Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[AllieBaba]

And why do they revel in stupidity?

 

[Vast LWC]

One never becomes human. Humans have human children. The new organism is human from creation. This is a biological fact.

There is no more room for debate or opinion on that than there is over whether Earth is flat.

So are fingernail clippings. That is a "biological fact".

No, it's not. A human being is a human organism. Fingernail clippings are not organisms of any kind.

Why can't you people ever be honest?

Why do insist on lying?

A small collection of cells is not a human being.

Requirements of being a human being include a body formed in a certain way, most importantly a brain, that can perform Thought Processes.

Otherwise, any body part cloned in a jar from stem cells is a "human being", and that's utter BS.

You're arguing a very real argument using semantics, just so that you can try and prove your hyperbolic, ultra-partisan point.

 

[JBeukema]

So are fingernail clippings. That is a "biological fact".

No, it's not. A human being is a human organism. Fingernail clippings are not organisms of any kind.

Why can't you people ever be honest?

Why do insist on lying?

A small collection of cells is not a human being.

We start out as a single cell, genius. Then we become two, then four, then eight...

Go ask a librarian where babies come from

Requirements of being a human being include a body formed in a certain way, and, most importantly, Thought Processes.

No, it doesn't. You'll find no such requirements in any biology textbook or lecture on genetics.

Otherwise, any body part cloned in a jar from stem cells is a "human being", and that's utter BS.

You don't seem to grasp how cloning works any better than you grasp biology.

If I'm so hyper-partisan, maybe you can tell me what party I belong to? The county registrar doesn't seem to have me belonging to any of them

 

[JBeukema]

41 whole pages of denying basic biology before; now we see the first inklings of a different argument

 

[taichiliberal]

If the anti-abortion folk would work to mandate sex education and birth control availabilty in our society the way we do sports trivia and automobile ownership, then abortion would indeed be a rarity that would STILL be a private choice by the individual.

Instead, you get a bunch of hysterical, idealogical clowns with mantras like "sex educaton promotes promiscuity and STD's" and the like over the decades.

Bottom line: you don't like what your neighbor is doing in their bedroom or with their doctor, THEN MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS....because all the racial, class, religious and social prejudices will be waiting for all those new borns who no one wanted or want to know about as they grow up.

 

[JBeukema]

If the anti-abortion folk would work to mandate sex education and birth control availabilty in our society

By that reasoning, big cities full of free condoms should have no abortions

That's not the reality

1/3 of abortions are repeat business

Your premise is bullshit

 

[Vast LWC]

We start out as a single cell, genius. Then we become two, then four, then eight...

Go ask a librarian where babies come from

No, we start out as a sperm and an egg.

Requirements of being a human being include a body formed in a certain way, and, most importantly, Thought Processes.

No, it doesn't. You'll find no such requirements in any biology textbook or lecture on genetics.

Funny then that the first place I looked, Wiki, said this:

Humans, known taxonomically as Homo sapiens[3][4] (Latin for "wise man" or "knowing man"),[5] are the only living species in the Homo genus of bipedal primates in Hominidae, the great ape family. Anatomically modern humans originated in Africa about 200,000 years ago, reaching full behavioral modernity around 50,000 years ago.[6]

Humans have a highly developed brain, capable of abstract reasoning, language, introspection, and problem solving. This mental capability, combined with an erect body carriage that frees the hands for manipulating objects, has allowed humans to make far greater use of tools than any other living species on Earth. Other higher-level thought processes of humans, such as self-awareness, rationality, and sapience,[7][8][9] are considered to be defining features of what constitutes a "person".

But wait, there's more:

From the Free Dictionary:

human being -

Noun 1. any living or extinct member of the family Hominidae characterized by superior intelligence, articulate speech, and erect carriage

From Merriam-Webster:

: a bipedal primate mammal (Homo sapiens) : man; broadly : hominid

I can provide much, much more evidence if you'd like.

Otherwise, any body part cloned in a jar from stem cells is a "human being", and that's utter BS.

You don't seem to grasp how cloning works any better than you grasp biology.

If I'm so hyper-partisan, maybe you can tell me what party I belong to? The county registrar doesn't seem to have me belonging to any of them

Wow, you're not registered with a party, that's so interesting, because being right or left wing hyperpartisan definitely requires party registration (not).

