Why should a hamburger flipper make the same as a highly skilled worker???

[Marxist]

Just how easy is it for someone to simply "walk off the street" and fill your position? How vulnerable and replaceable are you? How much skills and knowledge have you obtained to be able to effectively perform at your job? Are you willing to work late, way past your convenient 8 hour shift, if deadlines and necessity of your job requires it?

These are the questions that need to dictate the potential of how much you earn. Simply demanding a greater salary or paycheck out of "jealousy" over what someone else earns, just shows how much effort and education some people are willing to invest to advance themselves towards a better way of life.

Your pay scale should be relative to the value of the work you do. How much can your employer sell your work for versus the total cost of production, including your labor? If you make hamburgers which sell for an average of $3.00 each, and you can make 100 burgers in an hour, the value of your work is $300.00 per hour. There are other costs associated with the production of the burgers, such as the cost of the ingredients and packaging, lease payments for the buildings, equipment costs, advertising and promotion, etc. If you are paid minimum wage, you are paid 7 cents for each burger you make. If your wages were to increase to $10.00 per hour, you would be receiving 10 cents for each burger you make.

It shouldn't matter how many others people would be willing to do your job for less, or the skill level required to do the work, what should matter is the value of your work. When you produce a product for sale, such as making burgers, it's relatively easy to calculate the value of your work. What we have seen is that while the retail price of the burgers has risen, as have all of the other costs associated with their production and sale have risen, the wages of the people making the burgers has not. Management pay has risen, and executive pay has skyrocketed, although management and executives aren't being more massively more productive than in the past, but the frontline workers who make the products sold, have not. It's not jealousy or envy for workers to ask that their wages go up as well.

I love you. It's why I cannot stand capitalism, laborers do not receive what they are worth, but that's another thing entirely.

Actually, they do receive pretty close to what they are worth. That's why so many people hate capitalism. Their labor simply isn't worth much.

What they are worth as defined by greedy capitalists.

Nope. The consumers decide what they are worth. If consumers were willing to pay $100 for a hamburger, then burgerflippers would make $100/hr. Since consumers are only willing to pay $4.00, buger flippers only earn $7.25 hr.

Heart surgeons make $250,000/yr or more because consumers are willing to pay a lot to a person who will keep them alive.

The amount of stupidity in this post hurts me.

 

[Asclepias]

Thats not a valid argument. I understand what things should be like but thats not how it works. Some people simply are more valuable than others when it comes to producing income and value for their employers. Basically what you are saying is that it should always be perfect weather but thats not how it works out in reality.

Under capitalism, the laborer cannot receive what he is worth, and usually way less.

Thats true. The laborer has options like upgrading his/her skills or leaving to find someone that will pay what he/she is worth.

The problem is, the capitalist cannot afford to pay the labor what he is actually worth, ever heard of surplus value? The idea of people just needing to get skilled doesn't really hold for me, people will always have to fill the jobs that require hard labor, fast food jobs, grocery jobs. Society demands that they exist, and people will work them.

Yes they can afford to pay but the laborer sets the market. If laborers stopped accepting shit wages capitalists would have no choice but to pay what the labor market demands. They would then pass on the cost to the consumer in order to maintain their profit margin. Until workers and consumers come together they will always make other people wealthy.

I agree they need to come together, but they're always demonized and ridicules if they try to.

Demonized?

 

[Marxist]

Under capitalism, the laborer cannot receive what he is worth, and usually way less.

Thats true. The laborer has options like upgrading his/her skills or leaving to find someone that will pay what he/she is worth.

The problem is, the capitalist cannot afford to pay the labor what he is actually worth, ever heard of surplus value? The idea of people just needing to get skilled doesn't really hold for me, people will always have to fill the jobs that require hard labor, fast food jobs, grocery jobs. Society demands that they exist, and people will work them.

Yes they can afford to pay but the laborer sets the market. If laborers stopped accepting shit wages capitalists would have no choice but to pay what the labor market demands. They would then pass on the cost to the consumer in order to maintain their profit margin. Until workers and consumers come together they will always make other people wealthy.

I agree they need to come together, but they're always demonized and ridicules if they try to.

Demonized?

Look at how the fight for 15 movement is being treated..

