why not just sit on your butt and pray?

[PostmodernProph]

Why is everyone so sure someone did it. Oh ye of little faith.

You're implying that God miraculously helped Hollie out by adding text to Peach's post that Peach herself never placed there, so that it would help Hollie's basing of Him and those who have faith in Him? Okay... whatever floats your boat...

And if He did? Whose right?

well, I think we can take it for granted that Hollie did not ask him to, so it does not establish that he responded to prayer.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

Firstly, and as noted earlier in the thread, the story of the cancer survivor is a one that floats around the religious community.

if that particular story has been "floated" around the religious community, it would have had to have come from one of the other thirty or so people that were in the room with me when it occurred......if that is the case I applaud them for communicating it......if however, this is just your way of accusing me of lying, you are wrong....

 

[PostmodernProph]

It was for PostmodernProph. Him and all the others who were witnesses that day. It was a gift to them.

actually, it goes beyond that......part of the prayer was that we asked for this because we wanted to be able to tell everyone of his glory.....and so here, once again, I have been able to do that.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

It's not really all that interesting. It's just that what you copied and pasted is boilerplate creationist drivel.

I'm surprised you're still making an issue of this when your post (#123), was simply a cut and paste (unattributed), from Contender Ministries.

THE PROBLEMS WITH CARBON-14 DATING

I really hoped not to make an issue of your unattributed cut and paste but the more excitable of the fundies have decided to spew their own ignorance by commenting on what they re clueless about.

What issue?
If I had really have wanted to make it one, you would have known about it.

I admitted to my mistake of forgetting to put the link up my bad

I was trying to do the good Christian thing by teaching the two peanut gallery members that hurling charges they can't defend is the inverse of the good Christian thing'y.

so, did it come as a surprise to you, then, that we WERE able to defend the charges?.....

 

[Hollie]

What issue?
If I had really have wanted to make it one, you would have known about it.

I admitted to my mistake of forgetting to put the link up my bad

I was trying to do the good Christian thing by teaching the two peanut gallery members that hurling charges they can't defend is the inverse of the good Christian thing'y.

so, did it come as a surprise to you, then, that we WERE able to defend the charges?.....

You defended nothing. You were wrong.


"Bearing false witness". What a shame you're not upholding those good Christian values.

 

[Hollie]

You're implying that God miraculously helped Hollie out by adding text to Peach's post that Peach herself never placed there, so that it would help Hollie's basing of Him and those who have faith in Him? Okay... whatever floats your boat...

And if He did? Whose right?

well, I think we can take it for granted that Hollie did not ask him to, so it does not establish that he responded to prayer.....

Well, we can take it for granted that you're rather angry and self-doubting.

Why would I ask anything of your gods as opposed to other gods?

 

[Hollie]

everything I have said can be independently confirmed.....
here, knock yourself out....
Greek and Hebrew Interlinear Bible and Concordance

That confirms only that can cut and paste.

Are you hoping to prove the bibles are true by cutting and pasting from the bibles?

/shrugs....I cut and paste a tool that permits even those who have not studied Hebrew can confirm independently, what I stated.....you don't need to take my word for it or anyone else's word for it.....go look at the verb form for Genesis 1......go look at the beginning word from Genesis 1:2.....

You cut and paste material, from material, you hope to use to prove the material is right?

That's hilarious.

 

[Hollie]

Firstly, and as noted earlier in the thread, the story of the cancer survivor is a one that floats around the religious community.

if that particular story has been "floated" around the religious community, it would have had to have come from one of the other thirty or so people that were in the room with me when it occurred......if that is the case I applaud them for communicating it......if however, this is just your way of accusing me of lying, you are wrong....

That's a lovely story but I have no reason to believe it.

You seem to have difficulties confronting objective reality so I have no way of knowing if your story is true or not.

I just need to "believe", right?

 

[The Irish Ram]

Hollie girl, Did you realize your Dad's love for you when you were too young to reason, or did you wait till you were old enough to reason to realize his love for you? You actually have two Father's that love you, and neither of them sounds like they would give you stones. You are loved by both.

