Why Was No One Armed & Shooting Back In El Paso WalMart ?

[bigrebnc1775]

The Constitution doesn't tell the people what they can and can't do.

It tells the government what it can and can't do.

So does it tell the Gov't it can't ban assault rifles?

That's really ignorant.
have you ever heard of shall not be infringed?

Really, so if you can afford it you can own a short range nuke if you like. Smfh.

answer the god damn question
Have you ever heard of shall not be infringed?

Sure have, are they infringing on your rights if they stop you from purchasing a LAW? Why do you register your vehicles? If you have a RIGHT to carry why bother with getting a Concealed to carry permit.

WOW THERE YOU GO RED HERRING.
Why do I register my vehicle because it's not a right to own and drive a vehicle on public roads
Why do I have a concealed carry? because I'll obey laws if they are reasonable

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Yes. It does.

Obviously not since it has been done before.

It was done because a majority of people at the time were clueless of the second amendment Now you'll have a fight on your hands. Then you will have a blood bath

No you won't, you clowns kill me with all your tough talk.

don't write a check your ass can't cash.

TI was talking about you when he said, "you have an alligator mouth with a humming bird ass."

That cut deep.
when you get out from behind that keyboard are you just as tough?

 

[harmonica]

Why is one CCW holder expected to be there (per the OP), but two CCW holders an improbable scenario?

The fact is, it is fairly likely. And, having heard shots and seen people running, the other CCW holder would likely shoot anyone he saw with a gun in his hand.

Also, the idea that a 9mm pistol and a 7.62x39 rifle are the same is laughable.

Both have relatively small bullets. Commonly 115 gr for the 9mm and 125 for the 7.62x39. But that is where the similarity ends. The rifle will have a muzzle velocity of 2365 fps. The pistol will have +/- 1100 fps.

And the huge difference is in the energy. The 9mm, even with +P ammunition, will have only 500 ft lbs of energy. The rifle will 1552 ft lbs of energy. In other words, what ever flimsy display rack you are hiding behind, the rifle bullets will reach you.

Who said 2 CCW holders is improbable ? There could be 2 DOZEN.

At close range, the rifles superiority is mitigated down.

Why do you generally respond only to MY posts ? That's a rhetorical question. It's because you have a burr up your ass about me, from the many times I've debated you, and you can't handle being told you're not 100% right.

So now take your little troll stick and go somewhere else. You haven't contributed squat to this thread anyway, and it's pretty base that you put your own ego above the safety and security of Americans, as you appear to be willing to say anything, as long as it contradicts me.

....if there are 2 dozen CCW, most will not know who the real shooter is--and if they don't kill each other, the real shooter will

 

[harmonica]

but he has you outgunned...
.....what if there is another CCW with a gun--but you don't know he is a good guy--if you don't shoot him, he will kill you if he's the bad guy

You are coming up with very improbable scenarios.

1. As I explained before, if you are close to the shooter, and he is firing a semiautomatic (single shot) rifle, he does NOT have your handgun outgunned.

2. Not quite sure what you're talking about, but you positively ID the bad guy, by having seen him murdering innocent shoppers, and you shoot him QUICKLY. This aint rocket science.

if if if if --this is not TJ Hooker and John Wayne movies
.....IF you are close to the shooter there's a good chance YOU are dead BEFORE you pull out your weapon--he his firing and your gun is holstered

AGAIN, this is not TV land--the Norwegian shooter lured people by saying he was a cop

 

[JoeB131]

The El Paso Walmart shooter killed 20 people (so far) and wounded 26 more. He may well have fired some shots missing people also. It's pretty fair to say this nut fired at least 50 shots, and very possibly well more than that.

It takes quite some time to fire that many shots individually, as this guy did, walking aisle to aisle, through the store. If there had been an armed security guard, or any armed citizen with a CCW license, this guy could have (and should have) been stopped cold after the first 2 or 3 shots.

Here's the problem.

The kind of gutless coward who needs a gun to compensate for a tiny dick isn't going to put himself in danger.

 

[harmonica]

I agree
these are DYNAMIC situations--NOT TV land/movie land

I DISagree 100%.

so they are LIKE TV shows?????!!!!?????
hey, this CCW got killed trying to be a hero because the situation was dynamic
they were not even trying to kill people
he did EXACTLY what you think people should do--and he died

Cost of Bravery: Vegas Bystander Died Trying to Stop Rampage
dynamic

 

[WinterBorn]

No advantage? Other than being easier to shoot accurately and having higher magazine capacity than most pistols, and having much better ballistics, you might be right.

