Why do the God-haters persist?

[Boss]

Here is where you seem to have a problem. You are starting from the point that spiritual connection is an inherent human behavior, without actually defining it, then expecting others to accept that hypothesis. Can you describe the behavior of spiritual connection? Since you say that beliefs are a manifestation of spiritual connection, but spiritual connection is a human behavioral attribute, what exactly IS that attribute? You keep saying humans have this connection, but what does that actually mean? Do humans feel something with a sense we don't realize we have? Is that sense a part of our physical bodies or some spiritual attribute in humans? Does this connection mean the physical and the spiritual can interact, and if so, wouldn't that imply that it is possible for humans to at some point observe, test, and define the spiritual through physical scientific means?

Well I thought I had defined it way back in the OP or at least the first page, but let me do it again for clarification. Human spirituality is the intrinsic awareness humans have of something greater than self which can't be physically defined. So that's what it means and that's what it is. Because it's not physical in nature, humans have a hard time grasping it or comprehending it completely, so they create incarnations of "god" or various religions to help them better understand this thing they are connecting with.

Yes, I very much do believe that we may one day be able to observe, test and define things that are "spiritual" through physical science. In fact, haven't we already done so in many instances? (Movement of the Sun and Moon, heliocentricity, rain, etc.) Currently, scientist are working on quantum physics and string theory, which involve the possibility of other universes and dimensions where our laws of physics and nature may not apply. Could be that "spiritual nature" is simply another dimension hovering just above our own plane of reality that we can't see or confirm physically?

You say that science demonstrates that spiritual connection is not superficial or imaginary but provide no actual scientific evidence of this. You've attempted to connect evolution to your ill-defined behavioral attribute without actually sensibly following evolutionary theory.

But I did. Our most advanced and sophisticated species has not very likely adopted some superficial and imaginary belief in something that isn't real for all of our existence, by which it has garnered inspiration and courage to do the otherwise impossible and achieve the things man has accomplished. If we have, it's the most exceptional and extraordinary mind fuck in the history of nature. Since we don't observe other species adopting similar superficial attributes which have no meaning yet cause great benefits, we have to conclude that's probably not what's happening with humans and spiritual connection. All I did was point out that even the Darwinian theories of natural selection can't support this argument of an 'imagined' spiritual connection without reason or fundamental purpose.

 

[Boss]

You have debunked nothing. Earliest religions specifically explained how things happened and attributed anything unknown to a god.

They also attributed things known to a god, and they still do. God created the Sun, set the Earth in orbit around it, gave the Earth a Moon and seasons where we have tides and climates which enable life that God created. It doesn't matter if the "how" is explained by science, God still did it.

If you can produce a comprehensive list then they are obviously in a very tiny minority.

WTF?

No one has said that science was invented to explain away religion.

Really? That hasn't been said in 50-gazillion different ways here??? What thread are you reading?

No one has ever said religion is meaningless.

Really? Well let me be the first to say it then! Religions are meaningless! They are merely humans attempting to understand their intrinsic connection to spiritual nature. Now, spiritual nature is very real and important to human beings.

The false can also be meaningful and beneficial. It doesn't make it true.

You're confusing yourself again. If I could prove God is true, we wouldn't be discussing this. The argument was, can anything be "meaningless" and also be "beneficial"? The logical answer is NO.

 

[thebrucebeat]

You have debunked nothing. Earliest religions specifically explained how things happened and attributed anything unknown to a god.

They also attributed things known to a god, and they still do. God created the Sun, set the Earth in orbit around it, gave the Earth a Moon and seasons where we have tides and climates which enable life that God created. It doesn't matter if the "how" is explained by science, God still did it.

If you can produce a comprehensive list then they are obviously in a very tiny minority.

WTF?

Really? That hasn't been said in 50-gazillion different ways here??? What thread are you reading?

No one has ever said religion is meaningless.

Really? Well let me be the first to say it then! Religions are meaningless! They are merely humans attempting to understand their intrinsic connection to spiritual nature. Now, spiritual nature is very real and important to human beings.

The false can also be meaningful and beneficial. It doesn't make it true.

You're confusing yourself again. If I could prove God is true, we wouldn't be discussing this. The argument was, can anything be "meaningless" and also be "beneficial"? The logical answer is NO.

