Why is jesus not a jew in churches?

[Newby]

Good thing I don't believe in a G-d who would condemn people for not following every law.

What a wacko pov.

It's not a point of view, it's what is stated in scripture. Are you saying you can break the law without consequences then?

not *my* scripture....

i don't like insulting people's beliefs, but please don't try to tell me that yours is somehow superior to mine.

because that would only make you look like an idiot.

got it?

the way we see christian beliefs is that a bunch of guys wrote down some stuff and constantine decided to edit it so that a bunch of romans would be obedient. following yet? why? because it ultimately comes down to belief. only an idiot thinks i'm going to hell because i don't think their beliefs are superior to mine.

So, where do your beliefs come from then? And what then are the repercussions of not following Halakhah to the letter?

Edit:

Also, I was not insulting your religion at all, nor was I making any statement of surperiority. I was asking a quesiton, a very simple and straight forward question.

What I bolded of your writing is, by the way, an insult. So maybe you should practice what you preach?

And I never said you were going to hell, I was asking if you were not then condemned since there is no way to satisfy Jewish law 100%? Again, another question, you pass up a chance to educate so that you can rather insult. Either that or you don't have an answer? If that's the case, then just say so.

 

[Newby]

I am not making it up.
Where have I told a Jew who their leaders are?
Jesus was a Rabbi in the tradition of the hasidim and not the post 70 AD midrash rabbis of today.
Now we have BOTH Christians and Jews denying historical fact because it does not match their ideology.
No wonder folks run from religion these days.
The historical use of the word "orthodox" in referring to the Jewish religion is not analogous to it's modern use. Jesus would not have been allowed to preach in any of the communities or allowed to teach in the synagogues of the Galilee region if he were not a practicing orthodox practicing Jew of his time.

I believe that he believes that the Bible is complete fiction, and he does not take anything that they say about Jesus as fact. That is where the disconnect is, the Bible clearly states Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi and preached in synagogues. I'm guessing he refutes that.

I believe what we have is one side stating that Jesus was the son of God and the other stating that is wrong all Jesus was was a great teacher.
Religous beliefs that are polar.
And I am caught in the middle stating what history was.

From what I was reading, the argument was whether or not Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi? If you believe the Bible to be factual, then you believe that he was both a Jewish Rabbi and the Son of God. CMike believes that he was neither.

 

[jillian]

So, where do your beliefs come from then? And what then are the repercussions of not following Halakhah to the letter?

Edit:

Also, I was not insulting your religion at all, nor was I making any statement of surperiority. I was asking a quesiton, a very simple and straight forward question.

What I bolded of your writing is, by the way, an insult. So maybe you should practice what you preach?

And I never said you were going to hell, I was asking if you were not then condemned since there is no way to satisfy Jewish law 100%? Again, another question, you pass up a chance to educate so that you can rather insult. Either that or you don't have an answer? If that's the case, then just say so.

my beliefs? come from my religious upbringing and my own search.

when you ask if we're not going to be condemned, that is *your* concept, not ours. There is no concept of hell in judaism. nor does judaism believe that if you are not a jew, there is no heaven.

as for what's in bolded... that IS how we see it. It was an honest answer... the point was that since we don't see the validity in your belief system, those beliefs are meaningless to us from a religious perspective. am i respectful of others' beliefs? yes. you'll never see me tell someone they follow a false g-d. I see religions as different languages with which to speak to G-d and I believe he understands all of them.

THAT is the point. Try reading with comprehension instead of getting your back up because I found what *you* said offensive.

 

[Newby]

So, where do your beliefs come from then? And what then are the repercussions of not following Halakhah to the letter?

Edit:

Also, I was not insulting your religion at all, nor was I making any statement of surperiority. I was asking a quesiton, a very simple and straight forward question.

What I bolded of your writing is, by the way, an insult. So maybe you should practice what you preach?

And I never said you were going to hell, I was asking if you were not then condemned since there is no way to satisfy Jewish law 100%? Again, another question, you pass up a chance to educate so that you can rather insult. Either that or you don't have an answer? If that's the case, then just say so.

my beliefs? come from my religious upbringing and my own search.

when you ask if we're not going to be condemned, that is *your* concept, not ours. There is no concept of hell in judaism. nor does judaism believe that if you are not a jew, there is no heaven.

as for what's in bolded... that IS how we see it. It was an honest answer... the point was that since we don't see the validity in your belief system, those beliefs are meaningless to us from a religious perspective. am i respectful of others' beliefs? yes. you'll never see me tell someone they follow a false g-d. I see religions as different languages with which to speak to G-d and I believe he understands all of them.

