why not just sit on your butt and pray?

[HUGGY]

lol....atheists hate it when they can't answer legitimate questions....

It is true that atheists hate it when they cannot find the answers to SOME questions.

Religists hate it when they cannot answer ANY questions..

do you have one I haven't answered?......

I'm not participating in this and other threads on this general subject matter to debate any one individual.

I do find posting answers to questions about proof of a god with quotations from the bible evasive. There have been no usefull answers forwarded by religists about the value of prayer without dragging in the nonsense from scripture or silly hearsay stories engrandising impossible to verify examples.

Religists insist on equating faith with fact. It is not. Biblical passages are not fact. Threats of eternal damnation are hollow reasons without reason.

You and many others expect credibility given because you have this book of magic or magical faith. You are sent out in the world to find value for a cow that gives real milk and can be butchered for real meat and bones and you come back with a bag of magical beans and a story of a giant in the clouds that can only be accessed from the fruits of your magical beans and wonder with a straight face how you and your story can possibly be doubted.

Amusing.

 

[peach174]

It is true that atheists hate it when they cannot find the answers to SOME questions.

Religists hate it when they cannot answer ANY questions..

do you have one I haven't answered?......

I'm not participating in this and other threads on this general subject matter to debate any one individual.

I do find posting answers to questions about proof of a god with quotations from the bible evasive. There have been no usefull answers forwarded by religists about the value of prayer without dragging in the nonsense from scripture or silly hearsay stories engrandising impossible to verify examples.

Religists insist on equating faith with fact. It is not. Biblical passages are not fact. Threats of eternal damnation are hollow reasons without reason.

You and many others expect credibility given because you have this book of magic or magical faith. You are sent out in the world to find value for a cow that gives real milk and can be butchered for real meat and bones and you come back with a bag of magical beans and a story of a giant in the clouds that can only be accessed from the fruits of your magical beans and wonder with a straight face how you and your story can possibly be doubted.

Amusing.

How about non religious people who use their opinions and say they are facts that God does not exist?
They also do not have any proof but they insist that there is no God.

 

[RandomVariable]

It is part of the fraud of some and by default of most religists that they jump to take ownership of medical cures and recoveries.

I find it especially onerous that the doctors involved in these circumstances don't come out strongly in denying the claims bragged about by these people.

They, the fundis, claim to do no harm..and the doctors are sworn to do no harm.

There IS harm when those that may need medical help choose to pray instead of getting timely medical intervention.

There is a HUGE difference between God intervening in a person's medical condition and a person deciding for God that He is going to do something for them just because they decided He should.

What a crock of steaming dog shit. There is no god to intervene in anything.

Interjecting some medical super fairy into a conversation about the health of anyone is just as bad or worse than a person pretending he or she is a physician and giving medical advice. What is really criminal is that there is no law against it. There should be and anyone giving medical advice that praying will help someone's health should be arrested and convicted and given the same punnishment as a quack.

No physician should be believe God is going to do his job for him. God would rather have the student physician hide his text book behind the Bible in church than hide the Bible behind his textbook in class. God will help those who strive strive higher. Asking for a little help along is OK but it is always a gift and never a due. Others will do harm in God's name but God is not with them. God will only do good. If there were an artist or a playwright with some unfinished work He really wants to see or maybe someone madly in love or some other reason known only to Him He might put his thumb on the scales. He will only put His thumb on the side of life.

 

[Vandalshandle]

God is not dead, but he had a terrible motorcycle accident, and has been in a coma since 1914.

 

[HUGGY]

do you have one I haven't answered?......

I'm not participating in this and other threads on this general subject matter to debate any one individual.

I do find posting answers to questions about proof of a god with quotations from the bible evasive. There have been no usefull answers forwarded by religists about the value of prayer without dragging in the nonsense from scripture or silly hearsay stories engrandising impossible to verify examples.

Religists insist on equating faith with fact. It is not. Biblical passages are not fact. Threats of eternal damnation are hollow reasons without reason.

