Why do the God-haters persist?

[sealybobo]

The sense is awareness of spiritual nature. The physical organ involved is the brain, or more specifically, the conscious mind. The awareness itself doesn't take many different forms, the awareness causes creation of many various incarnations. Every human has it, some simply do not use it. Some humans can swim while others can't, but it doesn't mean they lack some attribute the swimmers have, it's just they have never learned how to swim.



You're taking my argument out of context again. I mentioned our advancement because you wouldn't expect to find something as advanced over all other living things, doing something totally irrational and without reason.



I think you are wrong about a lot of this. Lots of animals have complex language and there are examples of ritual behavior as well. Even something as small as a lab rat understands and ascribes meaning to things. And let me clarify, I don't know if other animals have spiritual connection, they may have. If they do, it appears they deal with comprehending it much better than humans who feel compelled to create all kinds of religions and means of worshiping it. Perhaps the other animals are different from humans in humbleness and 'know what side the bread is buttered on' with regard to spiritual nature, and don't arrogantly think they know more than God?



I've never said we can't create meaning where none exists through imagination. However, it is very unlikely this is what we did with spiritual connection. The example I can relate this to for comparison is superstitions. While there are still people who are superstitious, most of us know that it's a novelty and not something profoundly fundamental. Once upon a time, superstitions were a very serious thing, people really believed and lived by them. As science advanced and dispelled the superstitions, fewer and fewer people took them seriously. With human spirituality, we don't see this happening. Humans remain devoutly connected spiritually to something greater than self. Humans continue to report tremendous benefit from inspiration and courage derived through their spiritual connection.



I agree that various incarnations of God are subject to disbelief. That humans are connecting to something greater than self, which we've defined as "spiritual" for now, is without question. Things simply do not have to be observed to be true or exist. I offer again, my Jupiter example... Did the planet Jupiter not exist until we observed it and confirmed it? Our inability to observe and confirm spiritual nature is insignificant, we have an intrinsic hard-wired connection to it.

And until we know more the proper response is you don't know and agnostic atheism is the most rational position.

Far too late to wise up on judgment day!!! think!

Because you have zero proof of your fake religion you use fear to spread the word. Sorry but I'm too smart to buy into your cult. No difference between christianity, mormons scientologists muslims and the 995 other religions than came before or after.

 

[sealybobo]

The sense is awareness of spiritual nature. The physical organ involved is the brain, or more specifically, the conscious mind. The awareness itself doesn't take many different forms, the awareness causes creation of many various incarnations. Every human has it, some simply do not use it. Some humans can swim while others can't, but it doesn't mean they lack some attribute the swimmers have, it's just they have never learned how to swim.

You're taking my argument out of context again. I mentioned our advancement because you wouldn't expect to find something as advanced over all other living things, doing something totally irrational and without reason.

I think you are wrong about a lot of this. Lots of animals have complex language and there are examples of ritual behavior as well. Even something as small as a lab rat understands and ascribes meaning to things. And let me clarify, I don't know if other animals have spiritual connection, they may have. If they do, it appears they deal with comprehending it much better than humans who feel compelled to create all kinds of religions and means of worshiping it. Perhaps the other animals are different from humans in humbleness and 'know what side the bread is buttered on' with regard to spiritual nature, and don't arrogantly think they know more than God?

I've never said we can't create meaning where none exists through imagination. However, it is very unlikely this is what we did with spiritual connection. The example I can relate this to for comparison is superstitions. While there are still people who are superstitious, most of us know that it's a novelty and not something profoundly fundamental. Once upon a time, superstitions were a very serious thing, people really believed and lived by them. As science advanced and dispelled the superstitions, fewer and fewer people took them seriously. With human spirituality, we don't see this happening. Humans remain devoutly connected spiritually to something greater than self. Humans continue to report tremendous benefit from inspiration and courage derived through their spiritual connection.



I agree that various incarnations of God are subject to disbelief. That humans are connecting to something greater than self, which we've defined as "spiritual" for now, is without question. Things simply do not have to be observed to be true or exist. I offer again, my Jupiter example... Did the planet Jupiter not exist until we observed it and confirmed it? Our inability to observe and confirm spiritual nature is insignificant, we have an intrinsic hard-wired connection to it.

