Will Republicans end social security?

[Red Front]

Just #1 is a prime example of printing more dollars making each dollar worth less, inflation.
#2. Have you bothered looking at your gas, electric and gasoline bills lately. Inflation galore! How are electric plants powered? COAL! Lol!
#3. Once again you confuse socialism with welfare nets. The “community” is those running the community’s government. Forcing people to spread the wealth around but not for welfare purposes. There are small communities that have managed this line the Amish. But, that’s about it. Mormons tried it in the 1830’s and it flopped. But, we aren’t talking about small communities. We are talking about political governments forcing people to spread the wealth around. Unfortunately, I have to say it again, the people in control don’t spread their wealth into the population under Socialist governments. They become the “pigs” of Animal Farm. Scandinavian countries are not these governments. Scandinavian countries allow people to keep their property including money after they pay into the welfare net. If they don’t like it, they are free to move to another country. Try that with the USSR or China or Cuba. I don’t understand why a bright person like yourself can’t grasp the difference between what China does and what the Scandinavians do.
#4. Kensian economics destroys wage growth and promotes socialist methods of redistribution forcefully. Wage growth skyrocketed under Trump even for Blacks due to deregulation of business and lowering taxes for those who make jobs for others and pays them. And, when prices of goods are inflated, corporations pass the price increases and wage increases to the consumers expanding inflation. Let the market control prices and wages. It worked for Trump and blacks.
#5. Some of the countries in Western Europe are going down the same rabbit hole the U.S. is going, towards communist socialism. Not the Scandinavian countries. Forcing people who didn’t go to college or those who did and got good educations with meaningful degrees to pay for the lazy poor choices of college students is socialism and tyranny. It’s being attempted by force by Biden. In other words, shut up and sit down or go to jail.

1. Increased money supply does not always lead to inflation. Post-2008, for example, significant increases in the money supply did not yield hyperinflation (source: Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis).
2. Energy price inflation stems largely from supply-demand imbalances, not solely from clean energy transitions. Renewable energy could stabilize prices long-term (Forbes).
3. Socialism, defined as community control over production, doesn't imply lack of freedom. Many democratic countries, including in Western Europe, have implemented socialist policies while preserving political freedoms.
4. Wage growth during Trump's tenure followed a long wage stagnation period. This growth wasn't evenly distributed among workers (Economic Policy Institute).
5. Many Western European countries have mixed market economies with strong social safety nets. Universal education, seen as an investment in these nations, doesn't equate to tyranny.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Though there are pros and cons to both plans, pensions are generally considered better than 401(k)s because all the investment and management risk is on your employer, while you are guaranteed a set income for life.

Unless your employer folds.

There is nothing wrong with pension systems with two provisions:

1. They have to be properly funded on the front end to cover long term benefits,
2. IMHO - the "management" of the pension fund should not be the employer (it should be an unaffiliated 3rd party so the employer can't raid the fund and is required to make the needed contributions.)

WW

 

[sealybobo]

Personally? I don't think it's as valuable later in life. But there are individual variables.

The value normally associated with a traditional 401K is that you put money away pre-income tax, the deposits grow tax fee, however Uncle Same want's their taxes and you pay taxes upon withdrawal once you reach retirement age. The real advantage here is if you will be in a lower income tax bracket in retirement than in your working years. Just to pick numbers lets say you working years are in the 27% bracket, but in retirement you will be in the 22% bracket. There is a tax savings of there because of the lower tax rate.

So the variables are "What other income will you have in retirement." (Not likely to work out for the wife and I was with our Defined Benefits income we will remain in the same tax bracket.)
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With a Roth the real savings comes from having the money in the post-tax savings plan for a long time. You paid the taxes on the deposits, but you don't pay taxes on the interest, or the interest on the interest, or the interest on the interest on the interest. (The whole compound interest thingy.) I mean sure if you deposit a $1,000,000 post-tax at 50 you can get a significant return, but most middle class folks don't have that kind of cash laying around to seed a Roth to a high value in later years.
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Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the Roth IRA, Traditional IRA, or 401K type plans. I highly support them but to make them valuable in retirement you have to start young, be disciplined, and look for long term growth. I DOESN'T MATTER which it is, what does matter it not waiting until you are in your 50's and 60's to start.
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My wife and I have been, I guess fairly responsible. We both earned military pensions which have provided some financial security and flexibility. (We are ex-enlisted, so we are talking big bucks here, but we are still thankful.) Since our 30's every single paycheck we've received have had a little somet'n-somet'n go into our Defined Contributions retirement accounts. As a result our disposable income will actually increase when we stop working in a few year.