 

[JBeukema]

We start out as a single cell, genius. Then we become two, then four, then eight...

Go ask a librarian where babies come from

No, we start out as a sperm and an egg.

Those are cells which merge to create us. Neither is itself an organism. Prior to the union of the two, we do not exist.


Biology 101

Funny then that the first place I looked, Wiki, said this:

Humans have a highly developed brain,

So newborns aren't human? After all, human females have breasts, but not when they're first born

I guess that means Democrats and any child under the age, say, 17 isn't human

: a bipedal primate mammal

So war vets who lose a leg cease to be human?

Why can't you people ever be honest?


Or are you just that stupid?

 

[Vast LWC]

But wait, I'm not quite done.

From Biology Online :

Human

Definition

noun, plural: humans

A bipedal primate belonging to the genus Homo, especially Homo sapiens.


adjective

Of, pertaining to, having the attributes of, a being belonging to the species of the Homo sapiens.


Supplement

In taxonomy, humans belong to the family Hominidae, of the Primates, under class Mammalia of phylum Chordata. They are identified by the highly developed brain that confers advanced skills in abstract reasoning, articulate language, self-awareness, problem solving, and sapience. They are bipedal primates in having an erect carriage. They are skillful in handling objects with their hands.

Humans may also be described as social animals capable of showing sympathy with other beings, and living life with (inherent) values and ethics.

 

[Zoom-boing]

You didn't actually show the courage to answer my question. What penalty do we impose on women having 1st trimester abortions, including the use of something like RU486, once you have outlawed abortion according to your principles?

Where did I ever say abortion will be outlawed? You're putting words in my mouth that I never spoke then expect me to answer a question based upon that? Please.

Why can't any of you pro-choice types admit that abortion ends/destroys/kills another human being? Why must you hide behind blobs of tissue, viability and the like?

Why haven't you answered JB's questions?

Here, try answering this:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/161946-one-question.html

or this:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/161947-simple-question.html

You believe that abortion is the killing of an innocent person, and yet you wouldn't make it illegal?

What the fuck is that? What's your position on infanticide? Should that also not be a crime?

(I swear you can certainly measure the irrationality of the anti-abortion crowd simply by the irrational shit they throw around, jeezus.)

Will making abortion illegal reduce the number of abortions? If yes, then make it illegal; if no, then leave it legal with restrictions. Sorry to disappoint but the goal isn't to punish the woman, it is about reducing the number of abortions and saving those innocent lives. Figures you couldn't see that on your own.

I notice you've dodge the questions asked of you. Typical.

 

[Vast LWC]

Those are cells which merge to create us. Neither is itself an organism. Prior to the union of the two, we do not exist.

That's a completely arbitrary and subjective interpretation, and does not jibe with scientific definitions.

Biology 101

Funny then that the first place I looked, Wiki, said this:

So newborns aren't human? After all, human females have breasts, but not when they're first born

I guess that means Democrats and any child under the age, say, 17 isn't human

: a bipedal primate mammal

So war vets who lose a leg cease to be human?

Why can't you people ever be honest?


Or are you just that stupid?

And all of those are completely irrational arguments, as those are all examples of fully formed humans that are simply missing one attribute due to circumstance.

There is a large difference between that and a collection of cells that never formed into a human.

You might as well say water and carbon molecules are human beings, because they one day may form one.

A POTENTIAL to be something does not confer the attributes of that thing onto the substance in question.

 

[JBeukema]

Those are cells which merge to create us. Neither is itself an organism. Prior to the union of the two, we do not exist.

That's a completely arbitrary and subjective interpretation, and does not jibe with scientific definitions.

Wrong. An organism can't exist before it comes into existence. Nothing can be that wish is non-existent.

A gamete is a cell belonging to a parent.

When merged with its counterpart, it forms a new organism.

That organism is alive and, if the gametes are form human parents, human.

This creation of a new living human being, by the very meaning of the words the moment a human life begins.

And all of those are completely irrational arguments,

Yet you people keep repeating them

as those are all examples of fully formed humans

As opposed to someone born missing a leg? Or someone who hasn't undergone puberty?

that are simply missing one attribute due to circumstance.

There is a large difference between that and a collection of cells that never formed into a human.

You're trying to play word games because you can't face what you advocate. No biology textbook and no biologist or geneticist- nor anyone with the slightest bit of knowledge of the subject- is buying it.