THAT is the point. Try reading with comprehension instead of getting your back up because I found what *you* said offensive.

I don't really care if you found what I said offensive, Jillian, that's your problem, not mine. You can't offend me because I am secure in what I believe. I simply said that what you said was offensive to Christian belief, so you should not throw stones at glass houses when you live in one yourself.

So your beliefs do not come from the Torah then? There is the concept of death, i.e. separation from God, and eternal life? For further clarification, the sin of Adam resulted in 'death', as opposed to eternal life with God, so how do Jews deal with that conept?

 

[jillian]

I don't really care if you found what I said offensive, Jillian, that's your problem, not mine. You can't offend me because I am secure in what I believe. I simply said that what you said was offensive to Christian belief, so you should not throw stones at glass houses when you live in one yourself.

So your beliefs do not come from the Torah then? There is the concept of death, i.e. separation from God, and eternal life?

what are you talking about? yes, there is a concept of death because death is inevitable. but there is NO concept of hell. nor do i believe you're going to hell for your beliefs (unlike what you said). my upbringing was jewish, genius, so what religion I have came from that, with some of my own search tossed in for good measure. mostly, i don't like organized religion because of exactly the type of garbage you just posted.

frankly, i don't care what anyone believes if they don't hurt anyone else and they don't interfere with *my* beliefs..

so it's more that i was pointing out that you're an idiot...

 

[Newby]

I don't really care if you found what I said offensive, Jillian, that's your problem, not mine. You can't offend me because I am secure in what I believe. I simply said that what you said was offensive to Christian belief, so you should not throw stones at glass houses when you live in one yourself.

So your beliefs do not come from the Torah then? There is the concept of death, i.e. separation from God, and eternal life?

what are you talking about? yes, there is a concept of death because death is inevitable. but there is NO concept of hell. nor do i believe you're going to hell for your beliefs (unlike what you said). my upbringing was jewish, genius, so what religion I have came from that, with some of my own search tossed in for good measure. mostly, i don't like organized religion because of exactly the type of garbage you just posted.

frankly, i don't care what anyone believes if they don't hurt anyone else and they don't interfere with *my* beliefs..

so it's more that i was pointing out that you're an idiot...

Well, I happen to agree with you about the concept of hell. Jesus never spoke of hell, but He did speak of separation from God, i.e. death. The Old Testament speaks of the very same thing with the story of Adam and Eve. So, you don't believe in an afterlife/eternal life then? Just blessings or curses while you're alive here?

And it has nothing to do with 'organized' religion, this concept is straight from the Bible. I was simply asking how your religion reconciles death versus eternal life?

 

[amrchaos]

I don't really care if you found what I said offensive, Jillian, that's your problem, not mine. You can't offend me because I am secure in what I believe. I simply said that what you said was offensive to Christian belief, so you should not throw stones at glass houses when you live in one yourself.

So your beliefs do not come from the Torah then? There is the concept of death, i.e. separation from God, and eternal life?

what are you talking about? yes, there is a concept of death because death is inevitable. but there is NO concept of hell. nor do i believe you're going to hell for your beliefs (unlike what you said). my upbringing was jewish, genius, so what religion I have came from that, with some of my own search tossed in for good measure. mostly, i don't like organized religion because of exactly the type of garbage you just posted.

frankly, i don't care what anyone believes if they don't hurt anyone else and they don't interfere with *my* beliefs..

so it's more that i was pointing out that you're an idiot...

Well, I happen to agree with you about the concept of hell. Jesus never spoke of hell, but He did speak of separation from God, i.e. death. The Old Testament speaks of the very same thing with the story of Adam and Eve. So, you don't believe in an afterlife/eternal life then? Just blessings or curses while you're alive here?

And it has nothing to do with 'organized' religion, this concept is straight from the Bible. I was simply asking how your religion reconciles death versus eternal life?