Actually, you're completely wrong, and for a military veteran, you should know better. In an open field, at a distant target, the rifle might easier to shoot accurately. But in a confined indoor place, at very close range, it's just the opposite. Advantage is to the pistol (in that scenario).

As for magazine capacity, the standard magazine capacity is 30 rounds for an AK47. Pistols generally are less, but it takes about 3 seconds to change clips in a semiautomatic pistol. 1-remove clip....2-insert new clip....3-pull slide. Done.

And the rifle takes how long to change a magazine?

The AK is a carbine more than a long rifle. It is easier to shoot accurately unless you are in tight spaces. A Walmart is not a tight space.

Oh, and most pistols will lock open when the last round is fired. Unlike what the movies show, you don't pull the slide after inserting a new mag. You just release it with your thumb.

 

[WinterBorn]

That is nonsense. Any officer responding to the call would treat any armed person as the perpetrator.

That is nonsense. 911 dispatchers, having spoken to shoppers, and briefed on the shooters description, relay it to the cops. Upon arrival they will know the suspect.

Also, long before the 6 minutes for cops to arrive, the killer could/should be dead, and cops will have a mop up job. This is what happened in the actual cases I cited earlier.

No. The cops will treat every armed person on the scene as a potential shooter. If they are not shooting they will be told to drop their weapon. You either drop your weapon or you get shot.

A black security guard caught a shooting suspect — only to be shot by police minutes later
A security guard was shot & killed by police AFTER he had subdued an armed man.

 

[WinterBorn]

If you hit your target. Are you willing to risk the lives of the people running around behind the shooter on you being 100% accurate?

It wouldn't be a risk, if you are very close to the "target", From a very short distance, I don't miss. Neither do most CCWs.

Stop trying to find ways to dismiss the CCW fix. Are you trying to maximize casualties ?

Do you tell cops (who are further away) to not shoot ?

How do you get close? The shooter is at the front of the Walmart. That is an open area. The cashiers have either fled or been shot. You are looking at 50 to 100 feet from cover to where the shooter would be standing.

I have no problem hitting a target at 50 feet at the range. But the target is not moving or shooting back. This "I don't miss" attitude would be a good way to kill an innocent. You have to at least consider what is behind your target. To do otherwise is reckless and dangerous.

 

[WinterBorn]

No. Standard operating procedure in such a situation is to treat everyone with a gun the same. YOu will be ordered to surrender and shot if you do not do so fast enough. Better hope your hearing recovers from a shootout indoors quickly enough to hear the orders.

Cops won't see CCW guy with a gun. His (or THEIR) guns will be put away, and suspect will be dead, long before cops arrive. It took them 6 minutes to get to the mall. Killer should eliminated a few seconds after he starts shooting.

So, you are so sure that you had only one shooter that you put your gun away? Not smart. Witnesses reported seeing 3 shooters.

 

[WinterBorn]

Why is one CCW holder expected to be there (per the OP), but two CCW holders an improbable scenario?

The fact is, it is fairly likely. And, having heard shots and seen people running, the other CCW holder would likely shoot anyone he saw with a gun in his hand.

Also, the idea that a 9mm pistol and a 7.62x39 rifle are the same is laughable.

Both have relatively small bullets. Commonly 115 gr for the 9mm and 125 for the 7.62x39. But that is where the similarity ends. The rifle will have a muzzle velocity of 2365 fps. The pistol will have +/- 1100 fps.

And the huge difference is in the energy. The 9mm, even with +P ammunition, will have only 500 ft lbs of energy. The rifle will 1552 ft lbs of energy. In other words, what ever flimsy display rack you are hiding behind, the rifle bullets will reach you.

Who said 2 CCW holders is improbable ? There could be 2 DOZEN.

At close range, the rifles superiority is mitigated down.

Why do you generally respond only to MY posts ? That's a rhetorical question. It's because you have a burr up your ass about me, from the many times I've debated you, and you can't handle being told you're not 100% right.

So now take your little troll stick and go somewhere else. You haven't contributed squat to this thread anyway, and it's pretty base that you put your own ego above the safety and security of Americans, as you appear to be willing to say anything, as long as it contradicts me.

OFF TOPIC!!

 

[Blues Man]

The El Paso Walmart shooter killed 20 people (so far) and wounded 26 more. He may well have fired some shots missing people also. It's pretty fair to say this nut fired at least 50 shots, and very possibly well more than that.

It takes quite some time to fire that many shots individually, as this guy did, walking aisle to aisle, through the store. If there had been an armed security guard, or any armed citizen with a CCW license, this guy could have (and should have) been stopped cold after the first 2 or 3 shots.

As someone who has a CCW license, and is armed 99% of the time, when I'm walking around outside, it is amazing to me that there could have been that many people walking around unarmed and defenseless. Why? Don't they know something like this could happen at any time ?

