Why is gender-nonconformity bad? Alternatively, why must one's gender align with their sex?

[Stann]

You just said something, but you said nothing at all.

How did sex education 50 years ago make kids unsafe and uninformed?

It seems like you have a belief that you don't want to say out loud.

I don't know about where you live but essentially we had no sex education in Scranton Pennsylvania public schools. I live in Nebraska now and the public school in the town where I live has a good sex education program. Today's kids are much luckier, if they are given all the information they need they will hopefully make the right decisions for them.

 

[Ame®icano]

That which keeps the kids safe and informed. Always being age appropriate is an added plus.

Ever since schools started educating our kids about being safe and informed, it seems they became more unsafe, more confused and more promiscuous then ever before.

 

[Stann]

Ever since schools started educating our kids about being safe and informed, it seems they became more unsafe, more confused and more promiscuous then ever before.

The whole world is more dangerous. Is the ignorance and hatred out there that's killing us.

 

[The_Lyrical_Miracle]

I don't know about where you live but essentially we had no sex education in Scranton Pennsylvania public schools. I live in Nebraska now and the public school in the town where I live has a good sex education program. Today's kids are much luckier, if they are given all the information they need they will hopefully make the right decisions for them.

Dude, you're continuing to say things but say nothing at all.

What is a "good sex education program"? What are the "right decisions" that you're talking about?

The vague authoritarian language is creepy if not the norm these days .

 

[The_Lyrical_Miracle]

The whole world is more dangerous.

I disagree, the world certainly safer than it was in any previous century overall.

There's no need to partake in the constant leftist practice of proclaiming that we are the most evil and debilitated as we've ever been as a species right here and now as we have the freedom to go to Starbucks and tweet about it as we sip our cappacinos.

 

[Ame®icano]

The whole world is more dangerous. Is the ignorance and hatred out there that's killing us.

If you could explain please, what that has to do with what I posted?

 

[Baron Von Murderpaws]

Seems pretty simple to me.
If you have a penis, then you can not possibly mind seeing other penises or having people with penises see your penis.
Similarly with vaginas. There can not be any sense of privacy between those who have a vagina.
So mental sexual orientation or gender, really is totally irrelevant.
All that matters over sexual privacy is physical organs.

 

[Stann]

If you could explain please, what that has to do with what I posted?

You said the kids were more confused and in more dangerous situations. Yes they are we all are. That's why the more informed they are, the better their lives will be.

 

[Ame®icano]

Everyone is an individual on this Earth. No one can force you to accept another person's existence. But we all must tolerate their right to exist.

Your approach is as their existence is not tolerated. It is.
What is not tolerated is their behavior and pressure on rest of us to accept it.

Can you answer, why is a problem for man in a skirt to use man's bathroom?

 

[Ame®icano]

You said the kids were more confused and in more dangerous situations. Yes they are we all are. That's why the more informed they are, the better their lives will be.

More informed about what? That there are 63 gender identities? Or that chopping of their genitals is perfectly normal? Or that boys is skirts have to accepted in girls locker rooms?

 

[Stann]

Your approach is as their existence is not tolerated. It is.
What is not tolerated is their behavior and pressure on rest of us to accept it.

Can you answer, why is a problem for man in a skirt to use man's bathroom?

Transgender / transvestites probably take the most extreme measures of any people on earth to avoid using public restrooms. The ones who try to use men's bathrooms often get beat up or murdered. These people are dumb, they're going to use the women's restrooms if need be. Imagine what you would do if you feared for your Life by going to a public restroom. That's why so many institutions, especially educational ones, are becoming proactive about it and allowing them to do so. If people were more accepting it would be a totally different story. Any minority that is threatened in any manner should be protected by the laws of our country.

 

[Ame®icano]

Transgender / transvestites probably take the most extreme measures of any people on earth to avoid using public restrooms. The ones who try to use men's bathrooms often get beat up or murdered. These people are dumb, they're going to use the women's restrooms if need be. Imagine what you would do if you feared for your Life by going to a public restroom. That's why so many institutions, especially educational ones, are becoming proactive about it and allowing them to do so. If people were more accepting it would be a totally different story. Any minority that is threatened in any manner should be protected by the laws of our country.

You're projecting that every restroom is located on some truck stop where dumb people are just waiting for transgenders to beat them up. You know very well I am not talking about those cases.

Take any private or public company, or school, or public institution, where there is virtually no risk of being assaulted, and try to answer my question again.

Also, when you say "minority" what exactly do you mean by that?

 

[1stNickD]

I'll preface this by saying that I have never made a thread on any forum, nor have I explored the CDZ. I read the guidelines for this subsection, and I didn't encounter anything outlining any specific format which these debates must follow, so long as the exchange remains respectful. Thus, if I miss any rules with regards to the creation of this thread, please do tell me.

