Why is jesus not a jew in churches?

[CMike]

You are putting your fingers in your ears and going lalalalalalalalala

 

[Gadawg73]

Whose bible says so? Certainly not the jewish bible.

Someone who teaches that a jew can only reach G-D by going through him is not teaching judaism. In fact, he is teaching the furthest thing from judaism. It's called idol worship.

Once again, his followers may call him King of Israel , that doesn't mean he actually was a king of Israel or the jews. It's all in the mind of his followers.

So, you say this, yet at the same time you refute that the Jews had anything to do with his death? They had every reason to want Him gone exactly because of the discord and strife that he was causing by what he was preaching. You acknowledge that they had every motive, yet say they had nothing to do with his being crucified?

Yup. They had no power at the time.

There was no jewish court in session.

The romans were brutal dictators. They didn't ask for approval from the jews nor seek their input on decisions.

The city was full for Passover and no Jewish court had much of an authority over that amount of visiting pilgrims at that time anyway.
I agree with you about the Romans.
But the Romans were smart enough to know that the best way to have peace was to give some authority to the Jewish leaders but it was rubber stamped.
The Romans did run the show and they were brutal.

 

[Gadawg73]

There is zero evidence, however, that the Romans were concerned about Jesus. He wasn't violating any of their laws or encouraging anybody to do so. He wasn't stirring up the passions or inciting to riot. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all differ in some of the less important details of Jesus's hearing before Pilate, but all agree that Pilate was uninterested and/or reluctant to sentence Jesus to death and in fact found him guilty of nothing. But he had nothing to lose and risked a riot if he refused, so he gave the order to crucify Jesus.

Excellent as usual Fox. I agree, and I'd say it was a little of both, the Romans saw Jesus as causing unrest, and the Jews wanted Him gone, so they both were benefiting from his death.

Yes. There was incentive for Pilate to keep the Jews complacent and not stir up trouble.

But I think the evidence is pretty clear that had not the Jewish religious leaders demanded Jesus's death, the Romans would have had no interest in him.

Romans, like all occupiers, do not take kindly or listen to, much less act on any demands.
They and they only had the power to execute Jesus. They did so in their best interest first and foremost.

 

[CMike]

There is no reason to believe that the brutal roman occupiers would do anything that the Jews wanted.

 

[Foxfyre]

Excellent as usual Fox. I agree, and I'd say it was a little of both, the Romans saw Jesus as causing unrest, and the Jews wanted Him gone, so they both were benefiting from his death.

Yes. There was incentive for Pilate to keep the Jews complacent and not stir up trouble.

But I think the evidence is pretty clear that had not the Jewish religious leaders demanded Jesus's death, the Romans would have had no interest in him.

Romans, like all occupiers, do not take kindly or listen to, much less act on any demands.
They and they only had the power to execute Jesus. They did so in their best interest first and foremost.

The Romans were not so savage as some would like to think though. The Emperor was not a dictator with absolute authority but shared power with a senate that did not tolerate a concept of 'king'. The Empire had suffered various civil uprising among the racially and ethnically diverse peoples as well as being under almost continual assault from outside invaders. The governors were probably under orders to keep the peace as much as possible and not go looking for civil unrest. Again the Jews were a prosperous people and a lucrative source of tax money, and the local government would have strong incentive to keep them complacent and accommodating.

 

[Foxfyre]

Related to the OP and featuring artwork from around the world--I think all of these are beautiful:

Chinese Madonna and Baby Jesus

Chinese Jesus:

African Jesus:

Indian Jesus:

Native American Jesus:

Arab Jesus:

Japanese Mary and Jesus:

 

[Marc39]

Again the Jews were a prosperous people and a lucrative source of tax money, and the local government would have strong incentive to keep them complacent and accommodating.

Is that why the Jews revolted against the Romans for many years resulting in the Romans destroyng the Second Temple and murdering and expelling the Jewish community?

 

[ABikerSailor]

You are putting your fingers in your ears and going lalalalalalalalala

Yo............Cuntlips Tyke.............speaking of sticking your fingers in your ears and humming......

I notice you've still got me on ignore.

Doesn't change the facts that you've got yours wrong.

 

[CMike]

Yes. There was incentive for Pilate to keep the Jews complacent and not stir up trouble.

But I think the evidence is pretty clear that had not the Jewish religious leaders demanded Jesus's death, the Romans would have had no interest in him.

Romans, like all occupiers, do not take kindly or listen to, much less act on any demands.
They and they only had the power to execute Jesus. They did so in their best interest first and foremost.