Find out what Sheol is before you say you and Jillian agree.

There are an number of differing beliefs out there--many that contradicts christian worldview!!

 

[Newby]

what are you talking about? yes, there is a concept of death because death is inevitable. but there is NO concept of hell. nor do i believe you're going to hell for your beliefs (unlike what you said). my upbringing was jewish, genius, so what religion I have came from that, with some of my own search tossed in for good measure. mostly, i don't like organized religion because of exactly the type of garbage you just posted.

frankly, i don't care what anyone believes if they don't hurt anyone else and they don't interfere with *my* beliefs..

so it's more that i was pointing out that you're an idiot...

Well, I happen to agree with you about the concept of hell. Jesus never spoke of hell, but He did speak of separation from God, i.e. death. The Old Testament speaks of the very same thing with the story of Adam and Eve. So, you don't believe in an afterlife/eternal life then? Just blessings or curses while you're alive here?

And it has nothing to do with 'organized' religion, this concept is straight from the Bible. I was simply asking how your religion reconciles death versus eternal life?

Find out what Sheol is before you say you and Jillian agree.

There are an number of differing beliefs out there--many that contradicts christian worldview!!

Well, that's the problem, I'm not familiar with the differing Jewish beliefs, I'm only familiar with what I've read in the Old Testament. But, I will check it out. Thanks.

 

[Foxfyre]

From what I have been taught (and confirmed by a Jewish Rabbi I studied with for a time) is that the New Testament Sadducees did not believe in or at least did not teach of heaven and hell or an afterlife. The Pharisees did. But would not the Garden of Eden be a Jewish concept of heaven? And all the words for 'hell' found in the New Testament can also be found in the Old.

Awhile back I ran across this concise but detailed essay by Rabbi Or N. Rose, Associate Dean of the Rabbinical School of Hebrew College in Newton, MA, on the subject of Jewish concepts of heaven and hell. I bookmarked it to use for future reference as I think it is excellent:

Heaven and Hell in Jewish Tradition - My Jewish Learning

 

[Gadawg73]

I believe that he believes that the Bible is complete fiction, and he does not take anything that they say about Jesus as fact. That is where the disconnect is, the Bible clearly states Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi and preached in synagogues. I'm guessing he refutes that.

I believe what we have is one side stating that Jesus was the son of God and the other stating that is wrong all Jesus was was a great teacher.
Religous beliefs that are polar.
And I am caught in the middle stating what history was.

From what I was reading, the argument was whether or not Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi? If you believe the Bible to be factual, then you believe that he was both a Jewish Rabbi and the Son of God. CMike believes that he was neither.

I respect your beliefs and CMikes' beliefs.
History is different than beliefs and religion often attempts to make up their own history to fit their beliefs.

 

[Gadawg73]

From what I have been taught (and confirmed by a Jewish Rabbi I studied with for a time) is that the New Testament Sadducees did not believe in or at least did not teach of heaven and hell or an afterlife. The Pharisees did. But would not the Garden of Eden be a Jewish concept of heaven? And all the words for 'hell' found in the New Testament can also be found in the Old.

Awhile back I ran across this concise but detailed essay by Rabbi Or N. Rose, Associate Dean of the Rabbinical School of Hebrew College in Newton, MA, on the subject of Jewish concepts of heaven and hell. I bookmarked it to use for future reference as I think it is excellent:

Heaven and Hell in Jewish Tradition - My Jewish Learning

Great stuff. I have heard of him.

 

[Foxfyre]

A couple of additional thoughts: The Greek Hellenism introduced in all the areas previously conquered by Alexander made a profound difference and opened the door to new ways of understanding and presenting orthodoxy in all manner of thought and religion. I believe that is why Jesus was able to attract a following and why people were eager to hear his unorthodox concepts. So yes, there are references to people calling him Rabbi.

But in my understanding there were two definitions for "Rabbi" at that time:

rab·bi (rb)
n. pl. rab·bis
1. Abbr. R. A person trained in Jewish law, ritual, and tradition and ordained for leadership of a Jewish congregation, especially one serving as chief religious official of a synagogue.
2. A scholar qualified to interpret Jewish law.
(Online Free Dictionary)

Jesus would have been perceived as definition #2.