Signs were for a time. They were used to show the people during Christ's time and shortly after, that out of all of the gods they worshiped, one God had the power to deliver.

John 4:48
"Unless you people see signs and wonders," Jesus told him, "you will never believe."

God is not Santa. His worth cannot be determined by how many of our wishes He grants. How arrogant of us to base His existence on what He does or doesn't do according to our whims.

Christ raised Lazarus from the grave but not John the Baptist. He did things according to the will of the Father. Us ignoring the will of the Father, and instead insisting that He do things according to our will leads us to feel let down when He doesn't hop to it.

We look at death as loss. God looks at it as gain. So what we actually say to God is, "Please leave this person down here on this garbage heap instead of taking them to a paradise free of pain, sorrow, tears. Please don't give them health and youth and joy. Leave them here, with us."
God's ways, His thoughts are far above ours. Yet we insist that He function on our level or else He must not exist, or He's indifferent, or He's deaf.

So, It is not that He doesn't answer prayer. Sometimes, the answer is, "No".

Did your wonderful Dad ever tell you no, because he knew better than you what was in your best interest? Mine did on a daily basis. And as I look back, maybe a 14 yr old really didn't have any business going to a drug infused Woodstock, even though I reasoned it would be a great experience for a kid my age.
God is faithful to answer prayer. Even though it may not always be the answer we want to hear. It doesn't mean you are being ignored, it just means He knows better than His children what is in their best interest.

And God did not kill His son. For the 100th time, God did not kill His son:

John 10:18
I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. ... "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative.

If you were about to be shot to death, and I stepped in front of you and took the bullet that was meant for you, did I lay down my own life to save yours, or did someone else force me to die in your place?

Christ took our bullet out of sheer love, not obligation, and not through force.

 

[peach174]

Why is everyone so sure someone did it. Oh ye of little faith.

You're implying that God miraculously helped Hollie out by adding text to Peach's post that Peach herself never placed there, so that it would help Hollie's basing of Him and those who have faith in Him? Okay... whatever floats your boat...

Scroll back to post #123.

Scroll down to paragraph #9

Read paragraph #9

Read paragraph #9 again.


Scroll to post #131

Read post #131


Nothing was added.

Yeah, I know, you feel like a fool for commenting on what you know nothing of.

My apologies Hollie.
You did not add anything but you did take out everything else and zeroed in on that particular paragraph where they believe the Earth is only 50,000 old.
Then thought that is also my believe and it isn't.

I was reading the paragraph down from that and did not catch it.

Just because I don't believe that the Earth is that young and they do, doesn't make their interpretations any more right or wrong. There is some pretty good augments for it, when you look into it.
I believe that all religions have some things wrong, but I also think it's wrong to put them down or belittle them for each ones belief.
Just like some people believe that carbon 14 dating can be faulty.

It is still a belief one way or another.
You have just as much of a right to not believe in the flood as other's who do.
I don't think that either belief should be put down and belittled.
Everyone has the right to their belief's or non belief's.
Our differences in opinions and belief's are what make the World an interesting place.
It only becomes bad when mankind kills others over it.

 

[Hollie]

You're implying that God miraculously helped Hollie out by adding text to Peach's post that Peach herself never placed there, so that it would help Hollie's basing of Him and those who have faith in Him? Okay... whatever floats your boat...

Scroll back to post #123.

Scroll down to paragraph #9

Read paragraph #9

Read paragraph #9 again.


Scroll to post #131

Read post #131


Nothing was added.

Yeah, I know, you feel like a fool for commenting on what you know nothing of.

My apologies Hollie.
You did not add anything but you did take out everything else and zeroed in on that particular paragraph where they believe the Earth is only 50,000 old.
Then thought that is also my believe and it isn't.

I was reading the paragraph down from that and did not catch it.

Just because I don't believe that the Earth is that young and they do, doesn't make their interpretations any more right or wrong. There is some pretty good augments for it, when you look into it.
I believe that all religions have some things wrong, but I also think it's wrong to put them down or belittle them for each ones belief.
Just like some people believe that carbon 14 dating can be faulty.