You and many others expect credibility given because you have this book of magic or magical faith. You are sent out in the world to find value for a cow that gives real milk and can be butchered for real meat and bones and you come back with a bag of magical beans and a story of a giant in the clouds that can only be accessed from the fruits of your magical beans and wonder with a straight face how you and your story can possibly be doubted.

Amusing.

How about non religious people who use their opinions and say they are facts that God does not exist?
They also do not have any proof but they insist that there is no God.

A child like assertion.

Take the thousands of things that were once attributed to god and gods. Take them out of that collumn as proof of the existance of god and put them in the huge list of things that include those of which god has no domain.

Number one is the previous "fact" that the earth is the center of the universe. It took many hundreds of years for scholars to wrestle this truth from the liars and murderers.

Every truth and fact brought out into the light of day once popularly thought to be "given" by the grace of a god is a fact that no god had anything to do with it.

God is being proved every day to not be the giver of all things but in truth the giver of no things.

You all can put your fingers in your ears and hollar "Na..Na...Na..." all you want but the truth screams louder and louder.

In your silly bible it says that jesus can give sight to the blind... The truth is that when religion is finally completely pushed out of the path of vision men will see clearly for the first time.

 

[PostmodernProph]

It is true that atheists hate it when they cannot find the answers to SOME questions.

Religists hate it when they cannot answer ANY questions..

do you have one I haven't answered?......

I'm not participating in this and other threads on this general subject matter to debate any one individual.

I do find posting answers to questions about proof of a god with quotations from the bible evasive.

given that is hasn't happened here, should we care?.....

or silly hearsay stories

interesting....you're now the second person to accuse me of lying......care to explain what gives you that right?.......

 

[PostmodernProph]

God is not dead, but he had a terrible motorcycle accident, and has been in a coma since 1914.

"God is dead" -Nietzsche, 1878
"Nietzsche is dead" - God, 1900

 

[amrchaos]

that's obviously the answer to anything

If believers did that, how would the ministry gain money? That is why they can't just sit and pray!!

God does not write checks!!

Remember that!!

 

[amrchaos]

I'm not participating in this and other threads on this general subject matter to debate any one individual.

I do find posting answers to questions about proof of a god with quotations from the bible evasive. There have been no usefull answers forwarded by religists about the value of prayer without dragging in the nonsense from scripture or silly hearsay stories engrandising impossible to verify examples.

Religists insist on equating faith with fact. It is not. Biblical passages are not fact. Threats of eternal damnation are hollow reasons without reason.

You and many others expect credibility given because you have this book of magic or magical faith. You are sent out in the world to find value for a cow that gives real milk and can be butchered for real meat and bones and you come back with a bag of magical beans and a story of a giant in the clouds that can only be accessed from the fruits of your magical beans and wonder with a straight face how you and your story can possibly be doubted.

Amusing.

How about non religious people who use their opinions and say they are facts that God does not exist?
They also do not have any proof but they insist that there is no God.

A child like assertion.

Take the thousands of things that were once attributed to god and gods. Take them out of that collumn as proof of the existance of god and put them in the huge list of things that include those of which god has no domain.

Number one is the previous "fact" that the earth is the center of the universe. It took many hundreds of years for scholars to wrestle this truth from the liars and murderers.

Every truth and fact brought out into the light of day once popularly thought to be "given" by the grace of a god is a fact that no god had anything to do with it.

God is being proved every day to not be the giver of all things but in truth the giver of no things.

You all can put your fingers in your ears and hollar "Na..Na...Na..." all you want but the truth screams louder and louder.

In your silly bible it says that jesus can give sight to the blind... The truth is that when religion is finally completely pushed out of the path of vision men will see clearly for the first time.

Careful Huggy!!

You are talking about the claims of men, God has said nothing directly to us. That is, if there is a God.....

 

[HUGGY]

How about non religious people who use their opinions and say they are facts that God does not exist?
They also do not have any proof but they insist that there is no God.

A child like assertion.

