WTF was Obama talking about with equal treatment & pay for women?

[Dr Grump]

When this kind of disparity happens even with high caliber professionals, that gives a hint of why women find it best not to rock the boat with wages.

If they are offered better pay, then they should take it. Pretty simple. If they started following the money, then they'd actually get the money. But because they settle, they get what they've settled for.

Women have reason to believe that if they press as hard as a man might they will be wished well and sent off to look for a different job.

Well, this is part of the problem. Seems women are looking at this all wrong. In my experience, most men negotiate better pay for themselves. It's not about rocking the boat or being forceful. It's about finding win-win solutions. Typically, when I see a men successfully negotiate better pay they emphasize their high degree of competence, their successes and accomplishments that have benefited the company, the expanded roles and responsibilities that they may have taken on, etc. But most women tend resort to a demanding and/or manipulative behavior to try to get better pay. They deserve it, they need it, someone else is getting paid more.....That's not an effective approach.

One of the things with negotiating is that you don't always get what you want, or exactly what you were hoping for. When negotiating pay and work requirements sometimes you have to accept trade offs. Nowadays it's increasingly common for people to want things like the ability to work from home, to be given flexibility in determining their own working hours, etc. And it seems that women push for these things more often than men. Especially if she's a mother. But it's not reasonable for anyone to expect that they be given everything. Sally gets one set of concessions, Mark get's another set, neither gets the whole package. Any person, male or female, who is constantly pushing to have it all should not expect their boss to put forth alot of effort toward retaining them, unless they are the best of the best of the best at what they do.

You make some valid points, but there is definitely data out there showing that women - especially at the executive level - get less money than men. That is across the board. I think half the problem is that women will take what they can get and be grateful, especially those with smarts. If they start asking for this, that and the other they think they might be taken as trouble makers and set women back. It's a bit like the double standard of men sleeping around are studs, when women do it they're sluts.

Almost finished reading Isaacson's biography of Steve Jobs, and Isaacson noticed that the Apple board was made up of white, middle-aged males. And Jobs was reasonably enlightened.

 

[SwimExpert]

The men are in essence offered a double raise. The woman is offered the single raise and she has the choice of taking it or of staying at her original school for the lower amount.

Of course! As I said:

-Women tend to settle. An employer is much less likely to counter an offer if the employee is inclined to settle. The employer is much more likely to take the gamble that the employee may decide to stay in their current position.

-Women tend to demand instead of negotiating. An employer is much less likely to offer a counter to a person who is demanding a raise. They are more likely to be willing to consider a negotiation.

-Women tend to demand "the entire package." An employer is less likely to consider a raise if they have already made other concessions to you which other employees don't necessarily get. An employee who expects everything is an employee who tends to lose respect for the authority of his/her superiors and management.

-Women tend to try to use manipulation to get what they want in the workplace. An employer is much less likely to make a counter offer if they suspect that the main reason you sought other employment is to leverage a raise for yourself. Employers don't like to be held hostage, naturally.

-Women tend express entitlement for raises (they deserve it, they've been with company for so long, another person makes more money, etc). An employer is much less likely to consider a raise if you have not earned it through performance that you can articulate, taking on or agreeing to take on new responsibilities, or through the development of new skills and expertise.

The school wants to retain the male so they offer him a higher raise. She'll be paid a little higher at the new school. He'll be paid a lot higher at the old school because the old school treated him as if he was more valuable than the female.

You fail to consider that perhaps he was more valuable.

He doesn't have to fight for it. The woman would have to fight for it and her reward for such a fight would be to be branded as too aggressive because that's what happens to women who behave the way men do.

Again, you fail to understand that it's not a fight. It's a negotiation. You're right, if a woman tries to fight for it, she'll be branded as too aggressive. One of the biggest mistakes I see many women make is that they operate either passively, or aggressively. Assertiveness is an art that most are not adept at.

There are many forces which give rise to the disparity between the wages of men and women. It's not all because a woman doesn't go in asking for higher than the company wants to pay and not settling for less. There is more risk to being a woman and asking for a raise than there is to being a man and asking for a raise.

The only true "risk" I've ever observed is that which a woman creates for herself, because of the way she handles her job.

 

[BDBoop]

None of that bullshit should be involved. None of it. You shouldn't have to jump through hoops to explain why it's okay that women get screwed.

Really.

 

[SwimExpert]

None of that bullshit should be involved. None of it. You shouldn't have to jump through hoops to explain why it's okay that women get screwed.

Really.

Seriously? Were you even paying attention? Women aren't getting "screwed." Women getting paid, or not getting paid, on their own accord and merits.

 

[Amelia]

The men are in essence offered a double raise. The woman is offered the single raise and she has the choice of taking it or of staying at her original school for the lower amount.

Of course! As I said:

-Women tend to settle. An employer is much less likely to counter an offer if the employee is inclined to settle. The employer is much more likely to take the gamble that the employee may decide to stay in their current position.