It is still a belief one way or another.
You have just as much of a right to not believe in the flood as other's who do.
I don't think that either belief should be put down and belittled.
Everyone has the right to their belief's or non belief's.
Our differences in opinions and belief's are what make the World an interesting place.
It only becomes bad when mankind kills others over it.

Thanks, Peach174. I hope you will accept my apology for things getting heated which I contributed to.

We may disagree on a lot of things but I hope to do better at expressing myself without letting emotion get in the way.

Best regards.

 

[RandomVariable]

No religion and no spiritual affiliation.

Strong agnostic.

My wonderful Dad, a Protestant, exposed me to religion early but never pushed belief.

Do you believe God can perform acts in this world? so to speak. Do you believe he does? Do you believe you have ever witnessed such an act?

No, to your questions.

What I'm addressing are the analogous worldviews with the empirical reality we all reside in within this existence. The theistic one purposely purports a supernatural one, an existence where events counter logic and reason, something we do not see extant in any meaningful way.

What some call "faith" I call empirical "trust". I build no dogma of supernatural beings and heaven's and hells, and fallen angels and miracles-- I simply see natural events as natural events with no need for god(s). If the theories and laws asserted show themselves to not hold true, they get discarded in favor of that which does.

I call what you have as faith. You have not reached the point of belief. At least not as I define it. Yes, there are laws of the universe which are mathematically and empirically based. To throw out or not seek more knowledge because of a belief in God is wrong. We are here to play the game of discovery for as we learn our understanding of Him expands. To move from faith to belief you could try asking a little question each time something which might be explained by God's intervention happens. "What if? What if God just winked? What if PostmodernProph's story happened as PostmodernProph believes it did?" The more you try this the more God will be revealed to you. You ask why there is so much pain and injustice in the world if there is a God as the Book describes Him? We do not know such things but the more you, and we, know of God the greater His ability will be to not only answer your prayers but the prayers of others. For all of us I wish you well.

 

[peach174]

Scroll back to post #123.

Scroll down to paragraph #9

Read paragraph #9

Read paragraph #9 again.


Scroll to post #131

Read post #131


Nothing was added.

Yeah, I know, you feel like a fool for commenting on what you know nothing of.

My apologies Hollie.
You did not add anything but you did take out everything else and zeroed in on that particular paragraph where they believe the Earth is only 50,000 old.
Then thought that is also my believe and it isn't.

I was reading the paragraph down from that and did not catch it.

Just because I don't believe that the Earth is that young and they do, doesn't make their interpretations any more right or wrong. There is some pretty good augments for it, when you look into it.
I believe that all religions have some things wrong, but I also think it's wrong to put them down or belittle them for each ones belief.
Just like some people believe that carbon 14 dating can be faulty.

It is still a belief one way or another.
You have just as much of a right to not believe in the flood as other's who do.
I don't think that either belief should be put down and belittled.
Everyone has the right to their belief's or non belief's.
Our differences in opinions and belief's are what make the World an interesting place.
It only becomes bad when mankind kills others over it.

Thanks, Peach174. I hope you will accept my apology for things getting heated which I contributed to.

We may disagree on a lot of things but I hope to do better at expressing myself without letting emotion get in the way.

Best regards.

Apology accepted.
I did the same thing also.

 

[guno]

"Answers to prayer should be the norm for Christians. Didn't Jesus say "Ask and it shall be given you" (Mt.7:7)? Based on Jesus's words answers to prayer should be automatic. Yet, a recent e-mail prayer request was marked "urgent" because so many Christians are experiencing such extreme difficulties. The prayer request described Christians as experiencing pain, self-doubt, exhaustion, impatience, weakness, spiritual stagnation, fear, unrelenting bondage to sin and the ever-present demonic forces. During my years in the ministry back in the 1970s and 80s these same concerns needing prayer were just as prevalent, and they still continue today.