Take the thousands of things that were once attributed to god and gods. Take them out of that collumn as proof of the existance of god and put them in the huge list of things that include those of which god has no domain.

Number one is the previous "fact" that the earth is the center of the universe. It took many hundreds of years for scholars to wrestle this truth from the liars and murderers.

Every truth and fact brought out into the light of day once popularly thought to be "given" by the grace of a god is a fact that no god had anything to do with it.

God is being proved every day to not be the giver of all things but in truth the giver of no things.

You all can put your fingers in your ears and hollar "Na..Na...Na..." all you want but the truth screams louder and louder.

In your silly bible it says that jesus can give sight to the blind... The truth is that when religion is finally completely pushed out of the path of vision men will see clearly for the first time.

Careful Huggy!!

You are talking about the claims of men, God has said nothing directly to us. That is, if there is a God.....

Seperating claims of men from gods can be difficult when these men have given nothing but faith and scripture as proof in these discussions.

Many if not most religists attribute all words in the bible to be verbatum from god and jesus.

They shake their talisman bag at you and mumble ju ju as if that and a blank religious stare is an answer from the gods to all questions.

It weighs not a millionth of a gram more that their nonsense is presented as something serious.

My personal fault is that I am constantly waiting for a punch line from this silliness and a loud laugh and a "we REALLY had you going with THAT one didn't we" !!! Ha...Ha...Ha..

 

[amrchaos]

A child like assertion.

Take the thousands of things that were once attributed to god and gods. Take them out of that collumn as proof of the existance of god and put them in the huge list of things that include those of which god has no domain.

Number one is the previous "fact" that the earth is the center of the universe. It took many hundreds of years for scholars to wrestle this truth from the liars and murderers.

Every truth and fact brought out into the light of day once popularly thought to be "given" by the grace of a god is a fact that no god had anything to do with it.

God is being proved every day to not be the giver of all things but in truth the giver of no things.

You all can put your fingers in your ears and hollar "Na..Na...Na..." all you want but the truth screams louder and louder.

In your silly bible it says that jesus can give sight to the blind... The truth is that when religion is finally completely pushed out of the path of vision men will see clearly for the first time.

Careful Huggy!!

You are talking about the claims of men, God has said nothing directly to us. That is, if there is a God.....

Seperating claims of men from gods can be difficult when these men have given nothing but faith and scripture as proof in these discussions.

Many if not most religists attribute all words in the bible to be verbatum from god and jesus.

They shake their talisman bag at you and mumble ju ju as if that and a blank religious stare is an answer from the gods to all questions.

It weighs not a millionth of a gram more that their nonsense is presented as something serious.

My personal fault is that I am constantly waiting for a punch line from this silliness and a loud laugh and a "we REALLY had you going with THAT one didn't we" !!! Ha...Ha...Ha..

You may be more cynical about them than I am!!

More incredulous, after hearing some of these fantastical stories, they have the nerve to ask "Why don't you believe?"


I guess somewhere between talking snakes and water changed to Wine, I forgot I was to take it as actual truth!

 

[Hollie]

so I give you what you ask for for Genesis 1-2, you completely ignore it (besides complaining that I did what you ask) and now you want me to do the rest of the chapters?.......

by the way, as for talking snakes, remember what I said about pericopes that begin the the Hebrew word translated as "now"?......

What animals other than the talking snake existed in the garden of fruit theft?

I haven't the slightest idea.....why?......

Instead of mindlessly cutting and pasting rote lists of bible verses, read them.

 

[PostmodernProph]

What animals other than the talking snake existed in the garden of fruit theft?

I haven't the slightest idea.....why?......

Instead of mindlessly cutting and pasting rote lists of bible verses, read them.

does the Bible list every animal that was in the garden?......I know the book of Job lists many that God says he created but I'm not aware of any verses that says its a complete list......oh wait.....you were just being a nasty bitch weren't you....fooled me for a minute......

 

[Hollie]

I haven't the slightest idea.....why?......