I will start this thread off with a claim or a series of interrelated claims, followed by definitions with regards to those claim(s), and then I will outline a simple argument justifying those claim(s) What I seek out of this thread is a firm counterargument to one or more of these claims, based in a traditional secular argument.

Claims

1. Gender is not defined by sex.
2. Gender-nonconformity is neither irrational nor a mental illness.
3. There is no secular reason not to accommodate the gender-nonconforming.

Definitions

1. Sex, defined as the chromosome configuration you are born with.
2. Gender, defined as the personality traits traditionally associated with one sex or the other (i.e., femininity, masculinity).
3. Gender-nonconforming, defined as someone that does not align with the gender associated with their sex.
4. Accommodation, defined as allowing these gender-nonconforming individuals to do anything others within their own gender are allowed to do, given their biology does not offer them a distinct advantage.
5. Secular, this really shouldn't need to be defined, but some people seem to think "secular" means "atheist." No, it doesn't. Secular means areligious. Religious people can and do make secular arguments, because every argument they make where they do not use religion or spirit as a crutch is a secular argument.

Arguments

1. Gender is not defined by sex. I'm sure we can agree that it is fundamentally undeniable that biological men and biological women have a set of statistically distinct traits, both physiological and psychological, and that to some extent, these traits are caused by biology. The extent to which they're caused by biology is irrelevant to our purposes here, but what is relevant is the word "statistical." In any group, including humans at-large, there is a statistical norm for any trait you'd like to pick out of the bunch (given that it may be measured numerically). However, that statistical norm is just that: statistical and a norm. Every group on this planet, including the two demographically-dominant sexes, regularly see traits that deviate significantly from the statistical norm.
   
   Case-in-point: height (see: fig. 1). As shown in this neat little chart, and as you probably already know, biological men are statistically taller than biological women. But a statistically significant chunk of men are shorter than a statistically significant chunk of women.
   
   Now, what does height have to do with gender? Gender is not synonymous with sex. Even if you are to claim that gender must align with someone's sex, the two are not the same. Gender is a set of traits that we traditionally associate with one sex or another, often pertaining to personality. As in, "men are assertive." Or, "women are neurotic." These two statements are provably true (See: fig. 2), just like sex-height claims, assuming that they are statistical statements, not absolute statements. Men are indeed more assertive. Women indeed are more neurotic. But the thing is, not all men are assertive. And not all women are neurotic. Just like with height, there is a great deal of overlap between the sexes, and there lay the issue of claiming that gender must align with one's sex.
   
   If a biological female's personality traits firmly fall inside the "masculine" box, and they believe the associations made with the term "male" and the pronouns "he/him" more accurately fit them, how is that wrong? I'd argue it isn't, because this individual's gender, their personality--every visible and relevant trait--goes against the gender they were assigned at birth. This is statistically evident through basic trait variance. Therefore, gender is not defined by sex.
2. Gender-nonconformity is neither irrational nor a mental illness. Assuming that the prior claim is true, it cannot be reasonably claimed that being gender-nonconforming is in itself irrational, given that there is no intrinsic part of gender-nonconformity that does not comport with reality. However, the topic of mental illness is completely different.
   
   I will start by saying there is a distinction between gender dysphoria and gender nonconformity. Gender-nonconformity is exactly how I defined it, but gender dysphoria is when the misalignment between your assigned gender and your perceived gender causes distress. Gender dysphoria is therefore a mental illness, not because gender-nonconformity is a mental illness, but rather because of the anxiety and depression that some face in light of this misalignment. The solution to mental illnesses, if possible, is to address the route cause, not to squash the symptoms; in this case, the route cause is that misalignment, so the solution is the rectification of that misalignment. Therefore, gender-nonconformity is neither irrational nor a mental illness.
3. Last but not least, there is no secular reason not to accommodate the gender-nonconforming. A "secular" reason, in my mind, is any reason guided by enlightenment rationality. Appeals to authority do not fall under "secular" reasoning, and quoting a religious text as a reason is an appeal to authority. While I am not denying the right of the individual to accept whomever they'd like into their lives, and to refer to others how they wish within the confines of their own property, my claim here is that non-accommodation of the gender-nonconforming has no rational basis.
   
   The reasoning here is simple. If one is to do something entirely rational, as follows in my second claim, and this rational action does not impose itself on the well-being of others, others can not rationally act in a discriminatory manner against them. The same applies to the assumption of an identity which does not associate itself with actions that are either irrational and/or impose themselves on the well-being of others. Gender-nonconformity is not irrational, as per the second argument, and it does not intrinsically harm the well-being of others, therefore there is no secular reason not to accommodate the gender-nonconforming.

Images

Figure 1: Relationship between height and biological sex
View attachment 551503

Figure 2: Relationship between big five personality and gender, compared between executives and non-executives
View attachment 551470

Notes (edited in after the fact, because this dumb fuck accidentally posted this early)

1. I will be using the big five personality measurements and the data regarding that as my back-up for any personality-related claims or arguments. Not only is it the most respected in the scientific community, it also has been thoroughly researched on many fronts, and that wealth of statistics is very useful for the purposes of an argument. Read more about it here.
   
