Why is gender-nonconformity bad? Alternatively, why must one's gender align with their sex?

[Stann]

thought you said goodbye.

And I did leave for a while now I'm back. Somebody's got to help you people out of the dark ages.

 

[BlackSand]

And I did leave for a while now I'm back. Somebody's got to help you people out of the dark ages.

.

We aren't in the Dark Ages and aren't asking for your nefarious coercion driven by your emotional pleas for compliance.
Now if there is anything you would like to debate, or possibly contribute to conversation, that would be welcome.

.​

 

[Stann]

.

We aren't in the Dark Ages and aren't asking for your nefarious coercion driven by your emotional pleas for compliance.
Now if there is anything you would like to debate, or possibly contribute to conversation, that would be welcome.

.​

Already been there, done that. Unlike you people, I don't like repeating myself endlessly to hear my own voice. I'll let new people like yumegari debate with you. You can't compete with impeccable logic and deductive reasoning. I know you will try but you won't even be able to get some traction going.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Already been there, done that. Unlike you people, I don't like repeating myself endlessly to hear my own voice. I'll let new people like yumegari debate with you. You can't compete with impeccable logic and deductive reasoning. I know you will try but you won't even be able to get some traction going.

Let me get this right. You say you DON'T like repeating yourself.


I do believe my mind is now officially blown.

 

[iceberg]

Already been there, done that. Unlike you people, I don't like repeating myself endlessly to hear my own voice. I'll let new people like yumegari debate with you. You can't compete with impeccable logic and deductive reasoning. I know you will try but you won't even be able to get some traction going.

you hear your own voice when you type?

do you sound like John boy Walton in his later years or magnum pi?

as to the topic, you don't seem to want to speak to it but rather think we all need saving. how does that help bolster a point you may have?

 

[Stann]

Let me get this right. You say you DON'T like repeating yourself.


I do believe my mind is now officially blown.

Thank you, that's one pretentious poster down.

 

[Weatherman2020]

I'll preface this by saying that I have never made a thread on any forum, nor have I explored the CDZ. I read the guidelines for this subsection, and I didn't encounter anything outlining any specific format which these debates must follow, so long as the exchange remains respectful. Thus, if I miss any rules with regards to the creation of this thread, please do tell me.

I will start this thread off with a claim or a series of interrelated claims, followed by definitions with regards to those claim(s), and then I will outline a simple argument justifying those claim(s) What I seek out of this thread is a firm counterargument to one or more of these claims, based in a traditional secular argument.

Claims

1. Gender is not defined by sex.
2. Gender-nonconformity is neither irrational nor a mental illness.
3. There is no secular reason not to accommodate the gender-nonconforming.

Definitions

1. Sex, defined as the chromosome configuration you are born with.
2. Gender, defined as the personality traits traditionally associated with one sex or the other (i.e., femininity, masculinity).
3. Gender-nonconforming, defined as someone that does not align with the gender associated with their sex.
4. Accommodation, defined as allowing these gender-nonconforming individuals to do anything others within their own gender are allowed to do, given their biology does not offer them a distinct advantage.
5. Secular, this really shouldn't need to be defined, but some people seem to think "secular" means "atheist." No, it doesn't. Secular means areligious. Religious people can and do make secular arguments, because every argument they make where they do not use religion or spirit as a crutch is a secular argument.

Arguments

1. Gender is not defined by sex. I'm sure we can agree that it is fundamentally undeniable that biological men and biological women have a set of statistically distinct traits, both physiological and psychological, and that to some extent, these traits are caused by biology. The extent to which they're caused by biology is irrelevant to our purposes here, but what is relevant is the word "statistical." In any group, including humans at-large, there is a statistical norm for any trait you'd like to pick out of the bunch (given that it may be measured numerically). However, that statistical norm is just that: statistical and a norm. Every group on this planet, including the two demographically-dominant sexes, regularly see traits that deviate significantly from the statistical norm.
   
   Case-in-point: height (see: fig. 1). As shown in this neat little chart, and as you probably already know, biological men are statistically taller than biological women. But a statistically significant chunk of men are shorter than a statistically significant chunk of women.
   
   Now, what does height have to do with gender? Gender is not synonymous with sex. Even if you are to claim that gender must align with someone's sex, the two are not the same. Gender is a set of traits that we traditionally associate with one sex or another, often pertaining to personality. As in, "men are assertive." Or, "women are neurotic." These two statements are provably true (See: fig. 2), just like sex-height claims, assuming that they are statistical statements, not absolute statements. Men are indeed more assertive. Women indeed are more neurotic. But the thing is, not all men are assertive. And not all women are neurotic. Just like with height, there is a great deal of overlap between the sexes, and there lay the issue of claiming that gender must align with one's sex.
   