WW

So you're getting a pension. Fucker! This is what I was saying earlier. 401K's were sold to us as something we could do ON TOP of social security and pensions. But of course eventually corporations did away with pensions and now all you got is 401K.

I hear pensions are coming back. Maybe not for everyone but if you are a valued worker, companies may start offering you a pension plan. Stay 10 years, get this much. 20, get more.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Pensions offer greater stability than 401(k) plans.

I don't disagree with this or with anything else in the rest of the post.

I'm glad we're old school and will have multiple revenue streams in retirement from Defined Benefits (DB) that will maintain out standard of living without having to touch our additional Defined Contribution (DC) savings. The DC assets are out shock absorber which (hopefully) will be there in case of a medical event, illness, assistive living need or Long Term Care later in life.

And if something happens to both my wife and I fast, the DC assets can be passed down to our kids.

In addition to DB v. DC income, we support the old school notion of owning your own home going into retirement.

WW

 

[WorldWatcher]

So you're getting a pension. Fucker! This is what I was saying earlier. 401K's were sold to us as something we could do ON TOP of social security and pensions. But of course eventually corporations did away with pensions and now all you got is 401K.

I hear pensions are coming back. Maybe not for everyone but if you are a valued worker, companies may start offering you a pension plan. Stay 10 years, get this much. 20, get more.

Ya, I can see where the post boomer folks are going to have a lot of trouble in retirement. I agree, 401K's were sold as a supplement so that retirement was a Triad of income. Part being 401K, part being Pension, part being Social Security.

But it's not all on the company, it's part of the result of the mobile work force also. I've had 2 employers in the last 45 years. The Navy was one and my current employer for 24 years. Used to be employment was a long term commitment and not a 2 or 3 year gig and move to the next job.

That's why I say I'd like to see pensions make a comeback, but they shouldn't be managed by the employer, they should reside in decidual accounts, and the accounts should be portable as you change employers.

WW

 

[sealybobo]

I don't disagree with this or with anything else in the rest of the post.

I'm glad we're old school and will have multiple revenue streams in retirement from Defined Benefits (DB) that will maintain out standard of living without having to touch our additional Defined Contribution (DC) savings. The DC assets are out shock absorber which (hopefully) will be there in case of a medical event, illness, assistive living need or Long Term Care later in life.

And if something happens to both my wife and I fast, the DC assets can be passed down to our kids.

In addition to DB v. DC income, we support the old school notion of owning your own home going into retirement.

WW

I worked for a place for 5 years a long time ago. They told me I had to move my 401K. I put it in an annuity. Later I was told I could have made a lot more doing something different, but now it's too late to move it. Just leave it my financial adviser said. Well this one bucket is going to pay me something like $500 a month and they said if I just take the payouts, it will theoretically never run out as long as I live. The point is, I love this extra bucket of $ I have. Maybe it wasn't the best investment that would have made me the most $ but it will be a good source of monthly income when I retire.

A lot of people tell me maybe I should wait and retire at 65 so I get a bigger monthly payment. Maybe with this investment and my 401K I can hold off 3 years so my social security payments aren't $1200. Or whatever you get when you retire at 62. I know it's not much.

 

[sealybobo]

Ya, I can see where the post boomer folks are going to have a lot of trouble in retirement. I agree, 401K's were sold as a supplement so that retirement was a Triad of income. Part being 401K, part being Pension, part being Social Security.

But it's not all on the company, it's part of the result of the mobile work force also. I've had 2 employers in the last 45 years. The Navy was one and my current employer for 24 years. Used to be employment was a long term commitment and not a 2 or 3 year gig and move to the next job.

That's why I say I'd like to see pensions make a comeback, but they shouldn't be managed by the employer, they should reside in decidual accounts, and the accounts should be portable as you change employers.

WW

That was corporations doing! Employees don't look for a job every 5 years because they want to. There is no job security anymore! And this impacts everything. Getting a mortgage. Deciding if you want to have kids. Savings. Spending. OMG I could go on and on about this. Ever hear about Jack Welch and GE? He was the first to break the social contract corporations had with employees back in the 70's. German's still have this social contract. A German can expect to work for the company he works for until he retires. And if he really doesn't fit in I believe the German government will help them find another company that is better suited for them and they will work there until they retire.

Jack Welch was the first to say "I'm going to fire the bottom 20% in every department every year no matter how profitable we are". And this proved to be very profitable. So I'm not saying workers should have an absolute right to their job but in America, like you said, most people only last about 2-3 years. I think the average is 5.

