Why I Am Not A Christian

[Anguille]

whether or not she intended it, the OP is disrespectful to the beliefs of christians, IMO.

it's not terribly surprising to me that the result is more heat than light.

Perhaps that is because we live in a predominantly Christian society and many Christians are not used to having their beliefs rejected by others. Non Christians in our society are more familiar with having their beliefs rejected and so we are used to keeping a cool head when it happens. Perhaps we just wrongfully assume everyone is like us.

there's a difference between rejecting someone's beliefs and mocking those beliefs.

I reread Madeline's OP and can now understand where some could hear in their heads a mocking tone. That is always a problem with posts. You can only surmise with which tone the author has said it in their head and often your assumption is related to how you feel about the authors opinions. To me her OP it came off as somewhat provocative and bit flippant but I felt she was being completely sincere in her questions. Many of us non believers frequently question our non belief. We wonder why is it everyone else believes but we do not. Part of us wants to belong too. We can only get satisfying answers by asking some challenging questions. In Madeline's case, she asks why she did not end up a christian in spite of having a strict Christian upbringing. If someone could give me a valid reason to be a Christian, I'd not hesitate to be one. It's not always fun being the outsider. But our frustration comes from never getting reasonable answers and then being chastised and accused of dishonesty and of having all sorts of evil intentions for asking basic questions. Sometimes it's not difficult to see the remnants of the attitudes that led Christians to resort to burning heretics in the past, in the behavior of some Christians today.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Perhaps that is because we live in a predominantly Christian society and many Christians are not used to having their beliefs rejected by others. Non Christians in our society are more familiar with having their beliefs rejected and so we are used to keeping a cool head when it happens. Perhaps we just wrongfully assume everyone is like us.

there's a difference between rejecting someone's beliefs and mocking those beliefs.

I reread Madeline's OP and can now understand where some could hear in their heads a mocking tone. That is always a problem with posts. You can only surmise with which tone the author has said it in their head and often your assumption is related to how you feel about the authors opinions. To me her OP it came off as somewhat provocative and bit flippant but I felt she was being completely sincere in her questions. Many of us non believers frequently question our non belief. We wonder why is it everyone else believes but we do not. Part of us wants to belong too. We can only get satisfying answers by asking some challenging questions. In Madeline's case, she asks why she did not end up a christian in spite of having a strict Christian upbringing. If someone could give me a valid reason to be a Christian, I'd not hesitate to be one. It's not always fun being the outsider. But our frustration comes from never getting reasonable answers and then being chastised and accused of dishonesty and of having all sorts of evil intentions for asking basic questions. Sometimes it's not difficult to see the remnants of the attitudes that led Christians to resort to burning heretics in the past, in the behavior of some Christians today.

This is a great post. I'd rep you but I have to spread some around.

 

[Anguille]

BFD, you've stated your feelings on it about what, 20 times now. Good for you, what the hell do you expect someone to say to such a statement anyway? You're welcome to feel however you want about it, it doesn't change my feelings or anyone else's, so what is the objective in stating it 20 times? The only objective I see is that you think it's 'shocking' and you're just trying to provoke, like I said you'll have to find new victims to play your games with.

20 times? Exaggerate much?

"you'll have to find new victims" ? I think that statement confirms my psychological assessment of you in an above post.

Sorry, to disappoint you, Newby, but I could not care less if I've changed your feelings about the meaning of the cross symbol or not. When will you proselytizing fanatics ever learn that, unlike you, not everyone wants to push their beliefs in everyone else.

I haven't experienced the Christian posters on this thread as proselytising Christianity. I have seen them defend their faith and points of view.

Curvelight, has told me my interpretation of the crucifixion story is wrong and his is right and has demanded I agree with him/her. I call that proselytizing. I am also referring to past experiences with some of these same posters in other threads.

 

[del]

Perhaps that is because we live in a predominantly Christian society and many Christians are not used to having their beliefs rejected by others. Non Christians in our society are more familiar with having their beliefs rejected and so we are used to keeping a cool head when it happens. Perhaps we just wrongfully assume everyone is like us.

there's a difference between rejecting someone's beliefs and mocking those beliefs.

I reread Madeline's OP and can now understand where some could hear in their heads a mocking tone. That is always a problem with posts. You can only surmise with which tone the author has said it in their head and often your assumption is related to how you feel about the authors opinions. To me her OP it came off as somewhat provocative and bit flippant but I felt she was being completely sincere in her questions. Many of us non believers frequently question our non belief. We wonder why is it everyone else believes but we do not. Part of us wants to belong too. We can only get satisfying answers by asking some challenging questions. In Madeline's case, she asks why she did not end up a christian in spite of having a strict Christian upbringing. If someone could give me a valid reason to be a Christian, I'd not hesitate to be one. It's not always fun being the outsider. But our frustration comes from never getting reasonable answers and then being chastised and accused of dishonesty and of having all sorts of evil intentions for asking basic questions. Sometimes it's not difficult to see the remnants of the attitudes that led Christians to resort to burning heretics in the past, in the behavior of some Christians today.

no it isn't; people are still people, after all.


a good reason to be a christian would be believing in the divinity of christ.
since i don't, i'm not. i believe in a god or spirit that works through other people. i believe that this spirit worked through jesus more than the average human, but i don't believe that jesus was god.

but that's me and what works for me may not work for you or anyone else.
that doesn't give me the right to say you're wrong, just different.

