Why I Am Not A Christian

[Sky Dancer]

There are some teachings that are ridiculous. I gave an example of one offered to me as a child by nuns in Catholic school. That good girls don't wear patent leather shoes because boys can see up your dress.

Now that's an example of a ridiculous belief passed on by Catholic clergy.

 

[Madeline]

Yanno guys, I am beginning to sense that it is criticism of christianity, not the tone or the manners or any perceived criticism of its adherents, that really upsets you. Tell me -- why's the subject so touchy we cannot discuss it without so much angst?

Are you this careful not to offend others?

I'm not at all careful not to offend others. The point is that I don't deliberately offend people and try to pretend that my aim is anything else, nor am I hypocritical enough to be deliberately offensive and then expect others to be otherwise, or to be offended myself when they are offensive back.

And make no mistake, it IS your offensive tone that's the problem here, not anything else. If you had made your criticisms in a tone of honest curiosity and confusion, with a sincere desire to understand Christian beliefs, most of the responses - including my own - would have been equally polite.

So if I had written the Op from the POV of a confused, beleaugered christian that would have been okie dokie. It's the fact that I don't believe as you do that's the real rub.

I don't think this dilemma you see lends itself to resolution on a message board thread. I wonder: would you have been more tolerant of my posts had I gone through with conversion to Judaism? Is there any religious belief other than yours you feel respectful towards?

 

[Newby]

There are some teachings that are ridiculous. I gave an example of one offered to me as a child by nuns in Catholic school. That good girls don't wear patent leather shoes because boys can see up your dress.

Now that's an example of a ridiculous belief passed on by Catholic clergy.

That's not a religious belief, that's advice.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Madeline

You have every right to criticize Christianity and to lay out all the reasons why it isn't your path. It's the way you're going about doing this that has everyone in an uproar.

sky

Well thankies, Sky Dancer. I'm trying to be all ass-kissy but t'aint coming out right, I guess.

If you want respect for your point of view, be respectful to others. You seem to forget that ones spiritual path is dearly held by devotees.

Exactly. As much as I might personally not care for Sky here, as much as I might disagree with her beliefs, I would never refer to them as "ridiculous", or use the term "nutters" in relation to, for example, Buddhists who choose to live in a remote monastery and keep a more severely Spartan lifestyle than others. I don't even vaguely relate to that mindset and life choice, but that doesn't make it okay for me to be derogatory about it to Sky.

 

[Sky Dancer]

There are some teachings that are ridiculous. I gave an example of one offered to me as a child by nuns in Catholic school. That good girls don't wear patent leather shoes because boys can see up your dress.

Now that's an example of a ridiculous belief passed on by Catholic clergy.

That's not a religious belief, that's advice.

The belief is that boys are looking up little girls dresses via their shiny shoes. It's ridiculous.

The mind of that nun teaching such a thing was definitely warped.

 

[Cecilie1200]

If there's a problem with me acting according to my God-given nature, then it is for HIM to address it.

Here is demonstrated another reason why I could never be Christian. The attitude that some Christians have that they are not responsible for their actions. That God made them the way they are and being his children, so they have an excuse for their immaturity.

I am absolutely responsible for my actions. Point is, I'm not responsible to MAD for them. I'm responsible to GOD, and HE is the one who gets to question and chastise me for what I do with the personality He gave me, not Mad or any other non-Christian.

Oh, and this sort of criticism is rich coming from a group of people who like to tout the belief that we're all just animals, and therefore can't be wrong in acting on our animal instincts.

 

[Newby]

There are some teachings that are ridiculous. I gave an example of one offered to me as a child by nuns in Catholic school. That good girls don't wear patent leather shoes because boys can see up your dress.

Now that's an example of a ridiculous belief passed on by Catholic clergy.

That's not a religious belief, that's advice.

The belief is that boys are looking up little girls dresses via their shiny shoes. It's ridiculous.

The mind of that nun was definitely warped.

You said it was a religious teaching or belief tho, which it was not. You don't think little boys try to look up little girls' dresses by whatever means possible then?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Well thankies, Sky Dancer. I'm trying to be all ass-kissy but t'aint coming out right, I guess.

If you want respect for your point of view, be respectful to others. You seem to forget that ones spiritual path is dearly held by devotees.

