abortion <1%
Woman was victim of rape or incest 1%
Other 3%

(Totals do not add to 100% because of rounding.)

Why Women Have Abortions

Before someone says it's a conservative source:

The Guttmacher Institute in 1968 was founded as the "Center for Family Planning Program Development", a semi-autonomous division of The Planned Parenthood Federation of America.

Guttmacher Institute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lol..no, the Guttmacher Institute is definitely NOT conservative, and has a strong bias FOR the legality of abortion. But they're the only ones that gather the numbers. What numbers they are provided by PP. Of course THOSE numbers are completely fabricated, and the numbers STILL show that legalization of abortion did nothing except increase the rate of abortion to a ridiculous degree.

 

[AllieBaba]

Read this, Immie:

"

The number and rate of abortions are in part dependent
on the accessibility of abortion services, which may
be affected by the number of providers, gestational limits,
cost and antiabortion harassment. The number of abortion
providers in the United States has been declining
steadily:* It peaked in 1982, at 2,900 facilities, and had​

fallen to 1,800 by 2005.

1 In that year, 87% of counties

lacked an abortion provider, and 35% of women aged
15–44 lived in those counties;​

​

1 some of these women may
lack the time or resources to travel to a provider."

I think it's pretty obvious that when abortion isn't legal, the rate drops substantially.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/4304111.pdf
​

Dagnammit Allie! I'm getting old. Did you really need to make it so small and then use so many size commands that it will take 5 minutes to remove them?

I still do not agree with you. You make the claim that the number of abortions sky-rocketed after Roe became law. The only thing that sky-rocketed was the number of reported abortions. We have no way of accurately counting the unreported abortions either before or after Roe. For all we know, there may be 5 million abortions performed in the U.S. every year rather than the 1 million reported.

Also, this is propaganda by Guttmacher. They are trying to scare people into believing that if Roe were overturned abortions and access to them would fall. This is nothing but fear-mongering on the part of the left.

Immie​

I know, me too...it copied and pasted in that ridiculous font and working with my faulty keyboard, I opted not to fix it because I'd probably just delete everything or end up posting a fragment from some other topic in the middle of it.

It's not small in the link.

And the numbers of reported abortions NOW are no more reliable than the numbers of reported abortions then. EVERYBODY IN THE INDUSTRY AGREES that the abortion rate skyrocketed after Roe v. Wade. Everybody, Immie. Gottmacher is NOT motivated by the desire to increase numbers, when decreasing the numbers would prove the original claim of the pro-abortionists that legalized abortions would DECREASE the numbers of abortions.

I don't believe Gottmacher cooks their numbers. They don't need to, Planned Parenthood cooks theirs.

So really we have no way of knowing what the numbers are. I know very well that I know more people who have obtained abortions (and multiple abortions!) than my mother knew in her day. More people get abortions now because they're legal, they're easy, and they're local.

Put obstacles in the way and there will still be those who will go to any lengths (though it's unnecessary)..those people exist today. Botched abortions STILL kill women, and probably more than they used to. But everybody agrees that having legal abortions means a lot more abortions are taking place. There are lots of women who would not get an abortion if it was illegal. They either wouldn't get pregnant in the first place, or they'd just have the baby and deal with it.
​

 

[Immanuel]

Read this, Immie:

"

The number and rate of abortions are in part dependent
on the accessibility of abortion services, which may
be affected by the number of providers, gestational limits,
cost and antiabortion harassment. The number of abortion
providers in the United States has been declining
steadily:* It peaked in 1982, at 2,900 facilities, and had​

fallen to 1,800 by 2005.

1 In that year, 87% of counties

lacked an abortion provider, and 35% of women aged
15–44 lived in those counties;​

​

1 some of these women may
lack the time or resources to travel to a provider."

I think it's pretty obvious that when abortion isn't legal, the rate drops substantially.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/4304111.pdf
​

Dagnammit Allie! I'm getting old. Did you really need to make it so small and then use so many size commands that it will take 5 minutes to remove them?