 

[Sky Dancer]

20 times? Exaggerate much?

"you'll have to find new victims" ? I think that statement confirms my psychological assessment of you in an above post.

Sorry, to disappoint you, Newby, but I could not care less if I've changed your feelings about the meaning of the cross symbol or not. When will you proselytizing fanatics ever learn that, unlike you, not everyone wants to push their beliefs in everyone else.

I haven't experienced the Christian posters on this thread as proselytising Christianity. I have seen them defend their faith and points of view.

Curvelight, has told me my interpretation of the crucifixion story is wrong and his is right and has demanded I agree with him/her. I call that proselytizing. I am also referring to past experiences with some of these same posters in other threads.

OK. I can see how Curvelight trying to convert you to his point of view could be seen as proselytizing.

 

[Anguille]

I must commend you, Sky, on your willingness to concede points. I think you are probably being the most fair of us all in this thread.

 

[Anguille]

there's a difference between rejecting someone's beliefs and mocking those beliefs.

I reread Madeline's OP and can now understand where some could hear in their heads a mocking tone. That is always a problem with posts. You can only surmise with which tone the author has said it in their head and often your assumption is related to how you feel about the authors opinions. To me her OP it came off as somewhat provocative and bit flippant but I felt she was being completely sincere in her questions. Many of us non believers frequently question our non belief. We wonder why is it everyone else believes but we do not. Part of us wants to belong too. We can only get satisfying answers by asking some challenging questions. In Madeline's case, she asks why she did not end up a christian in spite of having a strict Christian upbringing. If someone could give me a valid reason to be a Christian, I'd not hesitate to be one. It's not always fun being the outsider. But our frustration comes from never getting reasonable answers and then being chastised and accused of dishonesty and of having all sorts of evil intentions for asking basic questions. Sometimes it's not difficult to see the remnants of the attitudes that led Christians to resort to burning heretics in the past, in the behavior of some Christians today.

no it isn't; people are still people, after all.


a good reason to be a christian would be believing in the divinity of christ.
since i don't, i'm not. i believe in a god or spirit that works through other people. i believe that this spirit worked through jesus more than the average human, but i don't believe that jesus was god.

but that's me and what works for me may not work for you or anyone else.
that doesn't give me the right to say you're wrong, just different.

Agreed, it's not a Christian thing, per se, it's just human nature at it's worst.

 

[Newby]

20 times? Exaggerate much?

"you'll have to find new victims" ? I think that statement confirms my psychological assessment of you in an above post.

Sorry, to disappoint you, Newby, but I could not care less if I've changed your feelings about the meaning of the cross symbol or not. When will you proselytizing fanatics ever learn that, unlike you, not everyone wants to push their beliefs in everyone else.

I haven't experienced the Christian posters on this thread as proselytising Christianity. I have seen them defend their faith and points of view.

Curvelight, has told me my interpretation of the crucifixion story is wrong and his is right and has demanded I agree with him/her. I call that proselytizing. I am also referring to past experiences with some of these same posters in other threads.

I don't think he was trying to 'convert' you, he was pointing out the fallacy of your logic, completely different.

 

[JoLouis]

Curvelight is wrong about the crucifixion. Jesus was crucified for being gay. He was the first gay rights activist.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Curvelight is wrong about the crucifixion. Jesus was crucified for being gay. He was the first gay rights activist.

You sound like Elton John, "I think Jesus was a compassionate, super-intelligent gay man who understood human problems".

 

[Cecilie1200]

Alrighty then. I feel thoroughly spanked for my bad manners.

Though I suspect no matter how I phrased it, an Op saying "I find some of this ridiculous" would give offense to some.

Insofar as it's offensive on the face of it to feel compelled to tell people that you consider their core beliefs ridiculous when no one asked you, yeah.

Is this revelation of basic human etiquette and good manners such a surprise to you?

 

[JoLouis]

Alrighty then. I feel thoroughly spanked for my bad manners.

Though I suspect no matter how I phrased it, an Op saying "I find some of this ridiculous" would give offense to some.

Insofar as it's offensive on the face of it to feel compelled to tell people that you consider their core beliefs ridiculous when no one asked you, yeah.

Is this revelation of basic human etiquette and good manners such a surprise to you?