Ah, the "God did it, that settles it" defense.
Convincing!
If your list is comprehensive that means it includes all that believe.
I'm afraid I won't be able to do that with those that don't. It would take all the bandwidth the site has available.
No one has said science had the purpose of undermining faith. That was unequivocally the result (no more thunder god) but it wasn't the goal. Silly proposition.
Your spiritual connection, I'm sure, is very meaningful to you. Unfortunately, it doesn't make it real.
YOUR argument was about it being meaningful. You are arguing with yourself. No one else made that argument.
The rest of us are discussing whether or not it has any validity.
I actually think you may be insane.

 

[Montrovant]

Here is where you seem to have a problem. You are starting from the point that spiritual connection is an inherent human behavior, without actually defining it, then expecting others to accept that hypothesis. Can you describe the behavior of spiritual connection? Since you say that beliefs are a manifestation of spiritual connection, but spiritual connection is a human behavioral attribute, what exactly IS that attribute? You keep saying humans have this connection, but what does that actually mean? Do humans feel something with a sense we don't realize we have? Is that sense a part of our physical bodies or some spiritual attribute in humans? Does this connection mean the physical and the spiritual can interact, and if so, wouldn't that imply that it is possible for humans to at some point observe, test, and define the spiritual through physical scientific means?

Well I thought I had defined it way back in the OP or at least the first page, but let me do it again for clarification. Human spirituality is the intrinsic awareness humans have of something greater than self which can't be physically defined. So that's what it means and that's what it is. Because it's not physical in nature, humans have a hard time grasping it or comprehending it completely, so they create incarnations of "god" or various religions to help them better understand this thing they are connecting with.

Yes, I very much do believe that we may one day be able to observe, test and define things that are "spiritual" through physical science. In fact, haven't we already done so in many instances? (Movement of the Sun and Moon, heliocentricity, rain, etc.) Currently, scientist are working on quantum physics and string theory, which involve the possibility of other universes and dimensions where our laws of physics and nature may not apply. Could be that "spiritual nature" is simply another dimension hovering just above our own plane of reality that we can't see or confirm physically?

You say that science demonstrates that spiritual connection is not superficial or imaginary but provide no actual scientific evidence of this. You've attempted to connect evolution to your ill-defined behavioral attribute without actually sensibly following evolutionary theory.

But I did. Our most advanced and sophisticated species has not very likely adopted some superficial and imaginary belief in something that isn't real for all of our existence, by which it has garnered inspiration and courage to do the otherwise impossible and achieve the things man has accomplished. If we have, it's the most exceptional and extraordinary mind fuck in the history of nature. Since we don't observe other species adopting similar superficial attributes which have no meaning yet cause great benefits, we have to conclude that's probably not what's happening with humans and spiritual connection. All I did was point out that even the Darwinian theories of natural selection can't support this argument of an 'imagined' spiritual connection without reason or fundamental purpose.

What is the sense we use to come by this awareness? Is there a physical organ which provides our ability to sense the spiritual? You say people have this inherent awareness despite the fact that the awareness takes many different forms and some don't seem to have it at all.

Evolution is not a matter of becoming 'advanced'. It is about survivability and propagation. If a particular attribute is 'simpler' yet helps a creature reproduce, that attribute is more likely to continue within the species. The idea that evolution is a linear path from simplistic life to advanced life is a common fallacy.

Why you continuously harp on the lack of spiritual beliefs in other animals I don't understand. Of course we don't see other animals manifest those kinds of beliefs in response to spiritual nature, as you put it. Those animals don't have complex language or ritual as humans do (that we know of) and don't have the intellectual capacity to understand the concepts involved. In fact, I don't believe humanity has any evidence that any other species ascribes meaning to anything at all. That is a human trait. You've agreed that humans can think and reason in ways no other animal can, yet fail to see that our imagination is tied to our intelligence and, as such, leaves the possibility of creating meaning where none exists. Since you have as much as said that religions are created by man, and since religion has existed for a large majority of our history, that strikes me as incongruous. If man can imagine religion in such numbers, for so long, why could we not do the same for spiritual nature? Again, I'm not even attempting to argue that spiritual nature doesn't exist, merely that the possibility that humanity has invented the various spiritual beliefs it has held is not contradicted by science or logic.

There may be some kind of spiritual connection shared by all humanity, there may not. Until and unless the spiritual can be clearly defined and understood, perhaps observed, that existence is as open to question as any incarnation of god.

