Why I Don't Believe

[JimBowie1958]

Who the FUCK is complaining that god won't let us into heaven? Do you see how delusional these theists are everyone? They hear and believe whatever the fuck they want to hear and believe. We're here trying to explain to this fool that god(s) don't really exist and there is no heaven and hell and this retard thinks we're complaining that we're not in the club.

I've read what other people have wrote. How can you or a god(s) ask us or expect us to believe your wild stories?

And if I tell you the Muslim story and say if you don't believe you'll go to hell, will you believe? How about the Jehova or Mormon stories or Greek God stories or any of the other religions? You'll know exactly why their stories are unbelievable and silly, but you can't do the same for your own religion. Adam and Eve, talking to snakes, living 800 years, parting water, the noah story, virgin birth, rose from the dead, performed miracles.

And we either have to believe you and that cock sucker Gismys or go to hell?

I agree completely............except, I am not trying to convince anyone that god and heaven DON'T exist. I am purely trying to explain why "I" don't believe it. As to what the OP says. I don't really care what others believe, until it effects ME. Then we have a problem. The whole point of these discussions, I THOUGHT, was to discuss "why we don't believe". But then we get caught up in the definition/usage of words and then we aren't even discussing the subject anymore. Because some believers are SO in the bubble of religion and belief, that they can't even comprehend the idea of not believing. Thus, those of us that don't believe, MUST be just digging in our heals and saying we don't want to believe.
That's just not the case. I would LOVE to believe that there is some true to all that. But without seeing any evidence, or even good argument for it, it's just not a believe proposition.

I would love to believe it too. In fact, for a long time when I still believed in god but abandoned any and all organized religions I always told myself that believing in god can't be a requirement. That is clearly what the men who invented the religion said though in order to stop people from even looking at other religions. I always wrestled with that growing up and I never believed all non christians go to hell. NEVER. So I guess I never believed the christian story even when I called myself a christian.

So for a long time I still believed in god and just figured no one knows when it comes to heaven and hell and those things. THEN it dawned on me with a help from a friend that the entire concept of god is made up. He showed me a bunch of great atheists and I even remember when I was in college George Carlin's anti religious rants made a lot of sense to me.

I guess I was never fully brainwashed like someone like Gismys is. Not even close. Too smart to fall for it. I know there are a lot of guys in his church who don't buy it either but they go along to get along and church is a great place to meet women so they say they are christians but are they really? Do they really know what all that involves?

P.S. I am here to kill all organized religions. Jesus is dead and christianity is just 1 of 1000 religions that came before or after. I don't want another religion to take its place either. I think theists need to go into the closet. You can't be president if you believe in gods. I want a scientific smart future not the same old thousands of years of being controlled by the rich because we are stupid sheep who will believe anything. Religion is the gauge. If we'll believe this we'll believe anything. Religion needs to at least go in the closet. ISIS is doing a good job in Iraq. After they take care of the christians we should go after the muslims.

lol, we will go underground, but not a closet.

And when we come back we wont make the mistake of tolerating evil cretinous vermin like you again.

 

[JimBowie1958]

As a young teen, I grew up in a neighborhood with both Christians and Jews and one day while walking I tried to reconcile why one God would have more than one religion. I considered the possibilities:
1 – All religions were true – this seemed unlikely since there were almost an infinite number across the planet and they appeared to fundamentally contradict one another in their morality, concept of God(s), history, etc.
2 – One religion was true while all others were false – this too seemed unlikely as why would God allow people to grow up learning lies and then judge them? Ideally it seemed God would want children to grow up without a religion and would, when they were adult enough to decide for themselves, choose which religion was true based on reason, morality, etc. It would be a conscious decision, not one made for them by their parents or community so if God were to later judge them at least they had a shot at salvation. Obviously this has never been the norm anywhere at any time in the past.
3 – No religion was true – this seemed the only logical answer then and didn’t seem so radical when I realized that if #2 above were true the majority of people in the world were WRONG. It seemed a modest leap from believing most people were wrong to all people were wrong (at that time I didn’t know anyone who admitted to me they did not believe in God).
Despite a lifetime of inquiry, I’ve never found a reason to change this decision.

You do not believe because you are ignorant about the entire subject.