And until we know more the proper response is you don't know and agnostic atheism is the most rational position.

Far too late to wise up on judgment day!!! think!

Do you realize that at best you are believing the word of 11 guys. 11 because Judas killed himself. This is a cult. And it wasn't like Jesus' 12 wrote the bible. It was written 80 years or more later? Then heavily altered by the church/kings. The kings gave themselves divine authority so you wouldn't question them when they collected taxes. So anyways, only a fool would hear the jesus story and still believe it beyond the 6th grade. You guys believe in an imaginary man watching you and a bullshit story. Wake the fuck up. And please please don't push that bullshit story on us. If it's believe your bullshit or burn in hell I guess I'll burn in hell. And how come the devil was able to go to heaven and then be a rebel? Maybe once I go to heaven I want to take over. Do I have the free will to be a dick in heaven? Funny that christians think they can be dicks here on earth and still go to heaven but they won't be dicks or themselves when they to go the pearly gates. What a story. Almost as dumb as scientology or the mormon stories.

 

[GISMYS]

And until we know more the proper response is you don't know and agnostic atheism is the most rational position.

Far too late to wise up on judgment day!!! think!

Because you have zero proof of your fake religion you use fear to spread the word. Sorry but I'm too smart to buy into your cult. No difference between christianity, mormons scientologists muslims and the 995 other religions than came before or after.

BELIEVERS have the entire universe and life as proof of God,how much more proof do fools need???

 

[sealybobo]

Bill Maher was right. We keep the 10 commandments off the court steps because that would be favoring one religion over all the other religions and it makes us smart people who don't believe in god uncomfortable that our fate is in the hands of people who are insane. The only 2 commandments that are laws are don't kill and don't steal. The other 8 are not laws.

 

[Boss]

Most scientists who know that 99.999% chance their is no god also say the most rational position on god is to be an agnostic atheist. You don't seem to be all that sharp. I see people saying things to you like "agnostic" and you seem to be grasping for AHAH or GOTCHA moments but all you are showing us is that you do not understand or listen to what people say to you. The definition of close minded. Even an atheist can not say 100% sure there is no god just like we can't prove there are no leprechauns, devils angels or ghosts exists.

So all the organized religions you understand to be bullshit yet you refuse to let go of the concept of god for some strange reason. Because now all you have is a feeling, and the fact that primative man always believed in a higher power. Maybe they saw aliens and thought they were gods? Why not rule that possibility out?

I'm sharp enough to know the difference between "atheist" and "agnostic" and don't run around like an idiot claiming they are one in the same.

If you can't say 100% for sure there is no God, why do you all want to keep saying that? This is what doesn't make any sense to me. Here you admit that you're not 100% certain, but the thread is full of people denying any possibility whatsoever.

I've never said that all the organized religions are "bullshit" only that I didn't subscribe to them. I think they are flawed because man is flawed. That doesn't mean they are bullshit, they have proven to be an effective method of man maintaining his spiritual connection. Also, I personally have more than a "feeling". As I've said, I connect with Spiritual God daily, and God connects with me. I realize great personal gain from this connection, so I have all the evidence I need to believe the connection is real.

Now let me ask you, what am I supposed to do with that? Should I simply ignore what I know is the truth so I can fit in with the "cool" crowd here? Should I say that "I'm not sure" when I am certain? Should I refuse to acknowledge what I know is the truth and idiotically demand some sort of "physical" evidence to "prove" the spiritual?

Sorry, but that ain't how I roll.

 

[Boss]

Bill Maher was right.

Arguably the dumbest thing ever posted on any forum!

 

[Steven_R]

Far too late to wise up on judgment day!!! think!

Because you have zero proof of your fake religion you use fear to spread the word. Sorry but I'm too smart to buy into your cult. No difference between christianity, mormons scientologists muslims and the 995 other religions than came before or after.