Exactly. As much as I might personally not care for Sky here, as much as I might disagree with her beliefs, I would never refer to them as "ridiculous", or use the term "nutters" in relation to, for example, Buddhists who choose to live in a remote monastery and keep a more severely Spartan lifestyle than others. I don't even vaguely relate to that mindset and life choice, but that doesn't make it okay for me to be derogatory about it to Sky.

Hahaha. That was cute. I appreciate the sentiment. You don't care for me, you disagree with my beliefs but you don't want to go out of your way to be derogative. Fair enough.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Well thankies, Sky Dancer. I'm trying to be all ass-kissy but t'aint coming out right, I guess.

It's coming out just as you planned and you know it. You baited your hook, I hope your fishing expedition was successful, perhaps one of these fishing trips will finally teach you something, but I'm doubtful.

I didn't write the Op as some sort of master manipulation, in hopes of learning something. I wrote it sincerely and hoped it'd open a dialogue -- with anyone. You seem to think that if I am not persuaded of the error of my ways and return to the flock, I have not learned.

Personally, I think your post is more offensive than anything I have written, but since Sky Dancer is on me about my manners, I'll take the hit.

While I'm sure you're sincere in your belief that we're all just ridiculous idiots and you're much superior to us, you are NOT sincere about any sort of respect for those who don't suckle at the same philosophical teat that you do.

And Newby, despite your sincerely-held belief that everyone on the planet is just DYING to add your illustrious self to their religious fold, doesn't actually give a damn if you're convinced to believe in Christianity or not. He just wants to convince you to believe in the concept of behaving like a civilized, courteous person instead of an arrogant savage.

And believe ME, when I am able to justifiably criticize you for rude behavior, you have REALLY sunk to the bottom of the barrel.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Madeline

You have every right to criticize Christianity and to lay out all the reasons why it isn't your path. It's the way you're going about doing this that has everyone in an uproar.

sky

I see that a bunch of people are in an uproar but it seems to me Madeline has bent over backwards and been quite patient with them in an attempt to engage them in genuine debate.

The way she puts it is she's trying to be all 'ass kissy'. There's a vast difference between trying to be ass kissy and being genuinely respectful.

You know I'm not a Christian, but I wouldn't dream of debating Christianity's pros and cons with a practicing Christian nor would I attempt to show how Buddhism is superior. I could instead talk about why it works for me.

I could point out places that confuse me about Christianity and ask for clarification from practicing Christians.

And I would absolutely respond politely and in-depth to such a thread from you - I believe I even have in the past - and make a sincere effort to help you understand my beliefs. I think we have both even enjoyed such exchanges before, because while I don't share your faith, close members of my family have been Buddhists.

 

[Sky Dancer]

That's not a religious belief, that's advice.

The belief is that boys are looking up little girls dresses via their shiny shoes. It's ridiculous.

The mind of that nun was definitely warped.

You said it was a religious teaching or belief tho, which it was not. You don't think little boys try to look up little girls' dresses by whatever means possible then?

OK. If you want to defend the nun's position, go for it. I see it differently. I think the nun was ridiculous about patent leather shoes.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Maybe you can learn to voice your beliefs without bashing others in the process? Perhaps that what people take offense too, not that you're voicing your beliefs.

Okay, give us a demonstration of how a non Christian should, according to your rules, express their honest reaction of repugnance at the veneration of crucifixes.

I think you can express your repugnance at crucifixes and your own honest reaction without implying that your reaction is the truth of how things are. It's just a reaction, Ang. The cross means different things to different people.

I personally wouldn't even express it as a "repugnance". It's entirely possible to express confusion as to its usage without ever mentioning THAT reaction at all.

 

[Newby]

The belief is that boys are looking up little girls dresses via their shiny shoes. It's ridiculous.

The mind of that nun was definitely warped.

You said it was a religious teaching or belief tho, which it was not. You don't think little boys try to look up little girls' dresses by whatever means possible then?

OK. If you want to defend the nun's position, go for it. I see it differently. I think the nun was ridiculous about patent leather shoes.

I'm not defending her, I'm just saying she didn't need attacked to begin with, that's all. Seems like you're making a bigger deal out of something pretty small, at least from my point of view. I'm sure the little girl's parents will put whatever shoes they want too on her, despite the nun's opinion of them. At least I would if I were her parent.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Waving red flags? Are you sure you don't have Madeline confused with ScurvyDelight?