As a salesperson who works on salary plus commission, every time I have to start over at a new company, I start off making jack shit. So for a year or two, every 5 years, I don't make shit. So this affects how much I'm able to save too.

Sounds to me like you get it. You understand why America isn't great anymore. Or at least why the middle class isn't great anymore. You seem to understand. They/We don't have it nearly as good as you did/do.

My dad is the same. He worked at Ford for 20 years. Retired with a pension. Not as big as a 30 year pension but big enough.

The average retirement age in the United States is 61, according to a 2022 Gallup survey. In 1991, the average retirement age in the U.S. was 57; in 2002, it was 59. According to the poll, people still working in 2022 expect to retire at 66 on average.

To me this means corporations are getting 5 more years of work out of us for free.

I want to retire at 62. Might not be able to because of healthcare costs. Sure would be nice if I could get medicare when I turned 62.

 

[Cougarbear]

Though there are pros and cons to both plans, pensions are generally considered better than 401(k)s because all the investment and management risk is on your employer, while you are guaranteed a set income for life.

Nope. Just ask those who lost all their money when their pensions disappeared. See, pensions are defined benefit plans in which the employer and administrator can and do establish cash flow provisions allowing them to take your money to pay for cash flow losses including all of it. There is no “vesting” with a pension. The likelihood of a government pension to have this happen too is small. What they do is tax the general public more to keep the pension going aka California who is broke and has to beg the Feds to print more
Money to keep the scam going. But private companies can just use the cash flow provision.

401ks, 403bs, 457s and other “Qualified Plans” have a defined contribution plan “vesting” option that gives the individual employee 100% of their money eliminating the cash flow provision of a defined benefit pension plan. 401ks are by far more safe. Even in a bankruptcy, all the bankruptcy attorney can do is temporarily freeze your assets until the bankruptcy is finalized. So, until then, all you would be prohibited to do is roll it over to an IRA.

Amazing what people don’t know and understand about retirement plans.

 

[Cougarbear]

1. Increased money supply does not always lead to inflation. Post-2008, for example, significant increases in the money supply did not yield hyperinflation (source: Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis).
2. Energy price inflation stems largely from supply-demand imbalances, not solely from clean energy transitions. Renewable energy could stabilize prices long-term (Forbes).
3. Socialism, defined as community control over production, doesn't imply lack of freedom. Many democratic countries, including in Western Europe, have implemented socialist policies while preserving political freedoms.
4. Wage growth during Trump's tenure followed a long wage stagnation period. This growth wasn't evenly distributed among workers (Economic Policy Institute).
5. Many Western European countries have mixed market economies with strong social safety nets. Universal education, seen as an investment in these nations, doesn't equate to tyranny.

Sorry but I’ve debunked this and you are just looking childish and foolish.

 

[sealybobo]

Nope. Just ask those who lost all their money when their pensions disappeared. See, pensions are defined benefit plans in which the employer and administrator can and do establish cash flow provisions allowing them to take your money to pay for cash flow losses including all of it. There is no “vesting” with a pension. The likelihood of a government pension to have this happen too is small. What they do is tax the general public more to keep the pension going aka California who is broke and has to beg the Feds to print more
Money to keep the scam going. But private companies can just use the cash flow provision.

401ks, 403bs, 457s and other “Qualified Plans” have a defined contribution plan “vesting” option that gives the individual employee 100% of their money eliminating the cash flow provision of a defined benefit pension plan. 401ks are by far more safe. Even in a bankruptcy, all the bankruptcy attorney can do is temporarily freeze your assets until the bankruptcy is finalized. So, until then, all you would be prohibited to do is roll it over to an IRA.

Amazing what people don’t know and understand about retirement plans.

Can't they fix that? Don't allow the corporation to borrow from the fund. Maybe have a 3rd party manage the pension.

 

[sealybobo]

Unless your employer folds.

There is nothing wrong with pension systems with two provisions:

1. They have to be properly funded on the front end to cover long term benefits,
2. IMHO - the "management" of the pension fund should not be the employer (it should be an unaffiliated 3rd party so the employer can't raid the fund and is required to make the needed contributions.)

WW

I didn't see this post from you before I posted this

Can't they fix that? Don't allow the corporation to borrow from the fund. Maybe have a 3rd party manage the pension.

You read my mind.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I hear pensions are coming back. Maybe not for everyone but if you are a valued worker, companies may start offering you a pension plan. Stay 10 years, get this much. 20, get more.