 

[jillian]

what are you talking about? yes, there is a concept of death because death is inevitable. but there is NO concept of hell. nor do i believe you're going to hell for your beliefs (unlike what you said). my upbringing was jewish, genius, so what religion I have came from that, with some of my own search tossed in for good measure. mostly, i don't like organized religion because of exactly the type of garbage you just posted.

frankly, i don't care what anyone believes if they don't hurt anyone else and they don't interfere with *my* beliefs..

so it's more that i was pointing out that you're an idiot...

Well, I happen to agree with you about the concept of hell. Jesus never spoke of hell, but He did speak of separation from God, i.e. death. The Old Testament speaks of the very same thing with the story of Adam and Eve. So, you don't believe in an afterlife/eternal life then? Just blessings or curses while you're alive here?

And it has nothing to do with 'organized' religion, this concept is straight from the Bible. I was simply asking how your religion reconciles death versus eternal life?

Find out what Sheol is before you say you and Jillian agree.

There are an number of differing beliefs out there--many that contradicts christian worldview!!

not really... sheol is more purgatory... not hell... and it has a time limit in our belief system. we don't believe the dead come back to life until the messiah comes.

 

[Newby]

Well, I happen to agree with you about the concept of hell. Jesus never spoke of hell, but He did speak of separation from God, i.e. death. The Old Testament speaks of the very same thing with the story of Adam and Eve. So, you don't believe in an afterlife/eternal life then? Just blessings or curses while you're alive here?

And it has nothing to do with 'organized' religion, this concept is straight from the Bible. I was simply asking how your religion reconciles death versus eternal life?

Find out what Sheol is before you say you and Jillian agree.

There are an number of differing beliefs out there--many that contradicts christian worldview!!

not really... sheol is more purgatory... not hell... and it has a time limit in our belief system. we don't believe the dead come back to life until the messiah comes.

And your following of the law now bears no determination on whether or not you 'come back to life' at that occurrence? Everyone does?

 

[Newby]

I believe what we have is one side stating that Jesus was the son of God and the other stating that is wrong all Jesus was was a great teacher.
Religous beliefs that are polar.
And I am caught in the middle stating what history was.

From what I was reading, the argument was whether or not Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi? If you believe the Bible to be factual, then you believe that he was both a Jewish Rabbi and the Son of God. CMike believes that he was neither.

I respect your beliefs and CMikes' beliefs.
History is different than beliefs and religion often attempts to make up their own history to fit their beliefs.

And what would be your source for facts about Jesus' life outside of the Bible? I was watching a show last night that was about the life of Pontius Pilate that was supposed to be based on historical 'fact', yet when the made statements regarding him they were making them as 'educated opinion' based on what they knew of Roman life and Roman customs at the time he lived. For instance, they stated that he probably ended up taking his own life at the end, but there is no factual proof that it happened that way. It's very difficult to separate absolute fact from 'educated supposition', and I find that many sources, whether they're television shows or books, rely heavily on that supposition to make their conclusions.

 

[JenT]

If Jesus was born in Jeruselem then he is Jewish right? But, in every church I have visited both Black and White he is not as the bible describes: woolly hair, brown skin. Instead he is a White man. Why is that?

Jesus is described with brown skin? I didn't know that, where is that?

I've seen descriptions of His hair whilte like wool, is that where you're getting that?

Isaiah said 2 He hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from Him; He was despised, and we esteemed Him not. (53)

I think we've been wrong to try to paint pictures of Him. Just my .02, oh, and it says something like that in the commandments...

 

[Foxfyre]

If Jesus was born in Jeruselem then he is Jewish right? But, in every church I have visited both Black and White he is not as the bible describes: woolly hair, brown skin. Instead he is a White man. Why is that?

No clue where you would get something that absurd. All Christian churches know Jesus was a Jew.

You don't get what I am asking. I know all churches know that Jesus is Hebrew. I was asking why he is always shown as a White Man in the portrait of him and not the Hebrew man that he was depicted in the bible. Can you answer that question?

But we did address that. In 'black' churches you will usually see Jesus depicted with dark skin. In Asian Christian churches he will usually be depicted as more Asian looking. Hispanics think of him as looking more like them. Maybe we have no life drawings of Jesus purely because he is Savior for all peoples everywhere and we can imagine him as looking any way we want.