 

[boilermaker55]

The history of the labor movement in this country, USA, shows how any and all companies can and will take advantage of any worker. Even if they band together and form a Union. However, the best option for all workers is to form band and form a Union to combat the Union of CEO"s from large multi-corporations. They band together to help their profit margin.

Thats not a valid argument. I understand what things should be like but thats not how it works. Some people simply are more valuable than others when it comes to producing income and value for their employers. Basically what you are saying is that it should always be perfect weather but thats not how it works out in reality.

Under capitalism, the laborer cannot receive what he is worth, and usually way less.

Thats true. The laborer has options like upgrading his/her skills or leaving to find someone that will pay what he/she is worth.

The problem is, the capitalist cannot afford to pay the labor what he is actually worth, ever heard of surplus value? The idea of people just needing to get skilled doesn't really hold for me, people will always have to fill the jobs that require hard labor, fast food jobs, grocery jobs. Society demands that they exist, and people will work them.

Yes they can afford to pay but the laborer sets the market. If laborers stopped accepting shit wages capitalists would have no choice but to pay what the labor market demands. They would then pass on the cost to the consumer in order to maintain their profit margin. Until workers and consumers come together they will always make other people wealthy.

I agree they need to come together, but they're always demonized and ridicules if they try to.

 

[Asclepias]

Thats true. The laborer has options like upgrading his/her skills or leaving to find someone that will pay what he/she is worth.

The problem is, the capitalist cannot afford to pay the labor what he is actually worth, ever heard of surplus value? The idea of people just needing to get skilled doesn't really hold for me, people will always have to fill the jobs that require hard labor, fast food jobs, grocery jobs. Society demands that they exist, and people will work them.

Yes they can afford to pay but the laborer sets the market. If laborers stopped accepting shit wages capitalists would have no choice but to pay what the labor market demands. They would then pass on the cost to the consumer in order to maintain their profit margin. Until workers and consumers come together they will always make other people wealthy.

I agree they need to come together, but they're always demonized and ridicules if they try to.

Demonized?

Look at how the fight for 15 movement is being treated..

Not aware of what the 15 movement is? If its anything like the occupy movement they are going about it in the wrong way. You cant arbitrarily tell someone "you make too much money give me some." You have to cut off the source of that money via the consumer and the workers that produce the product/service.

 

[Marxist]

The problem is, the capitalist cannot afford to pay the labor what he is actually worth, ever heard of surplus value? The idea of people just needing to get skilled doesn't really hold for me, people will always have to fill the jobs that require hard labor, fast food jobs, grocery jobs. Society demands that they exist, and people will work them.

Yes they can afford to pay but the laborer sets the market. If laborers stopped accepting shit wages capitalists would have no choice but to pay what the labor market demands. They would then pass on the cost to the consumer in order to maintain their profit margin. Until workers and consumers come together they will always make other people wealthy.

I agree they need to come together, but they're always demonized and ridicules if they try to.

Demonized?

Look at how the fight for 15 movement is being treated..

Not aware of what the 15 movement is? If its anything like the occupy movement they are going about it in the wrong way. You cant arbitrarily tell someone "you make too much money give me some." You have to cut off the source of that money via the consumer and the workers that produce the product/service.

It's a movement to try to raise the minimum wage to $15, they are being demonizes and hated, much like labor unions these days, the corporate run media doesn't help

 

[Dragonlady]

I'm a software consultant with a valuable skill. I make way over 100K because when a company is spending millions of dollars on a data warehouse project, they want it done right. They are willing to pay big bucks for people with the right skills. In fact, last year I made over 260K.

Sucks to be you, doesn't it?

Simply said, I don't believe you either. I have friends who do the work you claim you're doing. They don't spend their time on message boards because they put in very long hours working. You've posted 39,000 messages in 4 years, that's nearly 10,000 messages per year, or 27 messages per day, 365 days per year. If you are a computer consultant, you wouldn't have all this time to be playing around on a message board.

edited to correct the math.

 

[Asclepias]

Yes they can afford to pay but the laborer sets the market. If laborers stopped accepting shit wages capitalists would have no choice but to pay what the labor market demands. They would then pass on the cost to the consumer in order to maintain their profit margin. Until workers and consumers come together they will always make other people wealthy.

I agree they need to come together, but they're always demonized and ridicules if they try to.