I still do not agree with you. You make the claim that the number of abortions sky-rocketed after Roe became law. The only thing that sky-rocketed was the number of reported abortions. We have no way of accurately counting the unreported abortions either before or after Roe. For all we know, there may be 5 million abortions performed in the U.S. every year rather than the 1 million reported.

Also, this is propaganda by Guttmacher. They are trying to scare people into believing that if Roe were overturned abortions and access to them would fall. This is nothing but fear-mongering on the part of the left.

Immie​

I know, me too...it copied and pasted in that ridiculous font and working with my faulty keyboard, I opted not to fix it because I'd probably just delete everything or end up posting a fragment from some other topic in the middle of it.

It's not small in the link.

And the numbers of reported abortions NOW are no more reliable than the numbers of reported abortions then. EVERYBODY IN THE INDUSTRY AGREES that the abortion rate skyrocketed after Roe v. Wade. Everybody, Immie. Gottmacher is NOT motivated by the desire to increase numbers, when decreasing the numbers would prove the original claim of the pro-abortionists that legalized abortions would DECREASE the numbers of abortions.

I don't believe Gottmacher cooks their numbers. They don't need to, Planned Parenthood cooks theirs.

So really we have no way of knowing what the numbers are. I know very well that I know more people who have obtained abortions (and multiple abortions!) than my mother knew in her day. More people get abortions now because they're legal, they're easy, and they're local.

Put obstacles in the way and there will still be those who will go to any lengths (though it's unnecessary)..those people exist today. Botched abortions STILL kill women, and probably more than they used to. But everybody agrees that having legal abortions means a lot more abortions are taking place. There are lots of women who would not get an abortion if it was illegal. They either wouldn't get pregnant in the first place, or they'd just have the baby and deal with it.
​

I would agree, the numbers are most likely cooked by PP, but then AGI is an arm of PP so my guess is that they are fully aware of the possibility that many abortions are not reported.

Immie

 

[Cecilie1200]

Reality agrees with her

Woman is concerned about how having a baby could change her life 16%
Woman can't afford baby now 21%
Woman has problems with relationship or wants to avoid single parenthood 12%
Woman is unready for responsibility 21%
Woman doesn't want others to know she has had sex or is pregnant 1%
Woman is not mature enough, or is too young to have a child 11%
Woman has all the children she wanted, or has all grown-up children 8%
Husband or partner wants woman to have an abortion 1%
Fetus has possible health problem 3%
Woman has health problem 3%
Woman's parents want her to have abortion <1%
Woman was victim of rape or incest 1%
Other 3%

(Totals do not add to 100% because of rounding.)

Why Women Have Abortions

Before someone says it's a conservative source:

The Guttmacher Institute in 1968 was founded as the "Center for Family Planning Program Development", a semi-autonomous division of The Planned Parenthood Federation of America.

Guttmacher Institute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lol..no, the Guttmacher Institute is definitely NOT conservative, and has a strong bias FOR the legality of abortion. But they're the only ones that gather the numbers. What numbers they are provided by PP. Of course THOSE numbers are completely fabricated, and the numbers STILL show that legalization of abortion did nothing except increase the rate of abortion to a ridiculous degree.

The CDC also gathers numbers, and theirs closely coincide with the Guttmacher Institute.

 

[AllieBaba]

Before someone says it's a conservative source:


Guttmacher Institute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lol..no, the Guttmacher Institute is definitely NOT conservative, and has a strong bias FOR the legality of abortion. But they're the only ones that gather the numbers. What numbers they are provided by PP. Of course THOSE numbers are completely fabricated, and the numbers STILL show that legalization of abortion did nothing except increase the rate of abortion to a ridiculous degree.

The CDC also gathers numbers, and theirs closely coincide with the Guttmacher Institute.

Last I checked the CDC got their numbers from Gottmacher.

 

[Luissa]

Read this, Immie:

"

The number and rate of abortions are in part dependent
on the accessibility of abortion services, which may
be affected by the number of providers, gestational limits,
cost and antiabortion harassment. The number of abortion
providers in the United States has been declining
steadily:* It peaked in 1982, at 2,900 facilities, and had​

fallen to 1,800 by 2005.