 

[CMike]

There is heaven and and hell in judaism.

Unlike christianity, where you must believe in jesus to go to heaven Judaism has no such requirements. Once again, worshipping jesus, based on the Torah is the same as idol worship. G-D said clearly to trust and put your faith in no one but him.

To go to heaven non jews have 7 requirements. Those are the 7 laws given from G-D To Noach.



They are.

The Seven Noahide Laws

1. Idolatry is forbidden. Man is commanded to believe in the One G-d alone and worship only Him.
   
   [*]Incestuous and adulterous relations are forbidden. Human beings are not sexual objects, nor is pleasure the ultimate goal of life.
   
   [*]Murder is forbidden. The life of a human being, formed in G-d's image, is sacred.
   
   [*]Cursing the name of G-d is forbidden. Besides honoring and respecting G-d, we learn from this precept that our speech must be sanctified, as that is the distinctive sign which separated man from the animals.
   
   [*]Theft is forbidden. The world is not ours to do with as we please.
   
   [*]Eating the flesh of a living animal is forbidden. This teaches us to be sensitive to cruelty to animals. (This was commanded to Noah for the first time along with the permission of eating meat. The rest were already given to Adam in the Garden of Eden.)
   
   [*]Mankind is commanded to establish courts of justice and a just social order to enforce the first six laws and enact any other useful laws or customs.

 

[CMike]

There were two definitions of Rabbi before 70 AD.
A Torah teacher rabbi and a Rabbi with authority.

Please cite a notable Hebrew lexicography or similarly credible source that says as much.

Attempting to tell other people what their own religion teaches them is generally not a good idea.

I am not doing that.
I am quoting Hebrew history.
Show me where I am wrong.
If you do not know that s'mikah is authority in Hebrew then I can not teach you either.

You are not quoting anything.

Where is the link?

 

[CMike]

If you can't read don't blame me.
There were two definitions of Rabbi before 70 AD.
A Torah teacher rabbi and a Rabbi with authority.
He was a Rabbi. Not by today's orthodox standards but we are talking 2000 years ago.
According to Hebrew tradition for a sage/rabbi, NOT a Torah teacher, to have s'mikah authority to make new teachings to interpret existing scriptures, he had to be recognized as a prophet from God himself, or as Aaron and Moses had traditionally given this authority to 70 elders, they HAD TO be recognized as having that s'mikah-the authority as a Rabbi, by TWO OTHER RABBIS with s'mikah.
That is JEWISH LAW brother. I do not make it up. I just report historical facts. You may not like the facts, that is your problem with comprehension skills, not mine, but this is history, NOT my or anyone else's belief.

You are making it up. Once again, you are trying to tell a jew, who their leaders are. And you are doing it wrongly.

A rabbi is an ordained teacher of jewish law. Period.

You can also be a rabbi with authority such as sitting on a jewish court or whatever.

However, a rabbi has a clear definition, which I posted.

I am not making it up.
Where have I told a Jew who their leaders are?
Jesus was a Rabbi in the tradition of the hasidim and not the post 70 AD midrash rabbis of today.
Now we have BOTH Christians and Jews denying historical fact because it does not match their ideology.
No wonder folks run from religion these days.
The historical use of the word "orthodox" in referring to the Jewish religion is not analogous to it's modern use. Jesus would not have been allowed to preach in any of the communities or allowed to teach in the synagogues of the Galilee region if he were not a practicing orthodox practicing Jew of his time.

You answered your own question. Your question "Where have I told a Jew who their leaders are?". Your answer "Jesus was a Rabbi in the tradition of the hasidim and not the post 70 AD midrash rabbis of today."

He was allowed to preach to his followers who would be considered idol worshippers based on judaism.


Jesus said "nobody comes to the father except through me "

G-D said "Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other". (Isaiah, 45:22)

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life."

G-D said "...Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no god apart from Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but Me. (Isaiah, 45:21)

Christians pray in the name of jesus

G-D said "I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)
Christians believe that because jesus was caught and executed they no longer are accountable for their sins.

G-D said - "I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior." (Isaiah, 43:11)

The center of Christianity by definition is jesus

G-D said "Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

This is what the Lord says…"Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God." (Isaiah, 45:14)

What is unclear