-Women tend to demand instead of negotiating. An employer is much less likely to offer a counter to a person who is demanding a raise. They are more likely to be willing to consider a negotiation.

-Women tend to demand "the entire package." An employer is less likely to consider a raise if they have already made other concessions to you which other employees don't necessarily get. An employee who expects everything is an employee who tends to lose respect for the authority of his/her superiors and management.

-Women tend to try to use manipulation to get what they want in the workplace. An employer is much less likely to make a counter offer if they suspect that the main reason you sought other employment is to leverage a raise for yourself. Employers don't like to be held hostage, naturally.

-Women tend express entitlement for raises (they deserve it, they've been with company for so long, another person makes more money, etc). An employer is much less likely to consider a raise if you have not earned it through performance that you can articulate, taking on or agreeing to take on new responsibilities, or through the development of new skills and expertise.

The school wants to retain the male so they offer him a higher raise. She'll be paid a little higher at the new school. He'll be paid a lot higher at the old school because the old school treated him as if he was more valuable than the female.

You fail to consider that perhaps he was more valuable.

He doesn't have to fight for it. The woman would have to fight for it and her reward for such a fight would be to be branded as too aggressive because that's what happens to women who behave the way men do.

Again, you fail to understand that it's not a fight. It's a negotiation. You're right, if a woman tries to fight for it, she'll be branded as too aggressive. One of the biggest mistakes I see many women make is that they operate either passively, or aggressively. Assertiveness is an art that most are not adept at.

There are many forces which give rise to the disparity between the wages of men and women. It's not all because a woman doesn't go in asking for higher than the company wants to pay and not settling for less. There is more risk to being a woman and asking for a raise than there is to being a man and asking for a raise.

The only true "risk" I've ever observed is that which a woman creates for herself, because of the way she handles her job.

You are in denial. The man is offered more without having to do the tap dance the women would have to do.

When they have to negotiate, men's means of negotiation are deemed to be superior to women's. You're doing that here. But in many of these cases, the men don't even have to negotiate. The school wishes to retain them, so they offer more.

There is inherent bias.

It is manifest in many ways. For example, men also get more square footage of office space on average than women do. Do men deserve it more? There are many ways in which they are accorded more respect.

Identical papers are deemed to be superior when they are believed to be written by a man than when they are perceived to be written by a woman.

Bias exists. Risk exists.

I understand that you will not acknowledge it, and I won't continue to argue it. However, it is still real.

 

[PixieStix]

My boss is a woman, all my co workers are women. My boss is very successful. She gave me 3 raises in 2013. And 2 large bonuses. I don't think she nor I feel like there is a disparity in pay

 

[BDBoop]

None of that bullshit should be involved. None of it. You shouldn't have to jump through hoops to explain why it's okay that women get screwed.

Really.

Seriously? Were you even paying attention? Women aren't getting "screwed." Women getting paid, or not getting paid, on their own accord and merits.

And men are just that much better.

Where is the sarcasm font when you need it.

 

[SwimExpert]

You are in denial.

No, I'm simply telling the reality. You're trying to insert malicious intentions into something where there is none.

The man is offered more without having to do the tap dance the women would have to do.

You're entire position is based on assumptions. You assume that it has to do with gender. You simply can't fathom that people get the reactions they do based on their own choices, their own behaviors, the way that they have themselves handled things in the first place.

When they have to negotiate, men's means of negotiation are deemed to be superior to women's. You're doing that here.

Superior negotiation skills will yield superior results. That's the natural way of things.

But in many of these cases, the men don't even have to negotiate. The school wishes to retain them, so they offer more.

You're making assumptions. You don't know what has happened.

There is inherent bias.

Or maybe the male was more valuable. Maybe he was just better at his job.

It is manifest in many ways. For example, men also get more square footage of office space on average than women do.

Oh, please.

Do men deserve it more? There are many ways in which they are accorded more respect.

Respect is earned, not handed over. Goes back to the whole entitlement issue. Women think they are entitled to a certain stature in the workplace. If they don't get it, they blame it on bias.

Identical papers are deemed to be be superior when they are believed to be written by a man than when they are perceived to be written by a woman.

I understand that you will not acknowledge it, and I won't continue to argue it. However, it is still real.

The only real bias I've ever seen in the work place has been bias against men. If you're a man working with all or mostly women, life tends to be Hell. Bias against women, though, never. I've known several female friends, acquaintances, and/or co-workers who thought they weren't getting a fair shake because of gender discrimination. But ended up being able to help them see through that and help most of them figure out how they needed to adjust their own selves in order to get the results they wanted.

At the end of the day it's very simple. Be assertive, not aggressive or passive. Build your value, be able to express your value, remember that timing is everything, and negotiate a win-win solution. And if your employer doesn't go for it, then accept the better offer.

 

[SwimExpert]

None of that bullshit should be involved. None of it. You shouldn't have to jump through hoops to explain why it's okay that women get screwed.

Really.

Seriously? Were you even paying attention? Women aren't getting "screwed." Women getting paid, or not getting paid, on their own accord and merits.