Is prayer the panacea? If the solution could be solved by prayer Christians would have resolved these problems long ago. No, the difficulties will persist as long as there are Christians. Why? These afflictions continue because the Christian thought-processes reject objective, rational, critical thinking. Since these thought-processes are done independent of God or the Bible, they are considered to be ungodly. The Bible teaches Christians to avoid objective, rational, critical thinking, for this would be leaning on their own understanding (Prov. 3:5). It would be utilizing the wisdom of the wise, the understanding of the prudent (I Cor.1:19), the wisdom of this world which is foolishness with God (I Cor.3:19). It might cause them to question their religion. This dilemma for many otherwise intelligent capable Christians is the crux of the problem.

In contrast to objective rational thought, Christian thinking is centered in a Bible-oriented faith which extends far beyond simple optimistic everyday faith. Biblical faith believes the proclamations of only the Bible and strongly rejects other ways of thinking. A healthy, productive psyche is found in something fervent Christians are "not allowed" to do. The 2nd century church father Tertullian wrote that the personal pursuit of truth and understanding is in itself an indication of heresy. Thus, it is heretical to consider that the earth's age might exceed 6,000 years, in spite of the geologic scientific record, lest one compromise the Bible's genealogy of Jesus to Adam. It is heretical to challenge the Noah flood story regardless of the extraordinary improbability of Noah's ability to gather, feed, and keep alive two of every fowl, cattle, and creeping thing of the earth on a one-window boat for 10' months, and in spite of the archeological record of neighboring cultures which contradicts the occurrence of a worldwide flood. Certainly it would be heretical to question the teachings and deeds of Jesus even though the earliest copies of copies of copies of manuscripts date from 300 years after his alleged life, and even though the reputable Jewish philosopher and historian Philo of Alexandria, who was contemporaneous with Jesus, never so much as mentioned the existence of a Jesus of Nazareth or the alleged miracles in and surrounding his life.

Faith as defined by the Bible requires the suspension of basic human thought-processes which are necessary for the functioning of a healthy mind. For example, in order to be a candidate for becoming a Christian each person must accept that they are sinners. Why? The historical facts as recorded in the Bible state that some 6,000 years ago a person named Eve, who, after being made from Adam's rib while he slept, was spurred on by a talking snake to seduce Adam into the sin of eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. All objective, rational, critical thought must be suspended to believe this story. But, once this story is accepted (swallowed), the process of naive, exploitable, child-like faith and cognitive dissonance become the standard operating procedure.

In fact, biblical Christianity undermines a person's ability to think by using self-deprecation as the hammer to convince people of their depraved, sinful state. The acclaimed Protestant theologian John Calvin declared "We are nothing but mud and filth both inside and outside." The Roman Catholic Ignatius of Loyola stated, "We are mere dung." Once people are persuaded of their degenerate sinful state they are then continually warned of their carnal natures lest they backslide into thinking for themselves. Instead of empowering people, Christianity in fact weakens people's ability to think, thus accentuating self-doubt, fear, exhaustion, helplessness, as well as all the other conditions expressed in the prayer request.

Biblical faith's substance is not only of things "hoped for" but depends on the evidence of things "not seen" (Heb. 11:1). This faith rejects reason, critical thinking, or contrary evidence. It effectively shuts the door to any inquiry or consideration that a healthy, productive mind would deem important. In practical terms, what are the implications of Biblical faith-based reasoning? Can anybody name a vocation in which success corresponds to things "hoped for" and whose validity is based on things "not seen"? How many brain surgeons succeed at removing tumors with hands guided by things "hoped for"? How many architects draw high-rise building plans based on engineering laws "not seen"? How about a lawyer prosecuting a case or a journalist writing a story based on "the evidence of things not seen"? In practical terms, Christian faith-based reasoning is in fact an oxymoron.

In contrast, objective rational thought put forward by the likes of Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Darwin, Paine, and, other reputable scientists and academics has catapulted us forward to advances in science, the arts, democracy in government, and human rights barely if ever imagined in religious history. Religious, faith-based thinking has resisted these advances at every turn. Its devotees both Roman Catholic and Protestant impose Bible doctrine at every opportunity in opposition to these advances. The issues have been and in some cases continue to be as wide-ranging as the earth's age, a heliocentric universe, hygienic precautions in disease control, women's use of anaesthesia in childbirth, loaning money at interest, ventilation of carbonic gases in mines to prevent asphyxiation, emancipation from slavery, women's equality, and evolutionary science. A complete list could easily fill this page.

Every advance can be directly attributed to what the Bible calls worldly, foolish, unspiritual, earthly ways of thinking. These advances, many of which came in spite of persecution from Christians, developed because various individuals had the courage to apply objective, rational, critical reasoning to the problems of their day. Astoundingly, Christians today don't think twice about partaking in the benefits of these advances. Some present-day Christians are even so brazen as to suggest that these formerly considered anti-Biblical advances are available because God allowed it.

So what are the results of Biblical faith-based thinking? Christian will continue to struggle as long as their faith requires them to violate the very foundations of that which provides health and well being to the human psyche. Nevertheless Christianity will continue to vehemently oppose even the thought that one could survive apart from its support and control. Christianity with its longstanding weapon of maligning its detractors creates peer pressure from which few are willing or able to consider the contradictions and inconsistencies. When people do begin to think for themselves, that is the consummate "Answer To Prayer!"

Skeptic Ring

 

[PostmodernProph]

Firstly, and as noted earlier in the thread, the story of the cancer survivor is a one that floats around the religious community.

if that particular story has been "floated" around the religious community, it would have had to have come from one of the other thirty or so people that were in the room with me when it occurred......if that is the case I applaud them for communicating it......if however, this is just your way of accusing me of lying, you are wrong....

That's a lovely story but I have no reason to believe it.

I didn't post it to give you a reason to believe....I recognize an impossible task when I see one.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

That confirms only that can cut and paste.

Are you hoping to prove the bibles are true by cutting and pasting from the bibles?

/shrugs....I cut and paste a tool that permits even those who have not studied Hebrew can confirm independently, what I stated.....you don't need to take my word for it or anyone else's word for it.....go look at the verb form for Genesis 1......go look at the beginning word from Genesis 1:2.....

You cut and paste material, from material, you hope to use to prove the material is right?

That's hilarious.

no...I cut and pasted a link to a tool.....which enabled you to get the independent confirmation you said you wanted......if you don't wish to use that tool is fine with me.....just don't pretend what I stated can't be independently confirmed.....

 

[PostmodernProph]

I was trying to do the good Christian thing by teaching the two peanut gallery members that hurling charges they can't defend is the inverse of the good Christian thing'y.

so, did it come as a surprise to you, then, that we WERE able to defend the charges?.....

You defended nothing. You were wrong.


"Bearing false witness". What a shame you're not upholding those good Christian values.

and what did I say that was false....

 

[Hollie]

so, did it come as a surprise to you, then, that we WERE able to defend the charges?.....

You defended nothing. You were wrong.


"Bearing false witness". What a shame you're not upholding those good Christian values.

and what did I say that was false....

Some falsehood about charges. What charges? The ones "we WERE able to defend". It's just that you were not able to defend your invented "charges".

You completely lose track of what you post from one sentence to the next.

 

[Hollie]

/shrugs....I cut and paste a tool that permits even those who have not studied Hebrew can confirm independently, what I stated.....you don't need to take my word for it or anyone else's word for it.....go look at the verb form for Genesis 1......go look at the beginning word from Genesis 1:2.....

You cut and paste material, from material, you hope to use to prove the material is right?

That's hilarious.

no...I cut and pasted a link to a tool.....which enabled you to get the independent confirmation you said you wanted......if you don't wish to use that tool is fine with me.....just don't pretend what I stated can't be independently confirmed.....

You're making up this nonsense as you go along.

What is confirmed when cutting and pasting bible verses is used in a silly attempt to prove the bibles are true?

 

[Hollie]

if that particular story has been "floated" around the religious community, it would have had to have come from one of the other thirty or so people that were in the room with me when it occurred......if that is the case I applaud them for communicating it......if however, this is just your way of accusing me of lying, you are wrong....

That's a lovely story but I have no reason to believe it.

I didn't post it to give you a reason to believe....I recognize an impossible task when I see one.....

Do you have some odd notion that anyone is obligated to accept your stories of magical cures for disease. You have a history of being unreliable when it comes to making assessments of the rational world.