1 In that year, 87% of counties

lacked an abortion provider, and 35% of women aged
15–44 lived in those counties;​

​

1 some of these women may
lack the time or resources to travel to a provider."

I think it's pretty obvious that when abortion isn't legal, the rate drops substantially.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/4304111.pdf
​

Dagnammit Allie! I'm getting old. Did you really need to make it so small and then use so many size commands that it will take 5 minutes to remove them?

I still do not agree with you. You make the claim that the number of abortions sky-rocketed after Roe became law. The only thing that sky-rocketed was the number of reported abortions. We have no way of accurately counting the unreported abortions either before or after Roe. For all we know, there may be 5 million abortions performed in the U.S. every year rather than the 1 million reported.

Also, this is propaganda by Guttmacher. They are trying to scare people into believing that if Roe were overturned abortions and access to them would fall. This is nothing but fear-mongering on the part of the left.

Immie​

I know, me too...it copied and pasted in that ridiculous font and working with my faulty keyboard, I opted not to fix it because I'd probably just delete everything or end up posting a fragment from some other topic in the middle of it.

It's not small in the link.

And the numbers of reported abortions NOW are no more reliable than the numbers of reported abortions then. EVERYBODY IN THE INDUSTRY AGREES that the abortion rate skyrocketed after Roe v. Wade. Everybody, Immie. Gottmacher is NOT motivated by the desire to increase numbers, when decreasing the numbers would prove the original claim of the pro-abortionists that legalized abortions would DECREASE the numbers of abortions.

I don't believe Gottmacher cooks their numbers. They don't need to, Planned Parenthood cooks theirs.

So really we have no way of knowing what the numbers are. I know very well that I know more people who have obtained abortions (and multiple abortions!) than my mother knew in her day. More people get abortions now because they're legal, they're easy, and they're local.

Put obstacles in the way and there will still be those who will go to any lengths (though it's unnecessary)..those people exist today. Botched abortions STILL kill women, and probably more than they used to. But everybody agrees that having legal abortions means a lot more abortions are taking place. There are lots of women who would not get an abortion if it was illegal. They either wouldn't get pregnant in the first place, or they'd just have the baby and deal with it.
​

or they would kill themselves, or do something that would kill the baby.
In a perfect world your theory would work.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Lol..no, the Guttmacher Institute is definitely NOT conservative, and has a strong bias FOR the legality of abortion. But they're the only ones that gather the numbers. What numbers they are provided by PP. Of course THOSE numbers are completely fabricated, and the numbers STILL show that legalization of abortion did nothing except increase the rate of abortion to a ridiculous degree.

The CDC also gathers numbers, and theirs closely coincide with the Guttmacher Institute.

Last I checked the CDC got their numbers from Gottmacher.

No, they don't. They get their health statistics from state and local health departments.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Dagnammit Allie! I'm getting old. Did you really need to make it so small and then use so many size commands that it will take 5 minutes to remove them?

I still do not agree with you. You make the claim that the number of abortions sky-rocketed after Roe became law. The only thing that sky-rocketed was the number of reported abortions. We have no way of accurately counting the unreported abortions either before or after Roe. For all we know, there may be 5 million abortions performed in the U.S. every year rather than the 1 million reported.

Also, this is propaganda by Guttmacher. They are trying to scare people into believing that if Roe were overturned abortions and access to them would fall. This is nothing but fear-mongering on the part of the left.

Immie

I know, me too...it copied and pasted in that ridiculous font and working with my faulty keyboard, I opted not to fix it because I'd probably just delete everything or end up posting a fragment from some other topic in the middle of it.

It's not small in the link.

And the numbers of reported abortions NOW are no more reliable than the numbers of reported abortions then. EVERYBODY IN THE INDUSTRY AGREES that the abortion rate skyrocketed after Roe v. Wade. Everybody, Immie. Gottmacher is NOT motivated by the desire to increase numbers, when decreasing the numbers would prove the original claim of the pro-abortionists that legalized abortions would DECREASE the numbers of abortions.