BELIEVERS have the entire universe and life as proof of God,how much more proof do fools need???

Let's assume God exists. God knows exactly what it would take for me to be a believer, right? I may not even be consciously aware of what it would take, but presumably God does. Whatever it would take to turn me from a non-believer destined for an eternity of torment to someone who will receive grace and go to God. Let's call whatever that is, for lack of a better term, evidence. Yet, God hasn't put that evidence in front of me.

Why? Does God want me to go to Hell? Is God pacing Himself? Does God have an agenda that requires me to be a cynic and say, "okay, show me" and then not show me? Is God just a dick sometimes and this is one of those times?

 

[orogenicman]

Bill Maher was right.

Arguably the dumbest thing ever posted on any forum!

Don't just take his word for it:

 

[Staidhup]

So what is it with the atheists and their intolerance toward those who believe in GOD? What is it that they fear? Why is it that they require physical proof, is not the beauty of the creation enough? Walk outside, look around you, experience the beauty of GOD. You have a choice and will be held in judgement for your actions and beliefs. Go ahead, choose not to believe, no one is forcing you. He has a plan, in total control, testing, and challenging you every day.

 

[Steven_R]

It's easy to see God in rainbows and daisies and puppies and the smiles of babies. It's a little harder to see God in birth defects and mudslides and cancer and crazy people and the sheer number of ways the universe can kill us.

 

[Montrovant]

Most scientists who know that 99.999% chance their is no god also say the most rational position on god is to be an agnostic atheist. You don't seem to be all that sharp. I see people saying things to you like "agnostic" and you seem to be grasping for AHAH or GOTCHA moments but all you are showing us is that you do not understand or listen to what people say to you. The definition of close minded. Even an atheist can not say 100% sure there is no god just like we can't prove there are no leprechauns, devils angels or ghosts exists.

So all the organized religions you understand to be bullshit yet you refuse to let go of the concept of god for some strange reason. Because now all you have is a feeling, and the fact that primative man always believed in a higher power. Maybe they saw aliens and thought they were gods? Why not rule that possibility out?

I'm sharp enough to know the difference between "atheist" and "agnostic" and don't run around like an idiot claiming they are one in the same.

If you can't say 100% for sure there is no God, why do you all want to keep saying that? This is what doesn't make any sense to me. Here you admit that you're not 100% certain, but the thread is full of people denying any possibility whatsoever.

I've never said that all the organized religions are "bullshit" only that I didn't subscribe to them. I think they are flawed because man is flawed. That doesn't mean they are bullshit, they have proven to be an effective method of man maintaining his spiritual connection. Also, I personally have more than a "feeling". As I've said, I connect with Spiritual God daily, and God connects with me. I realize great personal gain from this connection, so I have all the evidence I need to believe the connection is real.

Now let me ask you, what am I supposed to do with that? Should I simply ignore what I know is the truth so I can fit in with the "cool" crowd here? Should I say that "I'm not sure" when I am certain? Should I refuse to acknowledge what I know is the truth and idiotically demand some sort of "physical" evidence to "prove" the spiritual?

Sorry, but that ain't how I roll.

I'd like to comment on the section in bold.

I don't want this to be a denial of your experiences or your beliefs, but what you've said does almost automatically bring up the question in my mind of what that means for all the other people who believe they have a deep connection with their god? Do you think that they are connection to the same god as you but are making incorrect assumptions or interpretations of that connection? Can those people be correct in their beliefs and you correct in yours at the same time, and if not, do you think there is a particular reason you are more accurately able to understand the nature of god?

Again, I don't want to turn this into a, "You're wrong in your beliefs" sidetrack, I'm just curious what you think are the differences between your experience and understanding of god and those of other people, and why you think those differences exist. That might give me some more insight into your overall beliefs.

 

[orogenicman]

So what is it with the atheists and their intolerance toward those who believe in GOD? What is it that they fear? Why is it that they require physical proof, is not the beauty of the creation enough? Walk outside, look around you, experience the beauty of GOD. You have a choice and will be held in judgement for your actions and beliefs. Go ahead, choose not to believe, no one is forcing you. He has a plan, in total control, testing, and challenging you every day.