And men are just that much better.

Where is the sarcasm font when you need it.

"Better." That's a dangerously vague term.

It's not about being "better." It's about successfully negotiating. Being passive is not a successful way to negotiate. Regardless of being a man or a woman, it will not get you far. Being aggressive is not a successful way to negotiate. Regardless of being a man or a woman, it will not get you far.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I have not heard ANY public outcry or discussions about women being mistreated in the workplace.

It's just another lib talking point chew toy

 

[thereisnospoon]

I have not heard ANY public outcry or discussions about women being mistreated in the workplace.

Ahh.... Radical militant man hating lesbian...great..
Fuck off you diesel dike.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I have not heard ANY public outcry or discussions about women being mistreated in the workplace.

When did Obama become PM of Australia?

Good question.

 

[thereisnospoon]

When did Obama become PM of Australia?

Works the same here.

Umm, those who are intelligent and express a healthy dose of cynicism understand that anyone with a bone to pick or has an agenda, can take numbers and twist/bend them to represent any point of view

 

[thereisnospoon]

When did Obama become PM of Australia?

Works the same here.

My ex makes less than her male counterparts at the same job....

1. She doesn't hold a degree
2. She doesn't travel
3. Due to (2) doesn't work the same long hours.

Looka.. you can't just say that because in some instances women earn less that there is discrimination. I can tell you as an employer, women typically can't/won't work the same hours/travel schedules as their male counterparts... for whatever reason, mostly child rearing issues... which frankly, isn't my problem.

You have to look at the overall picture.

Oh, but the feminazi's want us to ignore those factors. Then succumb to the whims of plaintiff's attorney favoring legislation such as that Lily Ledbetter bullshit.

 

[Darkwind]

I have not heard ANY public outcry or discussions about women being mistreated in the workplace.

How do you think that the Democrats manage to justify their existence in government?

They have to invent a crisis, then get the media to decry the inequity and unfairness of it all, and then they have to demonize people who did nothing to stop this before they invented it.

They then get to apply their 'compassion' by taking more of your money and throwing it at the problem until it becomes so expensive that people just can't live without it.

And how absolutely cruel of you to want to end this program. Don't you want to live in a country that takes care of each other?

Heartless bastard.

 

[Harry Dresden]

I have not heard ANY public outcry or discussions about women being mistreated in the workplace.

When did Obama become PM of Australia?

he got you there Wytch.....i cant relate to this because were i worked everyone got the same pay.......

 

[Harry Dresden]

No offense...but that map/chart was written by....well....certainly someone who has an agenda.....I mean...did you read the writing on the bottom?

Not saying it is not accurate....but there is no doubt the findings may be skewed.

Link to your assertion...thnx

hey Grump.....long time ....good to see ya....

 

[Dr Grump]

[

hey Grump.....long time ....good to see ya....

Good to see you too Harry!

 

[NoNukes]

I have not heard ANY public outcry or discussions about women being mistreated in the workplace.

Here's a thought...If women really do perform exactly as men and yet work for less, why would any evil, profit oriented capitalist business owner EVER hire a man???

Sexism. Many men are threatened to have women who are their equals working for them.

 

[Interpol]

If you ask for a raise every year and back up your stance with the quality of the work you do and what your value is to the place you work at, you'll get raises.

If you never ask, they'll never give you one.

One of the variables is that men have the advantage of testosterone in them. It's why they're more aggressive creatures than women.

My mother didn't have a clue until she was about 45 years old and at her job for 23 years at the time that her male counterpart was getting a few thousand more bucks a year.

She was actually more qualified, better educated, and more valuable than he was. The problem? She had never actually considered her value to her employer. On the contrary, she believed you get to work early and you do things to help make the employer succeed better at their own job (she was an executive assistant).

She never thought of herself! That man pressed for raises over time and got them. She never did. Never occurred to her.

The irony about the women in our lives is that they underestimate themselves and their worth, both at home and at work.

My mother went and got that raise and then some. Within a year, she was making what she deserved and a little more than what that man was making.

The perception at work from everybody for years was that she was the #2 guy, not that other guy, but she was #3 in pay.

This kind of thing exists. Pay inequality has gotten a lot better, particularly among the younger generation now. But it's still something that needs to be worked on.

This thread reveals in our conservative friends a lack of understanding of a real issue that many women in the real world care about. So much so that they voted for President Obama by a near 20% margin over his opponent.

If about 60% of women aren't voting for you, it should make you wonder why that is. By creating threads on forums like these in order to make fun of a real issue they see in their own lives, it simply shines a light on why they continue to see the Republican party as not being a viable option to them.

And that's bad news for Republicans, because 10 million more women voted than men in the last general election.

It isn't because the President created a crisis and scared women into voting for him. If you think that's what it is, you're ignorant to the fact that women voted for him because he hears what their concerns are and speaks to those concerns.

I'm not sure why the flippant behavior towards our women continues by Republicans, when they should be in the process of reaching out to get women back to voting for them again.