Instead of mindlessly cutting and pasting rote lists of bible verses, read them.

does the Bible list every animal that was in the garden?......I know the book of Job lists many that God says he created but I'm not aware of any verses that says its a complete list......oh wait.....you were just being a nasty bitch weren't you....fooled me for a minute......

You fundies do recoil when your gods and bibles are questioned for accuracy and consistency.

How strange that I'm a bitch for daring to question those things. What a shame that you feel so threatened by mere questioning as to the accuracy of the bibles.

Why a talking snake in the garden vs... Oh, I don't know, say a talking camel?

 

[RandomVariable]

Instead of mindlessly cutting and pasting rote lists of bible verses, read them.

does the Bible list every animal that was in the garden?......I know the book of Job lists many that God says he created but I'm not aware of any verses that says its a complete list......oh wait.....you were just being a nasty bitch weren't you....fooled me for a minute......

You fundies do recoil when your gods and bibles are questioned for accuracy and consistency.

How strange that I'm a bitch for daring to question those things. What a shame that you feel so threatened by mere questioning as to the accuracy of the bibles.

Why a talking snake in the garden vs... Oh, I don't know, say a talking camel?

If a person is not allowed to question the Bible than no one will ever explore the religion. Hollie is right to ask for explanations. If the answers don't convince her than she knows what is best for her.

 

[PostmodernProph]

You fundies do recoil when your gods and bibles are questioned for accuracy and consistency.

???.....if it doesn't mention them, how can you claim its inaccurate?...if you don't tell me where you live does that mean you're wrong about your address?.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

does the Bible list every animal that was in the garden?......I know the book of Job lists many that God says he created but I'm not aware of any verses that says its a complete list......oh wait.....you were just being a nasty bitch weren't you....fooled me for a minute......

You fundies do recoil when your gods and bibles are questioned for accuracy and consistency.

How strange that I'm a bitch for daring to question those things. What a shame that you feel so threatened by mere questioning as to the accuracy of the bibles.

Why a talking snake in the garden vs... Oh, I don't know, say a talking camel?

If a person is not allowed to question the Bible than no one will ever explore the religion. Hollie is right to ask for explanations. If the answers don't convince her than she knows what is best for her.

so she would be convinced that God was real if the Bible had a list of all the animals in the garden?......

 

[I.P.Freely]

I haven't the slightest idea.....why?......

Instead of mindlessly cutting and pasting rote lists of bible verses, read them.

does the Bible list every animal that was in the garden?......I know the book of Job lists many that God says he created but I'm not aware of any verses that says its a complete list......oh wait.....you were just being a nasty bitch weren't you....fooled me for a minute......

spoken like a true christian.

 

[Hollie]

does the Bible list every animal that was in the garden?......I know the book of Job lists many that God says he created but I'm not aware of any verses that says its a complete list......oh wait.....you were just being a nasty bitch weren't you....fooled me for a minute......

You fundies do recoil when your gods and bibles are questioned for accuracy and consistency.

How strange that I'm a bitch for daring to question those things. What a shame that you feel so threatened by mere questioning as to the accuracy of the bibles.

Why a talking snake in the garden vs... Oh, I don't know, say a talking camel?

If a person is not allowed to question the Bible than no one will ever explore the religion. Hollie is right to ask for explanations. If the answers don't convince her than she knows what is best for her.

Thanks, RandomVariable. At least for me, you've highlighted the most basic and profound element separating faith and science. Faith cannot be used as a tool to access knowledge because it does not require the standards of evidence required by science.. Faith-based assertions carry validity (sic) not because there is any criteria to support the belief structure, but because a group of people deem it so, and by definition, faith asks that one does not question validity. If one is questioning their faith, it is considered that they are also losing their faith, not strengthening it.

I've been pressing the self-entitled prophet on biblical genesis to test his knowledge on the matter. He has none. He has simply accepted the tale, ignored the irreconciable errors and contradictions and proceeds on as if those errors and contradictions don't exist.