 

[BreezeWood]

I personally have more than a "feeling". As I've said, I connect with Spiritual God daily, and God connects with me. I realize great personal gain from this connection, so I have all the evidence I need to believe the connection is real.

...........

Should I refuse to acknowledge what I know is the truth and idiotically demand some sort of "physical" evidence to "prove" the spiritual?

Sorry, but that ain't how I roll.

... and God connects with me.


really, can you characterize a conversation you've recently had with the Almighty ??? -

or just before posting have God declare an event before it happens and let us know what it is ... we'll know for sure then, the degree of your "sanity" - complete or just partially (disabled) -

good luck, Bossy ...

.

 

[Boss]

I don't want this to be a denial of your experiences or your beliefs, but what you've said does almost automatically bring up the question in my mind of what that means for all the other people who believe they have a deep connection with their god? Do you think that they are connection to the same god as you but are making incorrect assumptions or interpretations of that connection? Can those people be correct in their beliefs and you correct in yours at the same time, and if not, do you think there is a particular reason you are more accurately able to understand the nature of god?

Again, I don't want to turn this into a, "You're wrong in your beliefs" sidetrack, I'm just curious what you think are the differences between your experience and understanding of god and those of other people, and why you think those differences exist. That might give me some more insight into your overall beliefs.

I can't speak for the experiences or beliefs of other people. I personally believe that people make the same connection to the same spiritual thing, but they interpret that connection differently because of a myriad of other things. Whether this is an "intention" of God, I do not know, I've often wondered about that. I don't really believe God has "intention" per say. We have to envision a logical assumption that God does have intention, that God wants us to behave morally or whatever, and I can't say for certain this is not the case. It seems our spiritual connection does incline us to behave in a certain way, to comprehend "right from wrong" and move in the direction of the positive rather than negative, light rather than dark. Whether this is a deliberate intention of God or God just designed us to think this way, I can't say for sure.

I've often tried to explain God in terms of energy, something most of us can comprehend. While it's not a flawless analogy, it comes as close as anything else I can find to relate it to. Now, we see with electricity, for example, people find different beneficial uses for the energy. Some people may use it to light their homes, someone else may use it to put criminals to death, others use it to weld things or create magnets. Is one of these "the right way" to use electricity? Does the electricity have an "intention" for how you use it? Does the electricity care if you acknowledge it exists or choose not to use it? Do people get electrocuted because they "disobeyed" electricity or made it "angry" at them?

 

[Boss]

I personally have more than a "feeling". As I've said, I connect with Spiritual God daily, and God connects with me. I realize great personal gain from this connection, so I have all the evidence I need to believe the connection is real.

...........

Should I refuse to acknowledge what I know is the truth and idiotically demand some sort of "physical" evidence to "prove" the spiritual?

Sorry, but that ain't how I roll.

... and God connects with me.

really, can you characterize a conversation you've recently had with the Almighty ??? -

or just before posting have God declare an event before it happens and let us know what it is ... we'll know for sure then, the degree of your "sanity" - complete or just partially (disabled) -

good luck, Bossy ...

.

Nothing I tell you will be viewed without skepticism. God doesn't convey future events to me or provide psychic ability. God provides more of a guidance, inspiration, personal strength and courage. Whenever I encounter a problem, a decision, a choice, a moral dilemma, a crisis in my life... I can take it to God and gain insight as to how I should proceed, and to my recollection, God has never let me down. That's not to say I've never made a bad decision, sometimes I have failed to listen to my spiritual guidance and suffered the consequences. Sometimes I have been too lazy to follow my spiritual guidance, and again, I paid the price. It is through these repeated experiences I have developed a great amount of trust in how I am guided spiritually, and I always try to follow it. Again.... what am I supposed to do with this? Abandon it so I can be one of the "cool" kids?