There is truth of some degree in all faiths or they would go into extinction.

You do not believe because you do not want to believe and don't have the courage or honesty to speak truthfully to yourself.

 

[alang1216]

In every case that God in the Bible told anyone to kill another it was due to the behavior of the target, and not merely because they failed to believe in God.

Does that include the behavior of the infants and children too? And the animals?

The biggest single factor in people not believing in God is their ignorance about God and his track record.

Beg to differ here. In my case it was study of God and the history of the Bible that led to my certainty it was mythology.

And I know there is no such case with Christianity, though many have claimed to do just that, in Christianity violence was only allowed in cases of self defense and service to the nation.

Certainly there was plenty of violence precipitated by Christians. From the Crusades to the 30 years war Christianity was the reason for violence. Were these cases of self defense or service to the nation? I don't think so.

 

[alang1216]

You do not believe because you are ignorant about the entire subject.

There is truth of some degree in all faiths or they would go into extinction.

You do not believe because you do not want to believe and don't have the courage or honesty to speak truthfully to yourself.

Easy to throw around such statements but harder to prove them. For example:

You believe because you are ignorant about the entire subject.


You believe because you want to believe and don't have the courage or honesty to speak truthfully to yourself

 

[PratchettFan]

How is not believing something...........based on belief?

"So the most logical position is your story is not true."

If you don't see the belief in that statement, then you are trying very hard not to. That's the problem with dogma. You get stuck in a loop.

Not believing X is different than believing X is not true. You understand that right?
Lacking belief in a story is somehow dogma? That is the first time I have heard dogma being tied to atheism.

No. Failing to see what is there because it doesn't fit a pre-conceived definition is dogma. Which is exactly what you are doing. While this may be the first time you have heard dogma being tied to atheism, this is not the first time I have seen it done.

Unless, of course, you don't understand what the word "is" means.

 

[PratchettFan]

How am I saying only Christian theology is vaid?

And of course my position is the most rational. Lets start from the beginning. You walk up to me and tell me about god and miraculous stories. I ask for proof and all you can say is your tribe believes the 2000 year stories, and that if I don't buy in I'll go to hell? That is your argument and proof a god exists? Ancient stories? Because your priest/rabbi said so? Sucker.

So the most logical position is your story is not true.

As far as a god being real? There is nothing that points to the proof a god exists. If your stories are bullshit, what else ya got? If its what Boss is dishing out, try again. All his position boils down to is he believes because he wants to believe or can't believe otherwise.

Every conceivable argument, every imaginable piece of evidence for god is not without some fatal flaw or more likely explanation which precludes it from being used as definitive proof.

You need to read what you write. You did not like that I was not accepting your vision, an entirely Christian vision, of God. You said I wasn't helping. You want me to confine my view of God to the Christian God, I assume because that is what you are comfortable with.

Your position is based solely upon belief. You have no evidence to support it, just what you believe. You claim yours is the most logical position just because you believe it to be. How is that rational?

But do prove me wrong. I would love to see your objective evidence.

I reject all gods from the muslim, jew, mormon, jehova, christian, Greek gods, etc. Since Christianity is our main religion in the west, I pick on it, but the others suck just as bad too.

You want objective evidence? Here is just about every argument you can come up with for why you believe in god, and why you are a fucking idiot for believing what you believe,

Why there is no god

Do me a favor. Go through all the talking points and tell me what you have a problem with.

Maybe the rebuttals will help you realize that your position that a sky fairy cares about you is not as rational as me thinking you are fucking stupid. My position is the most likely truth.

Apparently you have difficulty with the concept of "objective evidence". I have read that site and it is pure Christianity. It may come from the negative side, but it is Christian nonetheless. I am not a Christian. I get that you have difficulty wrapping your mind around the fact that not everyone is a Christian or that there may be some different way of viewing God than your own.

Now, when you have some objective evidence to show that your position is more likely than mine, other than just saying that it must be because you have faith, then I would love to see it.

 

[PratchettFan]

You need to read what you write. You did not like that I was not accepting your vision, an entirely Christian vision, of God. You said I wasn't helping. You want me to confine my view of God to the Christian God, I assume because that is what you are comfortable with.

Your position is based solely upon belief. You have no evidence to support it, just what you believe. You claim yours is the most logical position just because you believe it to be. How is that rational?