The Romans were not so savage as some would like to think though. The Emperor was not a dictator with absolute authority but shared power with a senate that did not tolerate a concept of 'king'. The Empire had suffered various civil uprising among the racially and ethnically diverse peoples as well as being under almost continual assault from outside invaders. The governors were probably under orders to keep the peace as much as possible and not go looking for civil unrest. Again the Jews were a prosperous people and a lucrative source of tax money, and the local government would have strong incentive to keep them complacent and accommodating.

Good grief

A reality check. The romans hated the jews. Why? Because the didn't assimlate like the other conquered people.

The romans were brutal toward the jews, and they didn't care about their opinions or desires.

The ways they dealt with riots was by killing the people whom rioted. They didn't tolerate Berkely type riots They didn't have committees. They were vicious toward dissenters and people whom didn't comform to their culture and power.

Come on here. Reality!

Your god was killed solely by the romans whom considered him a threat because of his following.

Yanno...I wish you guys would make up your mind.

I thought he sacrificed himself for your sins? Yet he supposedly said "god why have you forsaken me?" If that is true, he was no sacrifice. He didn't want to be killed. He got caught and he was executed. He went kicking and screaming.

Believe it or not you are responsible for your own sins. Jesus being executing has nothing to do with your sins. It's up to you to get forgiveness from the person you sinned against and from G-D.

There are only 3 people/being responsible for you getting forgiveness for your sins.

1) Yourself

2) The person you sinned against

3) G-D

 

[Foxfyre]

Again the Jews were a prosperous people and a lucrative source of tax money, and the local government would have strong incentive to keep them complacent and accommodating.

Is that why the Jews revolted against the Romans for many years resulting in the Romans destroyng the Second Temple and murdering and expelling the Jewish community?

The Jews were not always entirely prudent in their activities and the Zealots got the upper edge around 70 A.D. and decided they were going to retake control of Jerusalem so they started a civil war. They were of course way out gunned and way under manned to do that and it sufficiently ticked off the Romans that they threw most of the Jews out of Jerusalem again and destroyed the Temple.

That was also a bad deal for the Christians who up until then had been seen as just another sect of the Jews and enjoyed pretty much the same privileges and protections. But when the orthodox Jews appealed to the Christian Jews to help them in their attack of the Romans, the Christian Jews refused. And resentment of that turned the existing tensions into a full scale rift so that never again would the two groups be associated with each other. And the Christians were then removed from the protected class and were fair game for a series of sadistic emperors who persecuted Christians in various places including Rome.

 

[CMike]

Again the Jews were a prosperous people and a lucrative source of tax money, and the local government would have strong incentive to keep them complacent and accommodating.

Is that why the Jews revolted against the Romans for many years resulting in the Romans destroyng the Second Temple and murdering and expelling the Jewish community?

The Jews were not always entirely prudent in their activities and the Zealots got the upper edge around 70 A.D. and decided they were going to retake control of Jerusalem so they started a civil war. They were of course way out gunned and way under manned to do that and it sufficiently ticked off the Romans that they threw most of the Jews out of Jerusalem again and destroyed the Temple.

That was also a bad deal for the Christians who up until then had been seen as just another sect of the Jews and enjoyed pretty much the same privileges and protections. But when the orthodox Jews appealed to the Christian Jews to help them in their attack of the Romans, the Christian Jews refused. And resentment of that turned the existing tensions into a full scale rift so that never again would the two groups be associated with each other. And the Christians were then removed from the protected class and were fair game for a series of sadistic emperors who persecuted Christians in various places including Rome.

You are nuts.

BTW there is no such thing as a christian jew, just like their is no such thing as an muslim christian.

 

[CMike]

Poor misunderstood roman oppressor conquerors against the unruly jews who revolted against the kind roman governorship over their lives

The spin is almost unfathomable.

It's almost like saying those kind loving misunderstood nazis, if only the jews weren't so unruly they wouldn't have been exterminated.

 

[Ravi]

I dunno, maybe it is me, but I see a lot of hostility from the rightwingloons on this thread toward Jews. And that is surprising since they pretend to be the champions of Israel.

 

[Foxfyre]

Again I'm not going to fight with you about it Cmike. I appreciate that you disagree.

But surely you know that Jew can mean a religion or it can mean a race. Those Jews who accepted Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah, as God, as their savior were absolutely Christian Jews.

I did not say the Jews were wrong to want their freedom. Nobody is wrong to want their freedom. I said they were imprudent in choosing to go for it against such overwhelming odds. One can be righteous, right, principled, and pure of heart and mind and still be imprudent.