 

[Montrovant]

I don't want this to be a denial of your experiences or your beliefs, but what you've said does almost automatically bring up the question in my mind of what that means for all the other people who believe they have a deep connection with their god? Do you think that they are connection to the same god as you but are making incorrect assumptions or interpretations of that connection? Can those people be correct in their beliefs and you correct in yours at the same time, and if not, do you think there is a particular reason you are more accurately able to understand the nature of god?

Again, I don't want to turn this into a, "You're wrong in your beliefs" sidetrack, I'm just curious what you think are the differences between your experience and understanding of god and those of other people, and why you think those differences exist. That might give me some more insight into your overall beliefs.

I can't speak for the experiences or beliefs of other people. I personally believe that people make the same connection to the same spiritual thing, but they interpret that connection differently because of a myriad of other things. Whether this is an "intention" of God, I do not know, I've often wondered about that. I don't really believe God has "intention" per say. We have to envision a logical assumption that God does have intention, that God wants us to behave morally or whatever, and I can't say for certain this is not the case. It seems our spiritual connection does incline us to behave in a certain way, to comprehend "right from wrong" and move in the direction of the positive rather than negative, light rather than dark. Whether this is a deliberate intention of God or God just designed us to think this way, I can't say for sure.

I've often tried to explain God in terms of energy, something most of us can comprehend. While it's not a flawless analogy, it comes as close as anything else I can find to relate it to. Now, we see with electricity, for example, people find different beneficial uses for the energy. Some people may use it to light their homes, someone else may use it to put criminals to death, others use it to weld things or create magnets. Is one of these "the right way" to use electricity? Does the electricity have an "intention" for how you use it? Does the electricity care if you acknowledge it exists or choose not to use it? Do people get electrocuted because they "disobeyed" electricity or made it "angry" at them?

But based on other things you've said, would it be more accurate to say that your concept of god is of something intelligent but simply without concerns of a human nature? That while god may have as little concern about most of what humanity does, god also is a highly intelligent entity with reasoning and purpose, simply beyond human comprehension?

I get the impression that, to use some common generalizations, you believe much more of a watchmaker god than the personal god of the Abrahamic religions. When you talk about connecting with god, however, it muddles things somewhat.

 

[Steven_R]

I don't want this to be a denial of your experiences or your beliefs, but what you've said does almost automatically bring up the question in my mind of what that means for all the other people who believe they have a deep connection with their god? Do you think that they are connection to the same god as you but are making incorrect assumptions or interpretations of that connection? Can those people be correct in their beliefs and you correct in yours at the same time, and if not, do you think there is a particular reason you are more accurately able to understand the nature of god?

Again, I don't want to turn this into a, "You're wrong in your beliefs" sidetrack, I'm just curious what you think are the differences between your experience and understanding of god and those of other people, and why you think those differences exist. That might give me some more insight into your overall beliefs.

I can't speak for the experiences or beliefs of other people. I personally believe that people make the same connection to the same spiritual thing, but they interpret that connection differently because of a myriad of other things. Whether this is an "intention" of God, I do not know, I've often wondered about that. I don't really believe God has "intention" per say. We have to envision a logical assumption that God does have intention, that God wants us to behave morally or whatever, and I can't say for certain this is not the case. It seems our spiritual connection does incline us to behave in a certain way, to comprehend "right from wrong" and move in the direction of the positive rather than negative, light rather than dark. Whether this is a deliberate intention of God or God just designed us to think this way, I can't say for sure.

I've often tried to explain God in terms of energy, something most of us can comprehend. While it's not a flawless analogy, it comes as close as anything else I can find to relate it to. Now, we see with electricity, for example, people find different beneficial uses for the energy. Some people may use it to light their homes, someone else may use it to put criminals to death, others use it to weld things or create magnets. Is one of these "the right way" to use electricity? Does the electricity have an "intention" for how you use it? Does the electricity care if you acknowledge it exists or choose not to use it? Do people get electrocuted because they "disobeyed" electricity or made it "angry" at them?

The difference is I can understand how electricity works. We've studied it, built equations about it, can quantify it, get it to do things for us, and understand many of its secrets. I can even see proof electricity exists. Yes, there are things about electricity we don't understand yet, but we're working on answering those questions.