But do prove me wrong. I would love to see your objective evidence.

How is not believing something...........based on belief?

Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color, or not collecting stamps a hobby.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god or gods, nothing more. If we deconstruct the term ‘atheism’ we find ‘a – theism’ which means ‘without – theism’ which, in turn, means ‘without – belief in god(s)’. It is, therefore, not a positive belief or a claim to knowledge. Instead, it is the default position of doubt, uncertainty and skepticism one may have regarding claims made by theists.

Just as it takes no faith to lack belief or remain uncertain concerning any other imaginable claim, it takes none to doubt the existence of a god or gods.

Every human-being ever born begins life as an implicit atheist and must be taught the concept of theism or, more commonly, indoctrinated with it.

Atheism has no sacred texts, objects, places or times, no rituals or creation stories, no positive beliefs, central tenants, modes of worship or supernatural claims, no implicit or derived moral codes, philosophies or world views and no central organisation or church. It fulfills none of the criteria that define a religion. See also: Atheism is a religion.

“To say that atheism requires faith is as dim-witted as saying that disbelief in pixies or leprechauns takes faith. Even if Einstein himself told me there was an elf on my shoulder, I would still ask for proof and I wouldn’t be wrong to ask.” – Geoff Mather

Yes, I have heard this dogma before - many times. It is the standard response, rather than actually responding to the issues. Then a few quotes, as if citing someone else's unsupported opinion actually constitutes evidence. You say you have no sacred texts, but what you are doing is citing chapter and verse.

I don't care whether your belief is positive or negative. Belief is an action. If you hold a position for which you have no objective evidence, then you are believing. Saying it is not belief just because you decide you want to define it that way changes absolutely nothing.

 

[PratchettFan]

"So the most logical position is your story is not true."

If you don't see the belief in that statement, then you are trying very hard not to. That's the problem with dogma. You get stuck in a loop.

Not believing X is different than believing X is not true. You understand that right?
Lacking belief in a story is somehow dogma? That is the first time I have heard dogma being tied to atheism.

So does a christian have faith that Jews, Muslims, Mormons and all other religions are fos?

Everyone on earth is an atheist. Christians just happen to believe in one more god than me. They don't believe the Muslim story, Jew story, Mormon story, Greek Gods. They know those gods don't exist.

They just can't apply that same logic to their own god.

I would agree. However, I would point out this applies to you as well.

 

[PostmodernProph]

We complain when you try to make lifestyle choices on our behalf based on those stories....

???....what lifestyle choice have I ever made on your behalf?......

Perhaps "you" was not the right choice of words. When I say "you" I mean religious individuals that work to pass laws prohibiting homosexual marriage

uh, dude?....you do realize, I hope, that its the left that's been starting lawsuits and passing laws redefining marriage to force their beliefs on the rest of society, right?......the law wasn't changed to prohibit homosexual marriage.....no such thing as homosexual marriage existed until you folks started shoving your beliefs down everyone's throats.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

In every case that God in the Bible told anyone to kill another it was due to the behavior of the target, and not merely because they failed to believe in God.

Does that include the behavior of the infants and children too? And the animals?

The biggest single factor in people not believing in God is their ignorance about God and his track record.

Beg to differ here. In my case it was study of God and the history of the Bible that led to my certainty it was mythology.

And I know there is no such case with Christianity, though many have claimed to do just that, in Christianity violence was only allowed in cases of self defense and service to the nation.

Certainly there was plenty of violence precipitated by Christians. From the Crusades to the 30 years war Christianity was the reason for violence. Were these cases of self defense or service to the nation? I don't think so.

dude, the Middle Ages were a violent time, for Christians and muslims and seculars as well.....its time for you to move into the 21st Century and stop measuring religion by what happened a thousand years ago.....

 

[pinqy]

and so you have chosen....

Explain exactly how any other choice would be possible.

okay....a person sits down and gets a real squinty look in his eyes...suddenly, they pop open and he says "I have decided!"......

That's kind of my point....it's not that easy, and it's not a free choice. You can't just choose to believe something that's contrary to your standards of knowledge.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Explain exactly how any other choice would be possible.

okay....a person sits down and gets a real squinty look in his eyes...suddenly, they pop open and he says "I have decided!"......