I really am sorry that you are unable to discuss these things without such anger. It must be very difficult dealing with so much constant angst.

 

[Ropey]

Again the Jews were a prosperous people and a lucrative source of tax money, and the local government would have strong incentive to keep them complacent and accommodating.

Is that why the Jews revolted against the Romans for many years resulting in the Romans destroying the Second Temple and murdering and expelling the Jewish community?

If the Jews were revolting, then the Romans should have just stopped looking at them.

Consider the times Marc. Go back to times of the Canaanites and you will see a different attitude reigned. Genocide was the order of the day with all who were either conquering or defending. The roles reversed many times. They are all gone. Their languages are all destroyed.

The Romans were no different. If you followed their policies, then all was pretty good. But the policies became more restrictive.

The Jews revolted against the Roman decree regarding what they called 'self-mutilation' and which the Jews called circumcision.

It was an attempt to break the Jews hold on their belief and religious traditions. It didn't work. The Jews continue to hold their customs, languages, educational methods, medicine, etc. etc.

Empiric ebb and flow. The Jews have traveled through many of them. Still, we have our language and ways.

Rome did not expect such a fight from such a small group of people. When the fight began, there was no quarter given or expected.

Not like today. That was then, this is now.

 

[Toro]

lol

 

[Gadawg73]

Poor misunderstood roman oppressor conquerors against the unruly jews who revolted against the kind roman governorship over their lives

The spin is almost unfathomable.

It's almost like saying those kind loving misunderstood nazis, if only the jews weren't so unruly they wouldn't have been exterminated.

Mike, what religion were the first Christians from?
Jewish?
That is why some call them "Christian Jews".
Why freak out dude?
That is historical fact.
What other religion were the first Christians.?

 

[Marc39]

Again the Jews were a prosperous people and a lucrative source of tax money, and the local government would have strong incentive to keep them complacent and accommodating.

Is that why the Jews revolted against the Romans for many years resulting in the Romans destroying the Second Temple and murdering and expelling the Jewish community?

If the Jews were revolting, then the Romans should have just stopped looking at them.

Consider the times Marc. Go back to times of the Canaanites and you will see a different attitude reigned. Genocide was the order of the day with all who were either conquering or defending. The roles reversed many times. They are all gone. Their languages are all destroyed.

The Romans were no different.

The Romans oppressed the Jews who were the indigenous population in Judah, from which "Jewish" is derived. Their destruction of the Second Temple and of Jerusalem constituted the ethnic cleansing of the Jewish population.

You need be be informed on the subject matter. Trying to put a positive spin on the situation is embarrassing.

 

[CMike]

This is a christian source about the lovely Herod

Herod's Family

As he lay on his deathbed, Herod's thoughts may have turned to the rabbis and their students whom he recently had executed for tearing down the Roman eagle from the temple gate because it violated God's law against images. Perhaps he reflected on his beloved wife Miriamne's two sons whom he had drowned in the palace swimming pool next door. He could have remembered the execution of his favorite son, Antipater, only days ago for plotting against him?Antipater, the one who was to take his father's place. Or maybe he thought about the 45 members of the Sanhedrin whom he had murdered, the hundreds of family and staff whom he had suspected of plotting against him, or the thousands of subjects who died in his brutal campaign to claim a country they believed he had no right to rule. It is possible Herod also recalled?though only briefly?the massacre of a few boy babies in a town near his massive fortress Herodion, soon to be his tomb.

 

[CMike]

Again I'm not going to fight with you about it Cmike. I appreciate that you disagree.

But surely you know that Jew can mean a religion or it can mean a race. Those Jews who accepted Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah, as God, as their savior were absolutely Christian Jews.

I did not say the Jews were wrong to want their freedom. Nobody is wrong to want their freedom. I said they were imprudent in choosing to go for it against such overwhelming odds. One can be righteous, right, principled, and pure of heart and mind and still be imprudent.

I really am sorry that you are unable to discuss these things without such anger. It must be very difficult dealing with so much constant angst.

I'll answer Gadawg too in this post.

There is no such thing as being a christian jew. You have to pick your G-D. You either worship G-D or jesus, you can't worship both.

We learns this from Kings 1 18

21. And Elijah drew near to all the people and said, "Until when are you hopping between two ideas? If the Lord is God, go after Him, and if the Baal, go after him." And the people did not answer him a word.

You gotta big, you can't have both. You are either christian and worship jesus, or you are jewish, and worship only G-D. You can not have both.