 

[GISMYS]

BELIEVERS! know and expect to be attacked if you post GOD'S WORD=ETERNAL TRUTH. Unbelievers and false religious minions of satan hate GOD and GOD'S WORD = ETERNAL TRUTH. Against JESUS They screamed and gnashed their teeth crying ban him from the temple,then CRUCIFY HIM!!! CRUCIFY HIM!! Pilate knew JESUS was inocent but he wanted to please the people,so he washed his hands and said ," you crucify him but I find him inocent"!!! ==The world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19"If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.. John 15:18=== JESUS says=='Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'" Revelation 10:18-21

 

[orogenicman]

Do you honestly think that the first snake head idol, created some 70,000 years ago...

Nonsense. The world is no older than 10,000 years.

70,000 years old?

Next you'll tell me that there wasn't a world wide flood that carved out the Grand Canyon.

I'm on to you and your Satan-led ways.

 

[orogenicman]

I would love to go back in time and see when man first invented god. When he told his friends his concept didn't they look at him like he was crazy? Maybe he was a person of power and influence and the smartest guy in the village so instead of telling people he didn't know he came up with god to explain droughts, floods, death, etc. As George Carlin said it is the absolute greatest bullshit story ever invented.

I am of the opinion that the belief in god is an emotional reaction to the innate primate fear of angry alpha males.

 

[thanatos144]

I would love to go back in time and see when man first invented god. When he told his friends his concept didn't they look at him like he was crazy? Maybe he was a person of power and influence and the smartest guy in the village so instead of telling people he didn't know he came up with god to explain droughts, floods, death, etc. As George Carlin said it is the absolute greatest bullshit story ever invented.

I am of the opinion that the belief in god is an emotional reaction to the innate primate fear of angry alpha males.

Your opinion is wrong.

 

[GISMYS]

God is programed into human DNA.Mankind worldwide for all time has known in his heart there is God. Man has all of creation,life as proof of God, you have no excuse!!!

 

[Boss]

Here is where you seem to have a problem. You are starting from the point that spiritual connection is an inherent human behavior, without actually defining it, then expecting others to accept that hypothesis. Can you describe the behavior of spiritual connection? Since you say that beliefs are a manifestation of spiritual connection, but spiritual connection is a human behavioral attribute, what exactly IS that attribute? You keep saying humans have this connection, but what does that actually mean? Do humans feel something with a sense we don't realize we have? Is that sense a part of our physical bodies or some spiritual attribute in humans? Does this connection mean the physical and the spiritual can interact, and if so, wouldn't that imply that it is possible for humans to at some point observe, test, and define the spiritual through physical scientific means?

Well I thought I had defined it way back in the OP or at least the first page, but let me do it again for clarification. Human spirituality is the intrinsic awareness humans have of something greater than self which can't be physically defined. So that's what it means and that's what it is. Because it's not physical in nature, humans have a hard time grasping it or comprehending it completely, so they create incarnations of "god" or various religions to help them better understand this thing they are connecting with.

Yes, I very much do believe that we may one day be able to observe, test and define things that are "spiritual" through physical science. In fact, haven't we already done so in many instances? (Movement of the Sun and Moon, heliocentricity, rain, etc.) Currently, scientist are working on quantum physics and string theory, which involve the possibility of other universes and dimensions where our laws of physics and nature may not apply. Could be that "spiritual nature" is simply another dimension hovering just above our own plane of reality that we can't see or confirm physically?

You say that science demonstrates that spiritual connection is not superficial or imaginary but provide no actual scientific evidence of this. You've attempted to connect evolution to your ill-defined behavioral attribute without actually sensibly following evolutionary theory.

But I did. Our most advanced and sophisticated species has not very likely adopted some superficial and imaginary belief in something that isn't real for all of our existence, by which it has garnered inspiration and courage to do the otherwise impossible and achieve the things man has accomplished. If we have, it's the most exceptional and extraordinary mind fuck in the history of nature. Since we don't observe other species adopting similar superficial attributes which have no meaning yet cause great benefits, we have to conclude that's probably not what's happening with humans and spiritual connection. All I did was point out that even the Darwinian theories of natural selection can't support this argument of an 'imagined' spiritual connection without reason or fundamental purpose.

What is the sense we use to come by this awareness? Is there a physical organ which provides our ability to sense the spiritual? You say people have this inherent awareness despite the fact that the awareness takes many different forms and some don't seem to have it at all.