 

[Cecilie1200]

...and then you go on to accuse anyone who has an abortion of murder,

Do cite. I've never called anyone here a murderer for having an abortion. Some of them do seem to believe themselves to be murderers, though, judging by their inability to admit what they've done and defend what it is they advocate.

If it's not murder, if their positions can be justified, why can't they face what they've done?

How about this:

To 'abort' a pregnancy is to bring about the end of those physiological and biological processes that identify this human organism as alive- it is to bring about the child's death.

Sound familiar?

A Rose by any other name...

Well, at least YOU are willing to admit that they're morally equivalent.

However, I believe JB is well aware that the word "murder" is a legal term, not a medical or moral one, and that abortion is - at the moment - legal. And I believe that is why he very specifically did NOT use it. Which means that your accusation of him is false in letter AND in spirit: what he said was technically, factually accurate, reasoned and unemotional, and completely honest.

Just because you don't LIKE having it pointed out that abortion is bringing about the death of a child doesn't make it a lie.

 

[Cecilie1200]

You wouldn't call someone who killed their 2 year old child a murderer?

You tell me. Is it murder?

Or is that not old enough for it to be wrong?

A sperm is also living material, with the same DNA as a human, so is an egg.

Which means, by your logic, that every time someone masturbates or menstruates, they are "Murderers".

Ahh, the ever-popular "I'm too uneducated to know the definition of 'organism'" argument. I wonder if it would be possible to sue the Department of Education for peopling the nation with such a bunch of scientific illiterates. Just the annoyance factor alone should deserve some punitive reward.

 

[JBeukema]

You tell me. Is it murder?

Or is that not old enough for it to be wrong?

A sperm is also living material, with the same DNA as a human, so is an egg.

Which means, by your logic, that every time someone masturbates or menstruates, they are "Murderers".

Ahh, the ever-popular "I'm too uneducated to know the definition of 'organism'" argument. I wonder if it would be possible to sue the Department of Education for peopling the nation with such a bunch of scientific illiterates. Just the annoyance factor alone should deserve some punitive reward.

http://royalsociety.org/uploadedFil...rts/2011-03-28-Knowledge-networks-nations.pdf

 

[Cecilie1200]

A sperm is also living material, with the same DNA as a human, so is an egg.

Which means, by your logic, that every time someone masturbates or menstruates, they are "Murderers".

Today's vocabulary words:

cell
organism

You are to write a 200-word essay detailing the relation between the two. This assignment is due back when you come to class tomorrow.

Sweet, here's some vocabulary words for you:

Zygote
Fetus
Child
ultra-partisan
HYPERBOLE

I'll give you my essay when you give me yours. K?

Zygote - : a cell formed by the union of two gametes; broadly : the developing individual produced from such a cell

Fetus - : an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth

Child - a : an unborn or recently born person

Ultra-partisan - Vast LWC

Hyperbole - Accusing someone of making statements they never made because you don't like their point.

What was there about these definitions that you thought was going to HELP your position?

 

[AllieBaba]

What bothers me is they obviously have the internet at their fingertips...and they refuse to look shit up, or they do look it up and then lie about it.

Either way. I'm equally alarmed by people who argue politics with exactly ZERO knowledge of history, and zero desire to learn.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Where anyone stands on the is depended on when you think one becomes human.

One never becomes human. Humans have human children. The new organism is human from creation. This is a biological fact.

There is no more room for debate or opinion on that than there is over whether Earth is flat.

So are fingernail clippings. That is a "biological fact".

But really, nothing I say is going to affect your hyperbolic statements, so there's no point.

It's a biological fact that fingernail clippings are what? Organisms? Where did YOU go to school?

 

[AllieBaba]

School? I don't need school to teach me this! After all, God & I create life when I will it!

 

[Cecilie1200]

One never becomes human. Humans have human children. The new organism is human from creation. This is a biological fact.

There is no more room for debate or opinion on that than there is over whether Earth is flat.

So are fingernail clippings. That is a "biological fact".

No, it's not. A human being is a human organism. Fingernail clippings are not organisms of any kind.

Why can't you people ever be honest?

Just for the record, fingernails aren't actually LIVING tissue, either, even before you cut them. Fingernails and hair are made up of dead cells, which is why it doesn't hurt to cut them.