Demonized?

Look at how the fight for 15 movement is being treated..

Not aware of what the 15 movement is? If its anything like the occupy movement they are going about it in the wrong way. You cant arbitrarily tell someone "you make too much money give me some." You have to cut off the source of that money via the consumer and the workers that produce the product/service.

It's a movement to try to raise the minimum wage to $15, they are being demonizes and hated, much like labor unions these days, the corporate run media doesn't help

The problem is you cant rich by demand. My thing is why raise the minimum wage to $15? Why not let people making less than a livable wage collect welfare to offset the difference? When they are able to upgrade their skills they can get off the welfare since they have become more valuable to the market.

 

[Marxist]

I agree they need to come together, but they're always demonized and ridicules if they try to.

Demonized?

Look at how the fight for 15 movement is being treated..

Not aware of what the 15 movement is? If its anything like the occupy movement they are going about it in the wrong way. You cant arbitrarily tell someone "you make too much money give me some." You have to cut off the source of that money via the consumer and the workers that produce the product/service.

It's a movement to try to raise the minimum wage to $15, they are being demonizes and hated, much like labor unions these days, the corporate run media doesn't help

The problem is you cant rich by demand. My thing is why raise the minimum wage to $15? Why not let people making less than a livable wage collect welfare to offset the difference? When they are able to upgrade their skills they can get off the welfare since they have become more valuable to the market.

Raising the minimum wage to keep up with productivity and keep up with rising costs reduce the need for welfare, and the whole upgrading skills thing doesn't hold up for me, when I realize the majority of jobs are unskilled and have to be filled.

 

[Asclepias]

Demonized?

Look at how the fight for 15 movement is being treated..

Not aware of what the 15 movement is? If its anything like the occupy movement they are going about it in the wrong way. You cant arbitrarily tell someone "you make too much money give me some." You have to cut off the source of that money via the consumer and the workers that produce the product/service.

It's a movement to try to raise the minimum wage to $15, they are being demonizes and hated, much like labor unions these days, the corporate run media doesn't help

The problem is you cant rich by demand. My thing is why raise the minimum wage to $15? Why not let people making less than a livable wage collect welfare to offset the difference? When they are able to upgrade their skills they can get off the welfare since they have become more valuable to the market.

Raising the minimum wage to keep up with productivity and keep up with rising costs reduce the need for welfare, and the whole upgrading skills thing doesn't hold up for me, when I realize the majority of jobs are unskilled and have to be filled.

No it doesnt reduce the need for welfare. It disguises the source of the welfare by calling it a wage. When companies close down due to their profit margin disappearing more people will be out of a job. The other way it will hurt is if companies move their operations overseas. Its a vicious cycle. People pay X amount of $ for a product. You cant give people more money to make the product if its not worth more money.

 

[Marxist]

Look at how the fight for 15 movement is being treated..

Not aware of what the 15 movement is? If its anything like the occupy movement they are going about it in the wrong way. You cant arbitrarily tell someone "you make too much money give me some." You have to cut off the source of that money via the consumer and the workers that produce the product/service.

It's a movement to try to raise the minimum wage to $15, they are being demonizes and hated, much like labor unions these days, the corporate run media doesn't help

The problem is you cant rich by demand. My thing is why raise the minimum wage to $15? Why not let people making less than a livable wage collect welfare to offset the difference? When they are able to upgrade their skills they can get off the welfare since they have become more valuable to the market.

Raising the minimum wage to keep up with productivity and keep up with rising costs reduce the need for welfare, and the whole upgrading skills thing doesn't hold up for me, when I realize the majority of jobs are unskilled and have to be filled.

No it doesnt reduce the need for welfare. It disguises the source of the welfare by calling it a wage. When companies close down due to their profit margin disappearing more people will be out of a job. The other way it will hurt is if companies move their operations overseas. Its a vicious cycle. People pay X amount of $ for a product. You cant give people more money to make the product if its not worth more money.

I can see your point, the capitalist needs the worker to produce surplus value, and doesn't want to lose profits, but other countries with higher wages are doing fine. One of my main problems with capitalism is that laborers need to be exploited due to the need to create surplus value. Capitalism is vicious, but many will get mad that you suggest welfare, but I can actually agree with your point. The capitalist greed knows no limit.