That's kind of my point....it's not that easy, and it's not a free choice. You can't just choose to believe something that's contrary to your standards of knowledge.

you couldn't be more wrong......you choose your standards of knowledge......freely.......and its as easy as making up your mind.....do you get stomach cramps when you think?.....

 

[pinqy]

okay....a person sits down and gets a real squinty look in his eyes...suddenly, they pop open and he says "I have decided!"......

That's kind of my point....it's not that easy, and it's not a free choice. You can't just choose to believe something that's contrary to your standards of knowledge.

you couldn't be more wrong......you choose your standards of knowledge......freely.......and its as easy as making up your mind.....do you get stomach cramps when you think?.....

No, you don't. As you've shown since you cannot make yourself believe in Bigfoot or change your standards of knowledge to include the weak evidence for Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster, etc.

 

[alang1216]

dude, ...its time for you to move into the 21st Century and stop measuring religion by what happened a thousand years ago.....

Ironic coming from someone who believes men who lived 2,000 years ago somehow knew more back then than we know today.

Maybe you should move into the 21st Century and re-evalute the writings of men who lived in a time of ignorance, superstitution, and fear. Men who didn't know why it rained or why it didn't rain, why there were earthquakes, floods, locust, and volcanos, why some were born different and others got sick and died.

Easy to understand how people who lived lives that were brutish and short and at the mercy of seemly random fate would want to believe they would inherit the earth and have eternal life in heaven. The irony there is that the comfort that religion brought them did nothing to improve their lives and, in fact impeded the scientific progress that could have improved their lives. They traded this life for the promise of one to come.

 

[oldfart]

Hi, you have received -833 reputation points from PostmodernProph.
Reputation was given for this post.

Comment:
there\'s at least one fucking idiot in every crowd.....

Regards,
PostmodernProph

That's very Christian of you. Thanks for reinforcing my point. Your mother must be very proud of you, with such excellent and innovative word choice.

 

[GISMYS]

dude, ...its time for you to move into the 21st Century and stop measuring religion by what happened a thousand years ago.....

Ironic coming from someone who believes men who lived 2,000 years ago somehow knew more back then than we know today.

Maybe you should move into the 21st Century and re-evalute the writings of men who lived in a time of ignorance, superstitution, and fear. Men who didn't know why it rained or why it didn't rain, why there were earthquakes, floods, locust, and volcanos, why some were born different and others got sick and died.

Easy to understand how people who lived lives that were brutish and short and at the mercy of seemly random fate would want to believe they would inherit the earth and have eternal life in heaven. The irony there is that the comfort that religion brought them did nothing to improve their lives and, in fact impeded the scientific progress that could have improved their lives. They traded this life for the promise of one to come.

YES!!! TRY TO THINK!!! This little life even if 100+ years is less than a drop oin the oceans of eternity!

 

[PratchettFan]

dude, ...its time for you to move into the 21st Century and stop measuring religion by what happened a thousand years ago.....

Ironic coming from someone who believes men who lived 2,000 years ago somehow knew more back then than we know today.

Maybe you should move into the 21st Century and re-evalute the writings of men who lived in a time of ignorance, superstitution, and fear. Men who didn't know why it rained or why it didn't rain, why there were earthquakes, floods, locust, and volcanos, why some were born different and others got sick and died.

Easy to understand how people who lived lives that were brutish and short and at the mercy of seemly random fate would want to believe they would inherit the earth and have eternal life in heaven. The irony there is that the comfort that religion brought them did nothing to improve their lives and, in fact impeded the scientific progress that could have improved their lives. They traded this life for the promise of one to come.

YES!!! TRY TO THINK!!! This little life even if 100+ years is less than a drop oin the oceans of eternity!

No worries. You get more tries. You'll get it right eventually.

 

[sealybobo]

How is not believing something...........based on belief?

Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color, or not collecting stamps a hobby.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god or gods, nothing more. If we deconstruct the term ‘atheism’ we find ‘a – theism’ which means ‘without – theism’ which, in turn, means ‘without – belief in god(s)’. It is, therefore, not a positive belief or a claim to knowledge. Instead, it is the default position of doubt, uncertainty and skepticism one may have regarding claims made by theists.