In contrast, in 2002, a Muslim terrorist (Hesham Mohamed Hadayet) walked into Los Angeles Airport (LAX) armed with 2 handguns, plus magazines loaded with dozens of bullets. He shot and killed 2 people, and wounded 4. The airport was filled with people. The terrorist was shot dead right on the spot, by a security guard who was armed and ready to deal. Without that good guy with a gun, the airport would have been a bloodbath, just like this WalMart, and probably even worse.

This ARMED DEFENSE is what should have been the case in El Paso. How this guy could pull off what he did without getting shot, by a guard or CCW carrying citizen is mind boggling.

2002 Los Angeles International Airport shooting - Wikipedia

A CCW permit does not imply an obligation to come to the aid of anyone.

The police don't even have a lagal obligation to come to the aid of the citizenry. Why do you want to hold a civilian to a higher standard that you do the police

 

[WinterBorn]

Why is one CCW holder expected to be there (per the OP), but two CCW holders an improbable scenario?

The fact is, it is fairly likely. And, having heard shots and seen people running, the other CCW holder would likely shoot anyone he saw with a gun in his hand.

Also, the idea that a 9mm pistol and a 7.62x39 rifle are the same is laughable.

Both have relatively small bullets. Commonly 115 gr for the 9mm and 125 for the 7.62x39. But that is where the similarity ends. The rifle will have a muzzle velocity of 2365 fps. The pistol will have +/- 1100 fps.

And the huge difference is in the energy. The 9mm, even with +P ammunition, will have only 500 ft lbs of energy. The rifle will 1552 ft lbs of energy. In other words, what ever flimsy display rack you are hiding behind, the rifle bullets will reach you.

Who said 2 CCW holders is improbable ? There could be 2 DOZEN.

At close range, the rifles superiority is mitigated down.

Why do you generally respond only to MY posts ? That's a rhetorical question. It's because you have a burr up your ass about me, from the many times I've debated you, and you can't handle being told you're not 100% right.

So now take your little troll stick and go somewhere else. You haven't contributed squat to this thread anyway, and it's pretty base that you put your own ego above the safety and security of Americans, as you appear to be willing to say anything, as long as it contradicts me.

If there are more than 1 CCW holders, and they are close enough to mitigate the rifles superiority, they will be close enough to be jacked up on adrenaline and wil likely shoot each other. Being close enough to mitigate the rifle's advantages is close. If you are that close, hearing gunfire, seeing panicked people, and then you see a man with a gun, you will likely react and shoot. If for no other reason than because you assume it is a second shooter.

 

[WinterBorn]

Why is one CCW holder expected to be there (per the OP), but two CCW holders an improbable scenario?

The fact is, it is fairly likely. And, having heard shots and seen people running, the other CCW holder would likely shoot anyone he saw with a gun in his hand.

Also, the idea that a 9mm pistol and a 7.62x39 rifle are the same is laughable.

Both have relatively small bullets. Commonly 115 gr for the 9mm and 125 for the 7.62x39. But that is where the similarity ends. The rifle will have a muzzle velocity of 2365 fps. The pistol will have +/- 1100 fps.

And the huge difference is in the energy. The 9mm, even with +P ammunition, will have only 500 ft lbs of energy. The rifle will 1552 ft lbs of energy. In other words, what ever flimsy display rack you are hiding behind, the rifle bullets will reach you.

Who said 2 CCW holders is improbable ? There could be 2 DOZEN.

At close range, the rifles superiority is mitigated down.

Why do you generally respond only to MY posts ? That's a rhetorical question. It's because you have a burr up your ass about me, from the many times I've debated you, and you can't handle being told you're not 100% right.

So now take your little troll stick and go somewhere else. You haven't contributed squat to this thread anyway, and it's pretty base that you put your own ego above the safety and security of Americans, as you appear to be willing to say anything, as long as it contradicts me.

If there are more than 1 CCW holders, and they are close enough to mitigate the rifles superiority, they will be close enough to be jacked up on adrenaline and wil likely shoot each other. Being close enough to mitigate the rifle's advantages is close. If you are that close, hearing gunfire, seeing panicked people, and then you see a man with a gun, you will likely react and shoot. If for no other reason than because you assume it is a second shooter.

In the 2014 Las Vegas Walmart shooting, a civilian with a gun was killed because he ignored everything but the one shooter he saw.
"The two then fled to a nearby Walmart, where Jerad fired a shot at the ceiling and ordered shoppers to leave. Joseph Wilcox drew his concealed 9mm Glock 19 and confronted Jerad,[11] but passed Amanda as he did so, not realizing that she was armed and Jerad's accomplice; Amanda shot and killed Wilcox."