   If a biological female's personality traits firmly fall inside the "masculine" box, and they believe the associations made with the term "male" and the pronouns "he/him" more accurately fit them, how is that wrong? I'd argue it isn't, because this individual's gender, their personality--every visible and relevant trait--goes against the gender they were assigned at birth. This is statistically evident through basic trait variance. Therefore, gender is not defined by sex.
2. Gender-nonconformity is neither irrational nor a mental illness. Assuming that the prior claim is true, it cannot be reasonably claimed that being gender-nonconforming is in itself irrational, given that there is no intrinsic part of gender-nonconformity that does not comport with reality. However, the topic of mental illness is completely different.
   
   I will start by saying there is a distinction between gender dysphoria and gender nonconformity. Gender-nonconformity is exactly how I defined it, but gender dysphoria is when the misalignment between your assigned gender and your perceived gender causes distress. Gender dysphoria is therefore a mental illness, not because gender-nonconformity is a mental illness, but rather because of the anxiety and depression that some face in light of this misalignment. The solution to mental illnesses, if possible, is to address the route cause, not to squash the symptoms; in this case, the route cause is that misalignment, so the solution is the rectification of that misalignment. Therefore, gender-nonconformity is neither irrational nor a mental illness.
3. Last but not least, there is no secular reason not to accommodate the gender-nonconforming. A "secular" reason, in my mind, is any reason guided by enlightenment rationality. Appeals to authority do not fall under "secular" reasoning, and quoting a religious text as a reason is an appeal to authority. While I am not denying the right of the individual to accept whomever they'd like into their lives, and to refer to others how they wish within the confines of their own property, my claim here is that non-accommodation of the gender-nonconforming has no rational basis.
   
   The reasoning here is simple. If one is to do something entirely rational, as follows in my second claim, and this rational action does not impose itself on the well-being of others, others can not rationally act in a discriminatory manner against them. The same applies to the assumption of an identity which does not associate itself with actions that are either irrational and/or impose themselves on the well-being of others. Gender-nonconformity is not irrational, as per the second argument, and it does not intrinsically harm the well-being of others, therefore there is no secular reason not to accommodate the gender-nonconforming.

Images

Figure 1: Relationship between height and biological sex
View attachment 551503

Figure 2: Relationship between big five personality and gender, compared between executives and non-executives
View attachment 551470

Notes (edited in after the fact, because this dumb fuck accidentally posted this early)

1. I will be using the big five personality measurements and the data regarding that as my back-up for any personality-related claims or arguments. Not only is it the most respected in the scientific community, it also has been thoroughly researched on many fronts, and that wealth of statistics is very useful for the purposes of an argument. Read more about it here.
   
   Yes, this is a Wikipedia page. If you request a more direct source, I will provide you one.

Everyone who thinks they’re Napoleon should be given an Army and a map of Russia.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Since none of you take the issue seriously or have any rational solutions for the perceived problem and you keep condemning these people to death I'd say you are the ones that are being insanely melodramatic.

"Since you don't agree with me, you obviously don't take this seriously . . . which allows me to just ignore the points I can't answer."

You have not once so much as acknowledged the issue of women's safety, other than to wave your hand and say, "I don't care about that". I'd say YOU don't take this issue seriously. And why should you? It doesn't affect you at all, except in your ability to flatter yourself that you're a "good person" because you mouth the politically correct line.

 

[BlackSand]

Already been there, done that. Unlike you people, I don't like repeating myself endlessly to hear my own voice. I'll let new people like yumegari debate with you. You can't compete with impeccable logic and deductive reasoning. I know you will try but you won't even be able to get some traction going.

.

It's a good thing we are not debating any of your delusions but try to stay on topic.
If you don't want to discuss the topic the staff was kind enough to build you a Lounge where you can chit-chat.

.​

 

[Blues Man]

All human behavior including sexuality exist on a continuum.

When you realize this truth then you can understand that some people will be attracted to the same sex. Some will self identify with the opposite gender etc.

I don't have a problem with that but I also recognize the truth that a person born with xy chromosomes is physically different from a person born with xx chromosomes.

These are just facts and should not be polarizing.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

.

It's a good thing we are not debating any of your delusions but try to stay on topic.
If you don't want to discuss the topic the staff was kind enough to build you a Lounge where you can chit-chat.

.​

Stann is here to troll and he is being allowed to troll the clean debate forum because of the agenda involved.

It's pretty much a microcosm of our society as a whole in that the lunatic woke control the conversation because of their access to power and not because they are anywhere close to the majority.

 

[boedicca]

The whole problem arises because of the men's intolerance in the men's room. You can't change your people are. That creates a big dilemma. The solution like all things has to be in compromise. Simply saying that all people that are born male must use the restroom for meals doesn't apply in this situation.

Say what? I didn't say that all people who are born male must use the Men's room for MEALS. Your emotional problems are for you to deal with. Nobody else has to make a compromise for them.

 

[YoursTruly]

Oh yeah, Tranny's aren't weirdo's. SMH
I wasn't sure where to laugh or throw up.
BTW, I watch it passed the arm band thing. It get's disgusting.
I think there's an age thing warning.