Just as it takes no faith to lack belief or remain uncertain concerning any other imaginable claim, it takes none to doubt the existence of a god or gods.

Every human-being ever born begins life as an implicit atheist and must be taught the concept of theism or, more commonly, indoctrinated with it.

Atheism has no sacred texts, objects, places or times, no rituals or creation stories, no positive beliefs, central tenants, modes of worship or supernatural claims, no implicit or derived moral codes, philosophies or world views and no central organisation or church. It fulfills none of the criteria that define a religion. See also: Atheism is a religion.

“To say that atheism requires faith is as dim-witted as saying that disbelief in pixies or leprechauns takes faith. Even if Einstein himself told me there was an elf on my shoulder, I would still ask for proof and I wouldn’t be wrong to ask.” – Geoff Mather

Yes, I have heard this dogma before - many times. It is the standard response, rather than actually responding to the issues. Then a few quotes, as if citing someone else's unsupported opinion actually constitutes evidence. You say you have no sacred texts, but what you are doing is citing chapter and verse.

I don't care whether your belief is positive or negative. Belief is an action. If you hold a position for which you have no objective evidence, then you are believing. Saying it is not belief just because you decide you want to define it that way changes absolutely nothing.

I simply have a source where they have already replied to just about everything a theist will say. If you want to call it my bible then fine. But my bible can change and we don't claim that a god inspired us to write it. We don't get tax write offs, we don't meet once a week.

So anytime you provide a link defending your position on USMB can we assume it is scripture? All that site does is reply back to all the fatally flawed arguments theists make trying to prove to other people that their god or any god exists. I've read it 100 times. So when I see one of your fatally flawed arguments and I know that site has already responded to that bad argument, rather than waste 5 minutes typing, I just go cut and paste.

Also, you can not use the bible to prove that god exists or that jesus is god. That's a fiction book as far as I'm concerned. Notice they don't even try to prove god exists in the bible? What they do is tell you he proved it 2000 years ago and now you have to just believe the camp fire stories. Blind faith. Or burn in hell.

At least I don't tell you if you believe in god you will burn in hell because hell is for bad and stupid people. If there was a hell, I don't think it would be for people who don't believe. That's what a church says when they want you to remain a member. I think being bad is what would send you to hell. I would also assume a real god wouldn't care if you doubted man because man lies a lot. So I would think after evil, being stupid would be the next thing to send you to hell. And if you have blind faith in impossible stories, how bright can you possibly be?

 

[GISMYS]

Ironic coming from someone who believes men who lived 2,000 years ago somehow knew more back then than we know today.

Maybe you should move into the 21st Century and re-evalute the writings of men who lived in a time of ignorance, superstitution, and fear. Men who didn't know why it rained or why it didn't rain, why there were earthquakes, floods, locust, and volcanos, why some were born different and others got sick and died.

Easy to understand how people who lived lives that were brutish and short and at the mercy of seemly random fate would want to believe they would inherit the earth and have eternal life in heaven. The irony there is that the comfort that religion brought them did nothing to improve their lives and, in fact impeded the scientific progress that could have improved their lives. They traded this life for the promise of one to come.

YES!!! TRY TO THINK!!! This little life even if 100+ years is less than a drop oin the oceans of eternity!

No worries. You get more tries. You'll get it right eventually.

YES!!! I LIVE MY LIFE AS A BLESSED son of ALMIGHTY GOD!!!and you???????

 

[sealybobo]

dude, ...its time for you to move into the 21st Century and stop measuring religion by what happened a thousand years ago.....

Ironic coming from someone who believes men who lived 2,000 years ago somehow knew more back then than we know today.

Maybe you should move into the 21st Century and re-evalute the writings of men who lived in a time of ignorance, superstitution, and fear. Men who didn't know why it rained or why it didn't rain, why there were earthquakes, floods, locust, and volcanos, why some were born different and others got sick and died.

Easy to understand how people who lived lives that were brutish and short and at the mercy of seemly random fate would want to believe they would inherit the earth and have eternal life in heaven. The irony there is that the comfort that religion brought them did nothing to improve their lives and, in fact impeded the scientific progress that could have improved their lives. They traded this life for the promise of one to come.

Great post.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes.