Why wouldn't Jesus...

[Intense]

The bible does say that those with a surplus should give to those with a deficit, so that those with less can have more, and those with too much can have just enough..

Separation of church and state is all.. That is the only logical reason I can think of that some people would have a problem with it- but it seems that the people who have the biggest problem with it are religious conservative fundies, lol.. Go figure..

Religious conservative fundies don't believe in giving surplus. They believe in tithing 10 percent. Before taxes. Go figure.

that's why it says it'll be harder for the rich to get to heaven, cause they'll love their money and possessions more than anything.

Put God First in All Things.

 

[AVG-JOE]

I agree that helping the poor shouldn't mean just handing money over to them.

But I disagree that it can't mean the government...after all the government IS the people. I also don't think Jesus was talking about the church, as there was no "church" at the time.

The difference is the amount of resources at the fingertips of congress and the states versus the resources available to any given church.

Wouldn't it be cool if the US Military was thought of as The Worlds Firefighters instead of The Worlds Police Force?

 

[JD_2B]

The bible does say that those with a surplus should give to those with a deficit, so that those with less can have more, and those with too much can have just enough..

Separation of church and state is all.. That is the only logical reason I can think of that some people would have a problem with it- but it seems that the people who have the biggest problem with it are religious conservative fundies, lol.. Go figure..

What Verse? LOL

maybe it is this?

luke 12:48
For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.

No- it was a different one.. I am having a hard time tracking it down, but I read it with my own eyes.. It was surprisingly socialistic.. very literal, and close to the words I used.

 

[Intense]

The bible does say that those with a surplus should give to those with a deficit, so that those with less can have more, and those with too much can have just enough..

Separation of church and state is all.. That is the only logical reason I can think of that some people would have a problem with it- but it seems that the people who have the biggest problem with it are religious conservative fundies, lol.. Go figure..

What Verse? LOL

maybe it is this?

luke 12:48
For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.

You do notice that reads differently. Responsibility works exactly that way. We are responsible through Conscience to God. We decide what, when, and where, and to what degree, not the State. Portion is not decided by decree but by effort.

 

[Intense]

What Verse? LOL

maybe it is this?

luke 12:48
For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.

No- it was a different one.. I am having a hard time tracking it down, but I read it with my own eyes.. It was surprisingly socialistic.. very literal, and close to the words I used.

JD Here is a link to a great bible resource search engine. It should bring you to the exact page, if not close.


Search -- Holy Bible

 

[Intense]

Deuteronomy 25:15 But thou shalt have a perfect and just weight, a perfect and just measure shalt thou have: that thy days may be lengthened in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Ezekiel 45:10 Ye shall have just balances, and a just ephah, and a just bath.


Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Colossians 4:1 Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

 

[Care4all]

Deuteronomy 25:15 But thou shalt have a perfect and just weight, a perfect and just measure shalt thou have: that thy days may be lengthened in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Ezekiel 45:10 Ye shall have just balances, and a just ephah, and a just bath.


Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Colossians 4:1 Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

my guess would be the 4th one down???

thanks for that link btw.... i know it was 4 jd 2b, but it will come in handy for me!

 

[Intense]

James 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Based on need, not surplus. To do what you can directed by conscience, not the State. The State doesn't enter into it at all at this level.

 

[AVG-JOE]

I agree that helping the poor shouldn't mean just handing money over to them.

But I disagree that it can't mean the government...after all the government IS the people. I also don't think Jesus was talking about the church, as there was no "church" at the time.

It will be a red letter day in human history when We, The People recognize the competition we have with organized religions for the hearts of the next generation, at least with regards to education.

When it comes to protecting the weak throughout our history, religion, despite some successful examples, has failed pretty miserably... It has been a willing and paid accomplice to brutality for economic gain more than a few times, religion has....

Anyhoo - I digress... Perhaps it is time to let 'public' authority give it a shot?

 

[AllieBaba]

What Verse? LOL

maybe it is this?

luke 12:48
For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.

No- it was a different one.. I am having a hard time tracking it down, but I read it with my own eyes.. It was surprisingly socialistic.. very literal, and close to the words I used.

Look in the OT.

Bible.com is a great place to look up passages.

 

[AllieBaba]

The fact of the matter is, we were given all the tools and knowledge to live in peace and harmony. But we won't, God knew we won't, he knows future, past, present, it's all part of his design.

Impossible for us to fathom, though the more you contemplate it the easier it is to accept that the plan, from giving us the tools to be perfect, to the understanding that we will never be perfect, and telling us the way it will pan out, what our roles will be and the rewards and punishments at the end.