We can't do any of those things with God.

 

[sealybobo]

Far too late to wise up on judgment day!!! think!

Because you have zero proof of your fake religion you use fear to spread the word. Sorry but I'm too smart to buy into your cult. No difference between christianity, mormons scientologists muslims and the 995 other religions than came before or after.

BELIEVERS have the entire universe and life as proof of God,how much more proof do fools need???

Pointing to the universe or to living things and saying that's your proof of God is very ignorant and not proof of a god at all. This is a God of the Gaps approach. Your lack of understanding concerning the universe does not mean god holds any explanatory value.

P.S. How do you look at the universe and come up with adam and eve, noah's ark, talking snakes, people who lived 800 years, etc? You don't. Man made all that stuff up soon after he invented the concept of god.

What proof do atheists need? A God actually proving its own existence is what would convince an atheist. Why does he hide? Seems pretty petty to me.

 

[GISMYS]

Because you have zero proof of your fake religion you use fear to spread the word. Sorry but I'm too smart to buy into your cult. No difference between christianity, mormons scientologists muslims and the 995 other religions than came before or after.

BELIEVERS have the entire universe and life as proof of God,how much more proof do fools need???

Pointing to the universe or to living things and saying that's your proof of God is very ignorant and not proof of a god at all. This is a God of the Gaps approach. Your lack of understanding concerning the universe does not mean god holds any explanatory value.

P.S. How do you look at the universe and come up with adam and eve, noah's ark, talking snakes, people who lived 800 years, etc? You don't. Man made all that stuff up soon after he invented the concept of god.

What proof do atheists need? A God actually proving its own existence is what would convince an atheist. Why does he hide? Seems pretty petty to me.

HOW SAD!!! Must you feel the flames of eternal hell before you wise up????? Far too late then!!! think!

 

[sealybobo]

I personally have more than a "feeling". As I've said, I connect with Spiritual God daily, and God connects with me. I realize great personal gain from this connection, so I have all the evidence I need to believe the connection is real.

...........

Should I refuse to acknowledge what I know is the truth and idiotically demand some sort of "physical" evidence to "prove" the spiritual?

Sorry, but that ain't how I roll.

... and God connects with me.

really, can you characterize a conversation you've recently had with the Almighty ??? -

or just before posting have God declare an event before it happens and let us know what it is ... we'll know for sure then, the degree of your "sanity" - complete or just partially (disabled) -

good luck, Bossy ...

.

Nothing I tell you will be viewed without skepticism. God doesn't convey future events to me or provide psychic ability. God provides more of a guidance, inspiration, personal strength and courage. Whenever I encounter a problem, a decision, a choice, a moral dilemma, a crisis in my life... I can take it to God and gain insight as to how I should proceed, and to my recollection, God has never let me down. That's not to say I've never made a bad decision, sometimes I have failed to listen to my spiritual guidance and suffered the consequences. Sometimes I have been too lazy to follow my spiritual guidance, and again, I paid the price. It is through these repeated experiences I have developed a great amount of trust in how I am guided spiritually, and I always try to follow it. Again.... what am I supposed to do with this? Abandon it so I can be one of the "cool" kids?

That's what I did. I told you until about a month ago I thought the same way you did. But the more debate and research I did the more I realized I'm talking to an imaginary person that I have no concrete reason in believing, and based on all the evidence, praying does nothing for anyone. It may make you feel good but statistically prayers are just not answered. One person says they were saved and it was a miracle but then the reason 1000 people died is because it was the lords will? Silly. And I guess we wouldn't care so much but you want to use your fantasies to wage wars, ban stem cell, fly planes into buildings, the spanish inquisition, burning people for being witches, trying to put prayer into school and our laws. These are the reasons we object.

And I love my friends who say I don't want to believe. Really? Who wouldn't want to believe? But WANT's got nothing to do with it. I also wonder if you stopped believing in God and in the future talked to yourself instead of talking to an imaginary man, wouldn't you be able to help yourself out and give yourself good advice? You really think it was the lord or your subconscience that you were talking to?