Madeline admitting she's trying to be 'ass kissy' is a red flag. There is no need to walk on eggshells if you genuinely want an intelligent interfaith dialogue. You do have to start with a genuine respect for the other side.

The things I find valuable in christianity never seem to be valuable to practicing christians. They all seem to value the aspects of the faith that strike me as most irrational, anti-human and anti-rational.

Nonetheless, I do find much of what Jesus allegedly taught to be quite true. And have said so.

I hope you're not waiting for profuse thanks in deigning to grace some of our beliefs with your lofty approval.

Actually, I hope you ARE waiting, and I hope you're holding your breath while so doing.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Okay, give us a demonstration of how a non Christian should, according to your rules, express their honest reaction of repugnance at the veneration of crucifixes.

I think you can express your repugnance at crucifixes and your own honest reaction without implying that your reaction is the truth of how things are. It's just a reaction, Ang. The cross means different things to different people.

I personally wouldn't even express it as a "repugnance". It's entirely possible to express confusion as to its usage without ever mentioning THAT reaction at all.

For some reason Mel Gibson's movie The Passion of the Christ comes to mind. I understand it was very gory. One can certainly question why that was necessary.

 

[Cecilie1200]

whether or not she intended it, the OP is disrespectful to the beliefs of christians, IMO.

it's not terribly surprising to me that the result is more heat than light.

You know we're ass-deep in alligators when I'm agreeing with Del, but it would be dishonest of me not to admit it when he's right.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Okay, so you're stating that you then find practicing Christians to be irrational, anti-human, and anti-rational? And you expect a christian reading your words to not be insulted?

So what is it exactly that you find valuable that you think practicing christians do not which in turn makes them irrational and anti-human in your opinion?

From my own perspective, Newby (as if I could borrow anyone else's) most christian sects are anti-sexual. I don't happen to recall Jesus saying women were defective or that sex was evil, etc.

I do recall him saying that wealth is so corrupting, almost everyone who experiences it will suffer a spiritual death. That does not happen to seem to be a guiding principle in the lives of many christians, IMO. Maybe because it is not a guiding tenet of many sects.

I could go on, but those two at least give us something to discuss, if you are willing.

Saying that 'most' Christian sects are anti-sexual is an unsupportable statement. It puts all the Christians here on the defensive to prove that they are sexual and spiritual beings.

If Christians are anti-sexual, then how come so many Christian sects are famous - or even infamous - for having enormous families with huge numbers of children? Are we finding them under cabbage patches, or being invaded by swarms of storks?

 

[Sky Dancer]

You said it was a religious teaching or belief tho, which it was not. You don't think little boys try to look up little girls' dresses by whatever means possible then?

OK. If you want to defend the nun's position, go for it. I see it differently. I think the nun was ridiculous about patent leather shoes.

I'm not defending her, I'm just saying she didn't need attacked to begin with, that's all. Seems like you're making a bigger deal out of something pretty small, at least from my point of view. I'm sure the little girl's parents will put whatever shoes they want too on her, despite the nun's opinion of them. At least I would if I were her parent.

Let's see if I follow. You think I attacked the nun who taught that patent leather shoes were bad?

I'm making an example of something that I was taught by a nun that I think is ridiculous. I'm not attacking the nun. As an adult, I'm calling her belief to task for teaching a child something so silly and misguided.

 

[Cecilie1200]

You want to discuss your disapproval of my manners s'more?

Fine. Lemme know when you are done and ready to actually discuss the flaws I and others see in christianity that drove me off. If that ever happens.

Given that you have yet to apologize OR demonstrate any sort of remorse for gratuitously attacking us, I can't see any reason to stop discussing your continuing lack of manners, nor any reason that we wouldn't WANT to drive you off, or would want to bring you back. It never ceases to amaze me that you continue to harbor the belief that your company is so desirable that Christians would vie for it.

 

[Cecilie1200]

whether or not she intended it, the OP is disrespectful to the beliefs of christians, IMO.

it's not terribly surprising to me that the result is more heat than light.

Perhaps that is because we live in a predominantly Christian society and many Christians are not used to having their beliefs rejected by others. Non Christians in our society are more familiar with having their beliefs rejected and so we are used to keeping a cool head when it happens. Perhaps we just wrongfully assume everyone is like us.

there's a difference between rejecting someone's beliefs and mocking those beliefs.

And anyone who thinks Christians aren't used to both has got his head in his colon, checking for polyps.