Cecilie giving etiquette lessons!

 

[Cecilie1200]

Yanno guys, I am beginning to sense that it is criticism of christianity, not the tone or the manners or any perceived criticism of its adherents, that really upsets you. Tell me -- why's the subject so touchy we cannot discuss it without so much angst?

Are you this careful not to offend others?

I'm not at all careful not to offend others. The point is that I don't deliberately offend people and try to pretend that my aim is anything else, nor am I hypocritical enough to be deliberately offensive and then expect others to be otherwise, or to be offended myself when they are offensive back.

And make no mistake, it IS your offensive tone that's the problem here, not anything else. If you had made your criticisms in a tone of honest curiosity and confusion, with a sincere desire to understand Christian beliefs, most of the responses - including my own - would have been equally polite.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Here's an example of something I believed in as a child but now find ridiculous. That a fat man in a red suit could squeeze down my narrow chimney with a huge bag of toys just for me.

Lucky for me there is no santa religion so I don't have to worry about causing offense.

 

[JoLouis]

Yanno guys, I am beginning to sense that it is criticism of christianity, not the tone or the manners or any perceived criticism of its adherents, that really upsets you. Tell me -- why's the subject so touchy we cannot discuss it without so much angst?

Are you this careful not to offend others?

I'm not at all careful not to offend others. The point is that I don't deliberately offend people and try to pretend that my aim is anything else, nor am I hypocritical enough to be deliberately offensive and then expect others to be otherwise, or to be offended myself when they are offensive back.

And make no mistake, it IS your offensive tone that's the problem here, not anything else. If you had made your criticisms in a tone of honest curiosity and confusion, with a sincere desire to understand Christian beliefs, most of the responses - including my own - would have been equally polite.

Cecilie poilte? That I'd like to see!

 

[Cecilie1200]

The Op lays out some of the reasons I find christianity impossible to accept. You choose not to address them, but rather to tell me I didn't write it nicely enough. Fair enough, I've been told before I'm not tender sometimes. Okie-dokie; now that we have all staked out our morally superior positions, let's talk.

Do you agree with Cecille that some branches of christianity reject the Trinity, Jesus as God and an after-life? Because I happen to think she might be wrong about those things.

Why should any of us address them, given your nasty tone? You make it very clear that you think we're all idiots, and our core beliefs, around which we base our lives, are so much ridiculous gibberish to you, so can you tell us what about that should inspire us to do anything but answer in the same tone? Point to me the part of your OP that says, "Please, sincerely open up and explain your beliefs so that I can criticize and mock them even further"?

If you walk up to me and my 17-month-old son and say, "Good grief, your baby is ugly and funny-looking", do you really think I'm going to launch into an enthusiastic attempt to convince you he's really cute, or am I going to tell you you're a complete jackass and possibly punch you in the nose, depending on my personal predilections? Why is the concept that snotty, condescending rudeness will and should be met with the same hard for you to grasp?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Maybe you can send me a fucking list of pre-approved words that I can use to try and express myself, Newby.

Apparently anything is preferable to you to discussing the substance of what I or any other non-christian has said on this thread. Why is that, I wonder?

There is no "substance" to "Christianity is ridiculous". Until and unless you genuinely accept and apologize for your "I'm so wonderful, and you're all so lame" tone of voice, you deserve nothing but the same in return. And if you're so goddamned incapable of civil discourse that you need someone to give you a list of acceptable words to do it with, then you REALLY don't deserve anything else in return.

Good grief, even I know the difference between polite, sincere discussion and snotty attacks, and can moderate myself between the two. What's your frigging problem?

 

[Madeline]

Cecille, the cure for what ails you is painfully obvious: stop reading this thread. Stop posting to it. I dunno where you get the notion that I wrote it directly to you but that just ain't so. We can carry on without you.

1,001 posts to claim "she started it" are not terribly illuminating.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Maybe you can send me a fucking list of pre-approved words that I can use to try and express myself, Newby.

Apparently anything is preferable to you to discussing the substance of what I or any other non-christian has said on this thread. Why is that, I wonder?

Maybe because nothing of substance has been said. Calling other's beliefs 'ridiculous', calling them 'nutters', implying they're stupid, etc... isn't going to win you any friends. I think you got just what you wanted out of your bashing op.

Precisely.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Madeline

You have every right to criticize Christianity and to lay out all the reasons why it isn't your path. It's the way you're going about doing this that has everyone in an uproar.

sky

Well thankies, Sky Dancer. I'm trying to be all ass-kissy but t'aint coming out right, I guess.

It's coming out just as you planned and you know it. You baited your hook, I hope your fishing expedition was successful, perhaps one of these fishing trips will finally teach you something, but I'm doubtful.

Does anyone else here feel the use of the term "ass-kissy" implies a lack of sincere remorse?