I don't believe Gottmacher cooks their numbers. They don't need to, Planned Parenthood cooks theirs.

So really we have no way of knowing what the numbers are. I know very well that I know more people who have obtained abortions (and multiple abortions!) than my mother knew in her day. More people get abortions now because they're legal, they're easy, and they're local.

Put obstacles in the way and there will still be those who will go to any lengths (though it's unnecessary)..those people exist today. Botched abortions STILL kill women, and probably more than they used to. But everybody agrees that having legal abortions means a lot more abortions are taking place. There are lots of women who would not get an abortion if it was illegal. They either wouldn't get pregnant in the first place, or they'd just have the baby and deal with it.
[/LEFT]

or they would kill themselves, or do something that would kill the baby.
In a perfect world your theory would work.

I'm glad to know that you think women being too pig-stupid to have a sense of self-preservation is a major problem in America.

 

[AllieBaba]

The CDC also gathers numbers, and theirs closely coincide with the Guttmacher Institute.

Last I checked the CDC got their numbers from Gottmacher.

No, they don't. They get their health statistics from state and local health departments.

Ok, Cecilie...look at the reference list on their report:

"
References

1. Smith JC. Abortion surveillance report, hospital abortions, annual summary 1969. Atlanta, GA: US Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, Public Health Service, Health Services and Mental Health Administration, National Communicable Disease Center; 1970.
2. CDC. Abortion surveillance---United States, 2005. MMWR 2008;57(No. SS-13).
3. Henshaw SK, Kost K. Trends in the characteristics of women obtaining abortions, 1974 to 2004. New York, NY: Guttmacher Institute; 2008. Available at http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2008/09/23/TrendsWomenAbortions-wTables.pdf . Accessed November 10, 2010.
4. Jones RK, Kost K, Singh S, Henshaw SK, Finer LB. Trends in abortion in the United States. Clin Obstet Gynecol 2009;52:119--29.
5. Ventura SJ, Abma JC, Mosher WD, Henshaw SK. Estimated pregnancy rates by outcome for the United States, 1990--2005: an update. Natl Vital Stat Rep 2009;58(4).
6. Ventura SJ, Mosher WD, Curtin SC, Abma JC, Henshaw S. Trends in pregnancies and pregnancy rates by outcome: estimates for the United States, 1976--1996. Vital Health Stat 2000;21(56).
7. Henshaw SK, Kost K. Abortion patients in 1994--1995: characteristics and contraceptive use. Fam Plann Perspect 1996;28:140--7, 58
8. Henshaw SK, Silverman J. The characteristics and prior contraceptive use of U.S. abortion patients. Fam Plann Perspect 1988;20:158--68.
9. Jones RK, Darroch JE, Henshaw SK. Patterns in the socioeconomic characteristics of women obtaining abortions in 2000--2001. Perspect Sex Reprod Health 2002;34:226--35.
10. Jones RK, Finer LB, Singh S. Characteristics of U.S. abortion patients, 2008. New York, NY: Guttmacher Institute. Available at http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/US-Abortion-Patients.pdf . Accessed November 10, 2010.
11. Jones RK, Kooistra K. Abortion incidence and access to services in the United States, 2008. Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health 2011;43:41-50.
12. CDC. Abortion surveillance---United States, 2006. MMWR 2009;58(No. SS-8).
13. CDC. Abortion surveillance, 1981. Atlanta, GA: US Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, Public Health Service, CDC; 1985.
14. Guttmacher Institute. State policies in brief: abortion reporting requirements. New York, NY: Guttmacher Institute. Available at http://www.guttmacher.com/statecenter/spibs/spib_ARR.pdf . Accessed November 10, 2010. "

Abortion Surveillance --- United States, 2007

So as you see, the CDC gets many if not most of its numbers from Gottmacher.

Thank you. Thank you. Flowers are not necessary.

 

[Luissa]

I know, me too...it copied and pasted in that ridiculous font and working with my faulty keyboard, I opted not to fix it because I'd probably just delete everything or end up posting a fragment from some other topic in the middle of it.