MODS Please delete if you think this is too much.

 

[Stann]

Say what? I didn't say that all people who are born male must use the Men's room for MEALS. Your emotional problems are for you to deal with. Nobody else has to make a compromise for them.

I have arthritis in my hands I use a device on this phone that allows me to speak and it prints out the words it doesn't always print out the correct words that's the reason for that glitch I didn't bother to correct it cuz I knew no matter what I'd be condemned by the people on here for the things I say.

 

[Stann]

Stann is here to troll and he is being allowed to troll the clean debate forum because of the agenda involved.

It's pretty much a microcosm of our society as a whole in that the lunatic woke control the conversation because of their access to power and not because they are anywhere close to the majority.

All along I've been making specific points to try to counter your misinformation on here. The one that irked me the most was the following. I made the statement that no transvestite/ transgender person chooses to be to use a public restroom. The poster whoever it was use the word chose that is the same word that they used to describe gays they choose to be that way it was sickening to me it was revolting to me that anybody could still think like that. They don't choose to be gay they don't choose to be sinful they don't choose to be evil they don't choose to be break the law these are all things that people did to them to try to lessen their lives and now you're doing it to transgenders I'm sorry but it's not right I know there's a solution for this perceived problem you have that they're using the same bathroom as women they've been doing that for decades if not centuries what is wrong with you people that's all I'm asking something is wrong with you if there's nothing wrong with the transgenders despite your efforts to make it look that way they're just people and this is the way they must live they don't choose to live this way they must live this way in order to feel like they exist and of story I'm sick of talking to you people you're not worth it.

 

[Captain Caveman]

When I was a kid, when we wanted to see freaks walking about, it cost us money to get tickets for the circus.

Now, it's trying to adjust to watch them wander about our streets free of charge.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

All human behavior including sexuality exist on a continuum.

When you realize this truth then you can understand that some people will be attracted to the same sex. Some will self identify with the opposite gender etc.

I don't have a problem with that but I also recognize the truth that a person born with xy chromosomes is physically different from a person born with xx chromosomes.

These are just facts and should not be polarizing.

Great post. Thanks

 

[BlackSand]

All along I've been making specific points to try to counter your misinformation on here. The one that irked me the most was the following. I made the statement that no transvestite/ transgender person chooses to be to use a public restroom. The poster whoever it was use the word chose that is the same word that they used to describe gays they choose to be that way it was sickening to me it was revolting to me that anybody could still think like that. They don't choose to be gay they don't choose to be sinful they don't choose to be evil they don't choose to be break the law these are all things that people did to them to try to lessen their lives and now you're doing it to transgenders I'm sorry but it's not right I know there's a solution for this perceived problem you have that they're using the same bathroom as women they've been doing that for decades if not centuries what is wrong with you people that's all I'm asking something is wrong with you if there's nothing wrong with the transgenders despite your efforts to make it look that way they're just people and this is the way they must live they don't choose to live this way they must live this way in order to feel like they exist and of story I'm sick of talking to you people you're not worth it.

.

Just like everything else you mentioned, they don't get to choose which gender specific bathroom or locker room they use either ...

.​

 

[Captain Caveman]

All human behavior including sexuality exist on a continuum.

When you realize this truth then you can understand that some people will be attracted to the same sex. Some will self identify with the opposite gender etc.

I don't have a problem with that but I also recognize the truth that a person born with xy chromosomes is physically different from a person born with xx chromosomes.

These are just facts and should not be polarizing.

Science may be wrong, but nature wants animals to breed, otherwise the word extinction rears it's head. Two penis's or two vagina's knocking each other doesn't work. So in effect, a desert island of gays will die out. And I hope they don't forget that it took a traditional bloke and traditional lass to have made them.

Now, if they want to push brown putty uphill or lick carpet, fair enough, but there should be a law for science to steer clear of them wanting kids, leave the innocent out of this mess.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

All along I've been making specific points to try to counter your misinformation on here. The one that irked me the most was the following. I made the statement that no transvestite/ transgender person chooses to be to use a public restroom. The poster whoever it was use the word chose that is the same word that they used to describe gays they choose to be that way it was sickening to me it was revolting to me that anybody could still think like that. They don't choose to be gay they don't choose to be sinful they don't choose to be evil they don't choose to be break the law these are all things that people did to them to try to lessen their lives and now you're doing it to transgenders I'm sorry but it's not right I know there's a solution for this perceived problem you have that they're using the same bathroom as women they've been doing that for decades if not centuries what is wrong with you people that's all I'm asking something is wrong with you if there's nothing wrong with the transgenders despite your efforts to make it look that way they're just people and this is the way they must live they don't choose to live this way they must live this way in order to feel like they exist and of story I'm sick of talking to you people you're not worth it.

Have you ever considered literacy?

Yes, we know that you are just about to go and you will take all your toys home with you if you don't get your way.

You sure keep saying so as you ball up your chubby little fists and shake them in childish pique.