 

[Asclepias]

Not aware of what the 15 movement is? If its anything like the occupy movement they are going about it in the wrong way. You cant arbitrarily tell someone "you make too much money give me some." You have to cut off the source of that money via the consumer and the workers that produce the product/service.

It's a movement to try to raise the minimum wage to $15, they are being demonizes and hated, much like labor unions these days, the corporate run media doesn't help

The problem is you cant rich by demand. My thing is why raise the minimum wage to $15? Why not let people making less than a livable wage collect welfare to offset the difference? When they are able to upgrade their skills they can get off the welfare since they have become more valuable to the market.

Raising the minimum wage to keep up with productivity and keep up with rising costs reduce the need for welfare, and the whole upgrading skills thing doesn't hold up for me, when I realize the majority of jobs are unskilled and have to be filled.

No it doesnt reduce the need for welfare. It disguises the source of the welfare by calling it a wage. When companies close down due to their profit margin disappearing more people will be out of a job. The other way it will hurt is if companies move their operations overseas. Its a vicious cycle. People pay X amount of $ for a product. You cant give people more money to make the product if its not worth more money.

I can see your point, the capitalist needs the worker to produce surplus value, and doesn't want to lose profits, but other countries with higher wages are doing fine. One of my main problems with capitalism is that laborers need to be exploited due to the need to create surplus value. Capitalism is vicious, but many will get mad that you suggest welfare, but I can actually agree with your point. The capitalist greed knows no limit.

The people with the gold always exploit the masses with a little gold in order to get more gold. This is true in almost every system.

 

[Marxist]

It's a movement to try to raise the minimum wage to $15, they are being demonizes and hated, much like labor unions these days, the corporate run media doesn't help

The problem is you cant rich by demand. My thing is why raise the minimum wage to $15? Why not let people making less than a livable wage collect welfare to offset the difference? When they are able to upgrade their skills they can get off the welfare since they have become more valuable to the market.

Raising the minimum wage to keep up with productivity and keep up with rising costs reduce the need for welfare, and the whole upgrading skills thing doesn't hold up for me, when I realize the majority of jobs are unskilled and have to be filled.

No it doesnt reduce the need for welfare. It disguises the source of the welfare by calling it a wage. When companies close down due to their profit margin disappearing more people will be out of a job. The other way it will hurt is if companies move their operations overseas. Its a vicious cycle. People pay X amount of $ for a product. You cant give people more money to make the product if its not worth more money.

I can see your point, the capitalist needs the worker to produce surplus value, and doesn't want to lose profits, but other countries with higher wages are doing fine. One of my main problems with capitalism is that laborers need to be exploited due to the need to create surplus value. Capitalism is vicious, but many will get mad that you suggest welfare, but I can actually agree with your point. The capitalist greed knows no limit.

The people with the gold always exploit the masses with a little gold in order to get more gold. This is true in almost every system.

Except for a system in which that which produces the gold is collectively owned by the workers, or true communism.

 

[Asclepias]

The problem is you cant rich by demand. My thing is why raise the minimum wage to $15? Why not let people making less than a livable wage collect welfare to offset the difference? When they are able to upgrade their skills they can get off the welfare since they have become more valuable to the market.

Raising the minimum wage to keep up with productivity and keep up with rising costs reduce the need for welfare, and the whole upgrading skills thing doesn't hold up for me, when I realize the majority of jobs are unskilled and have to be filled.

No it doesnt reduce the need for welfare. It disguises the source of the welfare by calling it a wage. When companies close down due to their profit margin disappearing more people will be out of a job. The other way it will hurt is if companies move their operations overseas. Its a vicious cycle. People pay X amount of $ for a product. You cant give people more money to make the product if its not worth more money.

I can see your point, the capitalist needs the worker to produce surplus value, and doesn't want to lose profits, but other countries with higher wages are doing fine. One of my main problems with capitalism is that laborers need to be exploited due to the need to create surplus value. Capitalism is vicious, but many will get mad that you suggest welfare, but I can actually agree with your point. The capitalist greed knows no limit.

The people with the gold always exploit the masses with a little gold in order to get more gold. This is true in almost every system.

Except for a system in which that which produces the gold is collectively owned by the workers, or true communism.