   Yes, this is a Wikipedia page. If you request a more direct source, I will provide you one.

Biology is science. There are two genders. Spin away, but there are two genders. Period.

There may be girly girls and there may be tomboy girls, but they are girls.

There are girly men and there are manly men. But they are both men.

You can cut parts off or you can sew parts on, but men are men and women are women. And a man who mutilates himself is still a man even if he puts on a dress and heels, no amount of charts and twisted conversation can change the truth. And people have a right to be repulsed by those who choose to pretend otherwise. A man who has a fetish to pretend to be a woman is not a woman, he is a man with a fetish that many, if not most, people find disgustng.

 

[Stann]

You're projecting that every restroom is located on some truck stop where dumb people are just waiting for transgenders to beat them up. You know very well I am not talking about those cases.

Take any private or public company, or school, or public institution, where there is virtually no risk of being assaulted, and try to answer my question again.

Also, when you say "minority" what exactly do you mean by that?

I don't need a project anything that's in the crime statistics. Your question about minority made me look up information on transgender people. They comprise approximately 1.4 million people in the United States, that would be a minority population. Interestingly enough the state with the most transgendered individuals is Hawaii. And I can conclude from that from knowing about Hawaiian culture they are very loving people and they don't begrudge anyone. Too bad the rest of the country isn't that way. The next state with the most transgender individuals this is on a percent basis all these figures is California which is not surprising the third state is surprising again but if you think about it really not it's New Mexico and that's because American Indians are very accepting of transgender people. In the past especially before contamination by the white culture, only the brightest of the braves were allowed to marry two spirited people ( transgendered ). Transgender American natives worked with the women and did women's chores.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

This aught to be good.........

You mean This "ought" to be good?

 

[BlackSand]

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I don't need a project anything that's in the crime statistics. Your question about minority made me look up information on transgender people. They comprise approximately 1.4 million people in the United States, that would be a minority population. Interestingly enough the state with the most transgendered individuals is Hawaii. And I can conclude from that from knowing about Hawaiian culture they are very loving people and they don't begrudge anyone. Too bad the rest of the country isn't that way. The next state with the most transgender individuals this is on a percent basis all these figures is California which is not surprising the third state is surprising again but if you think about it really not it's New Mexico and that's because American Indians are very accepting of transgender people. In the past especially before contamination by the white culture, only the brightest of the braves were allowed to marry two spirited people ( transgendered ). Transgender American natives worked with the women and did women's chores.

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You really need to stop lacing your Scooby Snacks with bath salts before firing another one up ...

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[Stann]

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You really need to stop lacing your Scooby Snacks with bath salts before firing another one up ...

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I have no idea what you're talking about, that sounds like some crazy drug thing you do I'm not interested you're sick your hatred is eating you up alive you don't even realize it.

 

[BlackSand]

I have no idea what you're talking about, that sounds like some crazy drug thing you do I'm not interested you're sick your hatred is eating you up alive you don't even realize it.

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That's not hatred ... I was just trying to do you a solid there Geronimo ...

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[Stann]

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That's not hatred ... I was just trying to do you a solid there Geronimo ...

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If that was a genuine compliment thank you. I still don't do drugs. Thanks anyway.

 

[Ame®icano]

I don't need a project anything that's in the crime statistics. Your question about minority made me look up information on transgender people. They comprise approximately 1.4 million people in the United States, that would be a minority population. Interestingly enough the state with the most transgendered individuals is Hawaii. And I can conclude from that from knowing about Hawaiian culture they are very loving people and they don't begrudge anyone. Too bad the rest of the country isn't that way. The next state with the most transgender individuals this is on a percent basis all these figures is California which is not surprising the third state is surprising again but if you think about it really not it's New Mexico and that's because American Indians are very accepting of transgender people. In the past especially before contamination by the white culture, only the brightest of the braves were allowed to marry two spirited people ( transgendered ). Transgender American natives worked with the women and did women's chores.

Did you know that 80% of statistics are made up on the spot? So, when your argument is referring on "crime statistic", maybe you should post a link to that statistic.

No, they're not minority in any legal sense. It's made up class of people, that already have their assigned group, male or female. If any group of some interest is considered minority, then we can say that soy farmers are political group that need special protection. Then incel poets could have their interest represented. There are millions of NPCs in the country, don't they need special rights and protections? On, here is another one, there are couple of millions of pedophiles in the US, should they get special minority privileges?

You said before, those that use man's bathrooms are getting beaten up or murdered and the solution for them is to impose their special needs on another protected group who doesn't want them there neither, but they cannot fight them because they're not physically capable? If they're not comfortable in man's bathrooms, and they don't feel safe there, what makes you think that women are comfortable having them in women's bathrooms and that women are feeling safe in their presence?