 

[bullwinkle]

I would imagine that the shooting did not last to long when he shot all his ammo and then like a coward surrendered.

I'm waiting on the investigation. It is said the shooter surrendered without incident, just laid down his gun and gave up. That may not be the act of a coward, but the act of somebody who has something to say or who believes he has enough support from the like-minded to be thought of as a patriot. It is hard to figure how a normally sane person of Christian upbringing can think that killing large groups of people who are no threat to him/her or what they love an be a heroic act.

With his capture, all we have to think about is whose version of the shooter's testimony is valid. I fear it will be like the Mueller Report...gospel to some and jabbering screed to others.

 

[NoNukes]

The Cielo Vista Mall was well known for banning permitted concealed handguns

I suspected that, it explains why he drove 600 miles to find a soft target. Just like the Colorado wack job who passed two other movie theatres to get to the one that didn't allow firearms.

Another person in the store shooting is not the answer.

So your answer is to take away my Constitutional right because a nut decided to shoot up a mall. Have I got that right?

Americans have shown that they cannot be trusted to own guns. Some people are responsible with guns, but too many are not. Time to change the constitution.

 

[Manonthestreet]

The vet was at the Mall next to Walmart....not inside the Walmart....
Army specialist picked up kids fleeing El Paso shooting and 'just ran as fast as I could'

ok, he was taking his kid out of harm's way. and you have a problem with this?

Why would I ...guy wasn't in same building or in harm's way....post was simply informational. He wasn't on scene so he couldn't engage whether he wanted to or not

 

[Brain357]

They have a very large population of Arabs. Border policies? Who cares? I've seen no evidence our border policies has any real effect on our homicide rate.

If all you're going to do is dent and cling to your beliefs (as wrong and misguided as they may be) then that's on you.

You seem to be babbling with no point and wasting my time. Fact is countries with strong gun control have homicide rates a small fraction of ours.

Fact is, the vast majority of gun related deaths in the US is suicides or gang related. Per Capita we have a very safe society other than those.
Are you contemplating suicide? You are more likely to be killed by lightning statistically.
Further, to be brief, most of the countries you will use are vastly different in culture and policies.
The US is overly gracious, giving and tolerant....and thus sees a lion's share of abuse.
Finally, Fact is, most of the European countries you use as examples are plagued with crime and are seeing not only surges in gun violence, but also overall surges in crime.

You are wasting my time.
You are apparently quite content to make one single brush stroke on a canvass.....and yet declare it a Picasso.
You WANT to believe what you believe. You are not interested in the truth or causation. Just what you've been told to believe.

Yes that is true, yet we are also the only country suffering from regular mass shootings. Why should we continue to have them when there is a solution? Countries with strong gun control have gangs, but less death... Guns are viewed as painless and quick for suicide and highly effective. Those combine to increase suicide rates.

LIke I already stated, those countries have homicide rates a small fraction of ours. If they are plaqued we are something far worse than plaqued.

 

[debbiedowner]

Except for this manifesto that was posted on the 8 chan site it would appear that this was a call to his brothers on the far right.

Meh, if the people in the store had anybody allowed to carry concealed, this wouldn't have happened there.

These cowards only go for soft targets. They don't have the balls to go after anyone that can shoot back.

Where are the gun toting folks at? Are you saying that none of the gun carrying folks shop at Wal Mart.

No, I am saying that the mall the Wallmart was located in did not permit concealed carry handguns.

Where's your proof? I have researched a good couple hours and no where can I find they or the mall are gun free zones.

Maybe this will help? It doesn't say that it's applicable to the specific store but it's for the Walmart and it mentions concealed carry. I'm not sure about the mall itself though
https://www.quora.com/What-is-Walmarts-open-carry-gun-policy-in-Texas

That is open carry if I am not mistaken that does not apply to concealed.

 

[RealDave]

So does it tell the Gov't it can't ban assault rifles?

That's really ignorant.
have you ever heard of shall not be infringed?

Really, so if you can afford it you can own a short range nuke if you like. Smfh.

answer the god damn question
Have you ever heard of shall not be infringed?

Sure have, are they infringing on your rights if they stop you from purchasing a LAW? Why do you register your vehicles? If you have a RIGHT to carry why bother with getting a Concealed to carry permit.

WOW THERE YOU GO RED HERRING.
Why do I register my vehicle because it's not a right to own and drive a vehicle on public roads
Why do I have a concealed carry? because I'll obey laws if they are reasonable

the right to bear arms. The right to be armed. Here is a .22 single shit rifle,, you are now armed. Amendment satisfied.