It's not small in the link.

And the numbers of reported abortions NOW are no more reliable than the numbers of reported abortions then. EVERYBODY IN THE INDUSTRY AGREES that the abortion rate skyrocketed after Roe v. Wade. Everybody, Immie. Gottmacher is NOT motivated by the desire to increase numbers, when decreasing the numbers would prove the original claim of the pro-abortionists that legalized abortions would DECREASE the numbers of abortions.

I don't believe Gottmacher cooks their numbers. They don't need to, Planned Parenthood cooks theirs.

So really we have no way of knowing what the numbers are. I know very well that I know more people who have obtained abortions (and multiple abortions!) than my mother knew in her day. More people get abortions now because they're legal, they're easy, and they're local.

Put obstacles in the way and there will still be those who will go to any lengths (though it's unnecessary)..those people exist today. Botched abortions STILL kill women, and probably more than they used to. But everybody agrees that having legal abortions means a lot more abortions are taking place. There are lots of women who would not get an abortion if it was illegal. They either wouldn't get pregnant in the first place, or they'd just have the baby and deal with it.
[/LEFT]

or they would kill themselves, or do something that would kill the baby.
In a perfect world your theory would work.

I'm glad to know that you think women being too pig-stupid to have a sense of self-preservation is a major problem in America.

It has nothing to do with being pig stupid. You also shouldn't judge people you know nothing about. You only know the numbers, and what you believe, you don't know why someone had abortion. Statistics are just statistics.

 

[manifold]

Seems to me that it's the pro-oppression crowd that are the ones struggling with honesty here.


But whatcha gonna do?

 

[Anguille]

I know, me too...it copied and pasted in that ridiculous font and working with my faulty keyboard, I opted not to fix it because I'd probably just delete everything or end up posting a fragment from some other topic in the middle of it.

It's not small in the link.

And the numbers of reported abortions NOW are no more reliable than the numbers of reported abortions then. EVERYBODY IN THE INDUSTRY AGREES that the abortion rate skyrocketed after Roe v. Wade. Everybody, Immie. Gottmacher is NOT motivated by the desire to increase numbers, when decreasing the numbers would prove the original claim of the pro-abortionists that legalized abortions would DECREASE the numbers of abortions.

I don't believe Gottmacher cooks their numbers. They don't need to, Planned Parenthood cooks theirs.

So really we have no way of knowing what the numbers are. I know very well that I know more people who have obtained abortions (and multiple abortions!) than my mother knew in her day. More people get abortions now because they're legal, they're easy, and they're local.

Put obstacles in the way and there will still be those who will go to any lengths (though it's unnecessary)..those people exist today. Botched abortions STILL kill women, and probably more than they used to. But everybody agrees that having legal abortions means a lot more abortions are taking place. There are lots of women who would not get an abortion if it was illegal. They either wouldn't get pregnant in the first place, or they'd just have the baby and deal with it.
[/LEFT]

or they would kill themselves, or do something that would kill the baby.
In a perfect world your theory would work.

I'm glad to know that you think women being too pig-stupid to have a sense of self-preservation is a major problem in America.

I'm not glad to know you haven't an ounce of compassion in your entire body. It saddens me.

 

[Anguille]

or they would kill themselves, or do something that would kill the baby.
In a perfect world your theory would work.

I'm glad to know that you think women being too pig-stupid to have a sense of self-preservation is a major problem in America.

It has nothing to do with being pig stupid. You also shouldn't judge people you know nothing about. You only know the numbers, and what you believe, you don't know why someone had abortion. Statistics are just statistics.

Passing judgement is SoSilly's raison d'être.

She probably only thinks that women who have killed themselves because abortion was unavailable or unacceptable to them are not deserving of consideration because, afterall, they are "baby killers" too.

My friend's grandmother poisoned herself after her drunk of a husband raped her one more time, causing her to become pregnant for the 8th time. They don't really know if the poisoning was intended for suicide or to miscarry the fetus but either way it was tragic.