Example of someone I know

Pays 14% of gross pr year. Can retire after 30 years, age 55.
After vestment, every year of service gets 2.2% of average of the 5 highest years of income
30ys = 77% 35yes (max) = 87.5%
Assume the top 5 years average 85k 30yrs = 65k/yr 35yrs=75k/yr
Over the 30 year, you contributed ~9k/yr - about 272k.
Retire at 55. Live 30 years. A little less than $2M total benefit before taxes.

Same setup, continuing the same $9k/yr to a 401k w/ an average of 4.3% annual return addsto to about $2.750,000

 

[sealybobo]

Example of someone I know

Pays 14% of gross pr year. Can retire after 30 years, age 55.
After vestment, every year of service gets 2.2% of average of the 5 highest years of income
30ys = 77% 35yes (max) = 87.5%
Assume the top 5 years average 85k 30yrs = 65k/yr 35yrs=75k/yr
Over the 30 year, you contributed ~9k/yr - about 272k.
Retire at 55. Live 30 years. A little less than $2M total benefit before taxes.

Same setup, continuing the same $9k/yr to a 401k w/ an average of 4.3% annual return addsto to about $2.750,000

My one buddy and his wife for years told me to max out my 401K. He just retired at age 53. Says he has millions. Sounds like he did exactly what you are saying. He made over $100K she probably makes $60K. No kids so it was easy for them.

He also sold weed for a few years until his home was paid off. Once the home was paid off he sold his grow operation and was scared for 7 years the government was going to catch him. Either for selling pot or not paying taxes on the money. I think enough time has gone by he doesn't have to worry anymore.

And who knows what the truth really is? Did his family help him pay off his home? I know his sister who has money bought him his first car when he graduated college. No student debt because he went to the Navy for 5 years and no car payment when you graduate? Sounds like a good start. But he was smart and MAXED out his 401K from day one.

 

[Cougarbear]

Can't they fix that? Don't allow the corporation to borrow from the fund. Maybe have a 3rd party manage the pension.

3 parties manage defined contribution plans. Or at least, employers have that options to help with the fiduciary responsibilities the employer has. With pensions, the employer puts all of their money into the defined benefit plan as a benefit above an beyond your salary. It's the employer's money. Regulations have all but gotten rid of those for employers. Only those who can really afford them still have them. Only Congress could make changes to having employees invested with pension plans and that won't happen.

 

[kyzr]

WW

Red Front is saying that when the Fed prints money that is a very good thing.
If you follow our discussion on page 72 you might have some economic insights?
Here are two videos that I like. She is an amazing speaker, not using a teleprompter! Not sure I agree with her, but...

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

The fact is simple: they will be put up blindfolded against a wall if they try to end SS.

 

[kyzr]

The fact is simple: they will be put up blindfolded against a wall if they try to end SS.

Amazing, we finally agree on something.
Their lips move, but they aren't fixing SS or Medicare.

 

[Red Front]

Sorry but I’ve debunked this and you are just looking childish and foolish.

You haven't debunked anything, you just spew out irrelevant drivel, ignoring all of the points I made.

 

[Cougarbear]

Red Front is saying that when the Fed prints money that is a very good thing.
If you follow our discussion on page 72 you might have some economic insights?
Here are two videos that I like. She is an amazing speaker, not using a teleprompter! Not sure I agree with her, but...

Ever hear of a comedian named Pat Paulsen? His funniest routines were when he would double talk making it hard to understand. That's this woman. double talk. Typical leftist economist who has no problem spending other people's money. Because she says that the government doesn't print more money when it is going to pay for a new program like the Covid Relief Fund is double talk. Yes, it is often done by not printing actual dollars. But, the checks you got were real dollar amounts as if you received cash dollar bills. If it looks, sings and smells like a pig, it's a pig! The dollars people all of a sudden had in their bank accounts were actually real dollars printed. With our advanced technology, we can hide that from those who believe in double talk. But, there are more dollars in the economy and we all know this led to hyper inflation under Joe Biden. Each of your dollars, whether in your pocket or in your electronic bank account were were less because there were more dollars paper or electronic.
And, to say that this sort of nonsense spending is good and can go on forever, ask the Russians how printing more rubles went after they felt they had to keep up with our military under Reagan. Ya, we can keep printing. But eventually the piper has to be paid. She's a communist.

 

[Cougarbear]

You haven't debunked anything, you just spew out irrelevant drivel, ignoring all of the points I made.

I didn't ignore your points. But, you seem to be ignoring mine. I debunked your points. Name one I didn't and try again to defend yours. Not by posting some communist liberal economist spewing double talk about how debt is a good thing.