I think of it like this...God is tempering us with fire. Our life on earth is only a minute fraction of our being. The part that will last longer, and the part that only God can see, will come after.

 

[Dr Grump]

I wish a god did exist..

 

[AllieBaba]

God does, you just have to invite him in.

 

[Avatar4321]

I wish a god did exist..

And why is that? (He does btw).

 

[AVG-JOE]

I wish a god did exist..

I'm with you Grump. I used to be a born again Christian. Now I believe survival of the fittest is a more plausible explanation, given our sordid history.

Sometimes I miss having Jesus in my life. He was quite real in my head and heart.....and comforting.

No one to blame but ourselves.

 

[logical4u]

I'm not going to bother addressing your points. You are extremely judgmental and you are making all kinds of assumptions about what I do and do not believe.

I asked a simple question, it has been answered to my satisfaction.

Is that because you can't?

 

[logical4u]

want us to structure our society to help the poor?

Jesus preached that we should help the poor...that is indisputable.

I often see self-described Christians arguing against social welfare, claiming that Jesus meant that we should help the poor individually.

This makes no sense to me. If we have the power, as individuals, to collectively help the poor then IMO this is what Jesus would want us to do.

Any thoughts?

they do....without reading the rest of the thread, i am sure this is a broad swipe at republicans.....churches do far better for the poor than the government....

thread fail

It was actually against some Christians, but nice try.

btw, can you prove that the churches do better for the poor than government? I'd like to see you do that.

Check the percentage of the money "donated" versus the amounts that get to the "intended" recipients. The gov typically has to increase the original predictions, due to "administrative costs".

 

[logical4u]

It was actually against some Christians, but nice try.

btw, can you prove that the churches do better for the poor than government? I'd like to see you do that.

Every day, Ravi. There are Shelters, Kitchens, Pantry's, Networks, Some even in partnership with Government funding Because the Government knows it is effective. They are also generally volunteer. Some Zero overhead. It's not a contest though Ravi. You can Volunteer near.

Zero overhead, I don't think so...I've been in some of those megachurches. There's no zero overhead.

There is a difference between the charities (in most churches) and the operational costs, they are kept seperate (in most churches). One of the reasons the churches are impressive is the references to tything in the Bible. The OT talks about the Hebrews being preoccupied with their own wealth when the temple was not, yet, rebuilt. The Hebrews after many years were punished for ignoring the Lord. (IMHO this was done to have fear of the Lord and to have joy in fearing (both gifts from the Holy Spirit) of the Lord [kind of like when bragging about how tough your parents are when you were little)]. Donations are given to the church to represent sacrifice (since the death of Yeshua was the most impressive BLOOD sacrifice to the Lord, EVER). The reference to "zero overhead" was in reference to already having a place to operate and using volunteers.

 

[Ravi]

they do....without reading the rest of the thread, i am sure this is a broad swipe at republicans.....churches do far better for the poor than the government....

thread fail

It was actually against some Christians, but nice try.

btw, can you prove that the churches do better for the poor than government? I'd like to see you do that.

Check the percentage of the money "donated" versus the amounts that get to the "intended" recipients. The gov typically has to increase the original predictions, due to "administrative costs".

The words of someone on a message board isn't proof...just so you know.

 

[logical4u]

Christ did NOT want churches spending their time on the needy, he felt the "people" should, and the Church should spend their time on spreading the gospel and only the rogue widow here or there would need their help.

The Churches have just as much to GAIN monetarily as a politician would, for helping the poor....they may not abuse their donations and all of it goes towards the poor, but i doubt such...I am certain the Church takes a cut of this money for their overhead and some....

I did see somewhere that Churches do use less of this money on overhead than charities such as United Way etc...but they still do use some of this money donated, for their Church, Church clergy etc...

And going back to the topic...

On the whole, Jesus WOULD NOT BE UPSET if the people in a community of society decided to take care of their needy...

IT IS BLASPHEMY to state otherwise imo....it is saying something that is GOOD is evil...something GOOD is from GOD, and something EVIL is from the DEVIL....making the poorest and their children starve to death would be evil, shunning them and ignoring them, would be EVIL.....

But wanting to help them is NOT EVIL.....no matter HOW your heads want to TWIST AND TURN AND SPIN IT. Amen!

You are right, Yeshua would not be upset if the "people" of the community decided to take care of the needy.

This thread is about requiring "charity" (as a law) to be collected and distributed by the gov. Yeshua understood gov; he taught individual responsibility, not community responsibility, not gov responsibility. Charity by gov is gov programs, something we already have, we understand that. Conservatives do not want another gov program that distributes approx 10% of its budget to those it is supposed to help, while the other 90% goes to managing resources and gov jobs.