Has that ever existed in the modern world? The best system is one that combines elements of capitalism (which would stimulate growth) and communism.

 

[Marxist]

Raising the minimum wage to keep up with productivity and keep up with rising costs reduce the need for welfare, and the whole upgrading skills thing doesn't hold up for me, when I realize the majority of jobs are unskilled and have to be filled.

No it doesnt reduce the need for welfare. It disguises the source of the welfare by calling it a wage. When companies close down due to their profit margin disappearing more people will be out of a job. The other way it will hurt is if companies move their operations overseas. Its a vicious cycle. People pay X amount of $ for a product. You cant give people more money to make the product if its not worth more money.

I can see your point, the capitalist needs the worker to produce surplus value, and doesn't want to lose profits, but other countries with higher wages are doing fine. One of my main problems with capitalism is that laborers need to be exploited due to the need to create surplus value. Capitalism is vicious, but many will get mad that you suggest welfare, but I can actually agree with your point. The capitalist greed knows no limit.

The people with the gold always exploit the masses with a little gold in order to get more gold. This is true in almost every system.

Except for a system in which that which produces the gold is collectively owned by the workers, or true communism.

Has that ever existed in the modern world?

The free territories of Ukraine, the Paris commune, some other examples that were crushed or appeared during revolutions... All we have had are claimed socialist states and places that existed like the USSR failing to follow Marxism-Leninism.

 

[Steinlight]

Sorry, but the Free Market requires you to work for shit pay and no health care. ARE ECONOMY depends on it.

ARE ECONOMY.

Guy, you live in a European Socialist country with universal health care.

Eat shit niglet.

 

[Steinlight]

Look at how the fight for 15 movement is being treated..

Not aware of what the 15 movement is? If its anything like the occupy movement they are going about it in the wrong way. You cant arbitrarily tell someone "you make too much money give me some." You have to cut off the source of that money via the consumer and the workers that produce the product/service.

It's a movement to try to raise the minimum wage to $15, they are being demonizes and hated, much like labor unions these days, the corporate run media doesn't help

The problem is you cant rich by demand. My thing is why raise the minimum wage to $15? Why not let people making less than a livable wage collect welfare to offset the difference? When they are able to upgrade their skills they can get off the welfare since they have become more valuable to the market.

Raising the minimum wage to keep up with productivity and keep up with rising costs reduce the need for welfare, and the whole upgrading skills thing doesn't hold up for me, when I realize the majority of jobs are unskilled and have to be filled.

No it doesnt reduce the need for welfare. It disguises the source of the welfare by calling it a wage. When companies close down due to their profit margin disappearing more people will be out of a job. The other way it will hurt is if companies move their operations overseas. Its a vicious cycle. People pay X amount of $ for a product. You cant give people more money to make the product if its not worth more money.

There is no evidence creates this large amount of unemployment that you corporate tools suggest. Depending on the studies, some even suggest the extra aggregate demand of a higher minimum wage would create new jobs. At worst, the studies conducted suggest about 1 to 5% of minimum wage workers lose their jobs, however benefiting the other 95 to 99% immensely with a wage increase.

Here is a CBO study that discusses their projections of the affects of another increase.
The Effects of a Minimum-Wage Increase on Employment and Family Income Congressional Budget Office

Historically, no evidence suggest past increases in minimum wage have had an adverse effect on the unemployment rate.
Addicting Info Does Increasing The Minimum Wage Increase Unemployment 60 Years Of Data Says No

 

[Spare_change]

The lack of depth of your knowledge of history is stunning ... I suggest that, instead of spouting talking points continuously, you should go back and actually study what happened in 2008. Then, you can come back here and apologize.

I saw exactly what happened in 2008. The same thing that happened in 1929. THe rich got too greedy and fucked it up.

It is this kind of ignorance that has allowed the government to take over control of our lives. YOU are the problem.

 

[Spare_change]

There exists a very sizeable percent of plain and simple bad businesses that do not Ike even hard workers. It is a workers job to avoid working there by not applying in the first place. I would say up to half.

Huh?

You're aware, of course, that this makes absolutely no sense at all. You probably want to re-word it.

 

[Spare_change]

It is up to the worker to discover that about 50 percent of employers are bad news and should be avoided at all costs. DO some research, limit your choices.

Exactly what defines a 'bad news' employer?