Well, let's look at the source material, why don't we (KJV):

_____________________________________
Genesis 2
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

________________________________________
Commentary: God has created the plants (which would include trees) and then creates man. Then he plants the garden and places man there. We on the same page so far?





Let's continue.

________________________________________
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

________________________________________
Commentary: Very clearly here we can see that evil already exists else it cannot be a tree of knowledge of good and evil. Man at this point in the narrative has nothing to do with, nor any knowledge of either good or evil. Hence evil must predate Man in order for there to be a choice.





Moving on:

________________________________________
Genesis 3
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

________________________________________






Now we have two questions:

1. Does this serpent lie, deceive, and tempt ("yes" to all three)-- and are any of these behaviors sinful? To answer this, apply them to the model of perfection, God. Can this God...

Lie? No, it would be sinful of God to lie and God by definition is sinless.

Deceive? No, it would be sinful of God to decieve and God by definition is sinless.

Tempt? Well, perhaps towards good, but the context here is towards disobedience and thus would be sinful, and of course it would be sinful of God to tempt and God by definition is sinless.

So we can agree that the behaviors of the serpent are pretty much sinful and none of them could be applied to the perfection of God within the narrative.



Onto our second question:

Exactly who (or what) is this serpent? It can only be one of three things:

A. An actual flesh and blood serpent
B. Satan
C. God

If it is A., and if it sins (and it does) then sin has been introduced into the world by a flesh and blood creation of god, and man has not brought it into the world.

If it is B. and if Satan sins, then once again evil has been brought into the world by an agent other than Man (although not of flesh and blood)

If it is C. (and actually, as the Author of Everything then Everything is ultimately of God) then we have a very deep problem, and a nature that totally self-destructs as God is both perfect and imperfect at the same time (this is the core "proof" of God not existing that leads to an atheistic conclusion-- for all those endless demands that atheists prove that a nothing doesn't not exist, it is only this-- that God is a senseless mass of contradictary nonsense that can establish any sort of "prrof". A senseless mass of contradictory nonsense is indistinguishable from "nothingness"). For arguments sake, let's not head down C at all since in question 1 we have eliminated God being able to sin.



Now, left with choice A or B: I have heard the argument (and it's not a bad one actually): "Well, nowhere does it say God told the serpent he couldn't be evil and it was the disobedience that is the sin, not the act of evil."

To this I would point out that if sin (disobedience) is not evil, then it must be good, and if it is good, it cannot be an act of disobedience, and once again we're in a feedback loop.



But let's even concede this point and see where it leads:

What we are left with is this: Evil is of God -- no way around that hence, God is all good and all evil at the same time and is completely self-contradictory. Sin is the failure of the test -- but if sin is evil, and man was kept from knowing what good and evil are (only the tree could supply that knowledge and it, "the tree", was told not to indulge), then he is precluded from being able to pass the test. God must know this, and God, being omniscient, must know which way Man would choose. Hence, free will is an illusion.

Hence, things are the way they are because God wants them precisely this way, and any claim that God didn't set out to create Satan on purpose is disproved. And this includes a nasty and capricious nature which will kill people via floods and tornadoes and fires and earthquakes etc., none of which are essential to a world created by a God. He could have just as easily made it otherwise, he just didn't.

 

[Newby]

does the Bible list every animal that was in the garden?......I know the book of Job lists many that God says he created but I'm not aware of any verses that says its a complete list......oh wait.....you were just being a nasty bitch weren't you....fooled me for a minute......

You fundies do recoil when your gods and bibles are questioned for accuracy and consistency.

How strange that I'm a bitch for daring to question those things. What a shame that you feel so threatened by mere questioning as to the accuracy of the bibles.

Why a talking snake in the garden vs... Oh, I don't know, say a talking camel?

If a person is not allowed to question the Bible than no one will ever explore the religion. Hollie is right to ask for explanations. If the answers don't convince her than she knows what is best for her.

If Hollie were even remotely sincere in her questions, you might have a point. Prof is more on target that her goal is to just be a nasty bitch, and she does it quite well.