The sense is awareness of spiritual nature. The physical organ involved is the brain, or more specifically, the conscious mind. The awareness itself doesn't take many different forms, the awareness causes creation of many various incarnations. Every human has it, some simply do not use it. Some humans can swim while others can't, but it doesn't mean they lack some attribute the swimmers have, it's just they have never learned how to swim.

Evolution is not a matter of becoming 'advanced'. It is about survivability and propagation. If a particular attribute is 'simpler' yet helps a creature reproduce, that attribute is more likely to continue within the species. The idea that evolution is a linear path from simplistic life to advanced life is a common fallacy.

You're taking my argument out of context again. I mentioned our advancement because you wouldn't expect to find something as advanced over all other living things, doing something totally irrational and without reason.

Why you continuously harp on the lack of spiritual beliefs in other animals I don't understand. Of course we don't see other animals manifest those kinds of beliefs in response to spiritual nature, as you put it. Those animals don't have complex language or ritual as humans do (that we know of) and don't have the intellectual capacity to understand the concepts involved. In fact, I don't believe humanity has any evidence that any other species ascribes meaning to anything at all. That is a human trait.

I think you are wrong about a lot of this. Lots of animals have complex language and there are examples of ritual behavior as well. Even something as small as a lab rat understands and ascribes meaning to things. And let me clarify, I don't know if other animals have spiritual connection, they may have. If they do, it appears they deal with comprehending it much better than humans who feel compelled to create all kinds of religions and means of worshiping it. Perhaps the other animals are different from humans in humbleness and 'know what side the bread is buttered on' with regard to spiritual nature, and don't arrogantly think they know more than God?

You've agreed that humans can think and reason in ways no other animal can, yet fail to see that our imagination is tied to our intelligence and, as such, leaves the possibility of creating meaning where none exists. Since you have as much as said that religions are created by man, and since religion has existed for a large majority of our history, that strikes me as incongruous. If man can imagine religion in such numbers, for so long, why could we not do the same for spiritual nature? Again, I'm not even attempting to argue that spiritual nature doesn't exist, merely that the possibility that humanity has invented the various spiritual beliefs it has held is not contradicted by science or logic.

I've never said we can't create meaning where none exists through imagination. However, it is very unlikely this is what we did with spiritual connection. The example I can relate this to for comparison is superstitions. While there are still people who are superstitious, most of us know that it's a novelty and not something profoundly fundamental. Once upon a time, superstitions were a very serious thing, people really believed and lived by them. As science advanced and dispelled the superstitions, fewer and fewer people took them seriously. With human spirituality, we don't see this happening. Humans remain devoutly connected spiritually to something greater than self. Humans continue to report tremendous benefit from inspiration and courage derived through their spiritual connection.

There may be some kind of spiritual connection shared by all humanity, there may not. Until and unless the spiritual can be clearly defined and understood, perhaps observed, that existence is as open to question as any incarnation of god.

I agree that various incarnations of God are subject to disbelief. That humans are connecting to something greater than self, which we've defined as "spiritual" for now, is without question. Things simply do not have to be observed to be true or exist. I offer again, my Jupiter example... Did the planet Jupiter not exist until we observed it and confirmed it? Our inability to observe and confirm spiritual nature is insignificant, we have an intrinsic hard-wired connection to it.

 

[thebrucebeat]

I agree that various incarnations of God are subject to disbelief. That humans are connecting to something greater than self, which we've defined as "spiritual" for now, is without question. Things simply do not have to be observed to be true or exist. I offer again, my Jupiter example... Did the planet Jupiter not exist until we observed it and confirmed it? Our inability to observe and confirm spiritual nature is insignificant, we have an intrinsic hard-wired connection to it.

Not in the least bit "without question".
You have just invested yourself in your belief, your need for relief from your own fears, doubts and worries.
This "spiritual nature" is your personal rationalization, and you are so completely invested in it you have decided to sell it as something "known".
It is, of course, nothing of the kind.

 

[HUGGY]

I agree that various incarnations of God are subject to disbelief. That humans are connecting to something greater than self, which we've defined as "spiritual" for now, is without question. Things simply do not have to be observed to be true or exist. I offer again, my Jupiter example... Did the planet Jupiter not exist until we observed it and confirmed it? Our inability to observe and confirm spiritual nature is insignificant, we have an intrinsic hard-wired connection to it.

Nonsense.

There are millions of human beings that would question your statements about hard wired spirituality.

You can say it all you want. That does not make it so or that it goes without question.

Your using the discovery of Jupiter is lame. Are you claiming that people were going around saying that there is no such planet as Jupiter before it was observed? Once seen it's existance had to be explained. Your spiritual existance has never been documented ...just imagined. It isn't up to reason to explain YOUR imagination.

 

[Boss]

This "spiritual nature" is your personal rationalization, and you are so completely invested in it you have decided to sell it as something "known".

There are millions of human beings that would question your statements about hard wired spirituality.

It IS known. Humans have been spiritually connecting from the very first civilization to now. There is no time in history where humans have not been spiritually connected to something greater than self.

Millions of human beings question all kinds of things, true and false. The fact that people question or disbelieve has no relevance on whether something is true, real or exists.

 

[Hollie]

This "spiritual nature" is your personal rationalization, and you are so completely invested in it you have decided to sell it as something "known".

There are millions of human beings that would question your statements about hard wired spirituality.

It IS known. Humans have been spiritually connecting from the very first civilization to now. There is no time in history where humans have not been spiritually connected to something greater than self.

Millions of human beings question all kinds of things, true and false. The fact that people question or disbelieve has no relevance on whether something is true, real or exists.

You continue to insist that some invention of yours that you have labeled as a "spiritual connection" to some spirit realm exists, and has always existed, yet you seem to be the only one aware of it.

Is this "the voices" again?

 

[HUGGY]

This "spiritual nature" is your personal rationalization, and you are so completely invested in it you have decided to sell it as something "known".

There are millions of human beings that would question your statements about hard wired spirituality.

It IS known. Humans have been spiritually connecting from the very first civilization to now. There is no time in history where humans have not been spiritually connected to something greater than self.

Millions of human beings question all kinds of things, true and false. The fact that people question or disbelieve has no relevance on whether something is true, real or exists.

Knowing is not equal to believing.

 

[thebrucebeat]

This "spiritual nature" is your personal rationalization, and you are so completely invested in it you have decided to sell it as something "known".

There are millions of human beings that would question your statements about hard wired spirituality.

It IS known. Humans have been spiritually connecting from the very first civilization to now. There is no time in history where humans have not been spiritually connected to something greater than self.

Millions of human beings question all kinds of things, true and false. The fact that people question or disbelieve has no relevance on whether something is true, real or exists.

And neither does their believing in a thing constitute evidence of its existence.
People have dealt with their fears for all recorded time by inventing a solution for them. Your version is "spiritual nature".
Good for you!
It sooths you to create a catch-all that will absorb all iterations of man's fear removal techniques.
Enjoy it.
When you preach it as "fact" or as a "known" entity, that is when the giggling begins.

 

[Boss]

Your version is "spiritual nature".

Not just me. Most all humans for all of history. a very slim minority of the species arrogantly proclaims to not believe in spiritual nature, and that has also always been the case throughout history.

 

[thebrucebeat]

Your version is "spiritual nature".

Not just me. Most all humans for all of history. a very slim minority of the species arrogantly proclaims to not believe in spiritual nature, and that has also always been the case throughout history.

Already agreed most people create a rationalization for their fears and to explain what they can't. The simpler the tribe the more likely it is to invent the rationalization.
Arrogance? Simply your opinion, and not supported by any data. Just a whine.
It's ok. We're used to it.

 

[orogenicman]

I would love to go back in time and see when man first invented god. When he told his friends his concept didn't they look at him like he was crazy? Maybe he was a person of power and influence and the smartest guy in the village so instead of telling people he didn't know he came up with god to explain droughts, floods, death, etc. As George Carlin said it is the absolute greatest bullshit story ever invented.

I am of the opinion that the belief in god is an emotional reaction to the innate primate fear of angry alpha males.

Your opinion is wrong.

According to your opinion...

 

[HUGGY]

I am of the opinion that the belief in god is an emotional reaction to the innate primate fear of angry alpha males.

Your opinion is wrong.

According to your opinion...

Science and the scientific method is not a popularity contest.

There was a time not to too very long ago that the majority of human beings in the "known" world believed that if one sailed a boat out into the ocean that your craft would reach the edge of the world and fall off.