YES, America CERTAINLY WAS FOUNDED as a CHRISTIAN NATION...

[UltimateReality]

I'll take this to mean that your feelings were hurt when you were exposed for your lies.

I'm still waiting for your reference to christianity or the christian gods in the constitution.

Let everyone witness this. Hollie never addresses her lies, but using her distraction technique to take the focus off HER agenda and misrepresentations on this and other forums. She is not interested in the healthy exchange of viewpoints. She is a troll and feeds on controversy and hatred.

My goodness. Aren't you the angry little boy.

And still no reference to christianity or the christian gods in the constitution. You were exposed for lies and now you're upset and lashing out.

Have you learned a valuable lesson in this?

Yes. Don't encourage stalkers. It's best just to ignore them because they feed on attention, even if it is negative attention.

 

[UltimateReality]

She will never answer the real pertinent questions. Her technique is to keep you trapped in her thought line without deviation. For to deviate, she would have to address the real outlying issues. This question is not rhetorical to her, but will not be answered in the next 10 pages of hate.

She will get you to admit God is not mentioned in the Constitution (He isn't) and claim a very childish viewpoint of victory.

So Hollie/Rugged Touch, here is my answer. God is not mentioned in the Constitution. So now do me the favor of answering my question:

Shall we take the Constitution as a document existing in and of itself, with no authors, no history, and no other works from that period? The body of evidence from the time is overwhelming that the inspiration for the Constitution was very much Christianity, with the caveat that no one denomination be forced on the public as it was in England.

#1...the inspiration of the Constitution was the Enlightenment, the Athenian Democracy and the Roman Republic.

#2..."caveat that no one denomination".....you mean, other religions besides christianity can be forced out? That's what our Founders intended?

Good observations.

The US Constitution, quite literally and plainly (by choice of the FF's), leaves out any mentioning of gods and such (and it is this obvious deletion that caused the Danbury Baptists to argue in favor of incorporating some mention of the Christian god in the document that would define the nation's fundamental laws). The colonies of the time were conclaves of religious intolerance, wherein a Baptist in one colony was safe, but a Roman Catholic was a criminal by defintion, yet in a different colony the reverse was true. This is completely unworkable and the FF's knew it.

Note that the separation of state and church did not mean ignoring the church or faith. It means the state cannot legislate religious belief upon the populace -- and by defintion the only way to acheive that is for the state to be neutral on all matters of religion.

Curious, I just pulled a quarter out of my pocket and it says "In God We Trust".

Oh and oops, there are the 10 commandments right there on the Supreme Court wall.

 

[logical4u]

What is the "written" date on the Constitution?

She will never answer the real pertinent questions. Her technique is to keep you trapped in her thought line without deviation. For to deviate, she would have to address the real outlying issues. This question is not rhetorical to her, but will not be answered in the next 10 pages of hate.

She will get you to admit God is not mentioned in the Constitution (He isn't) and claim a very childish viewpoint of victory.

So Hollie/Rugged Touch, here is my answer. God is not mentioned in the Constitution. So now do me the favor of answering my question:

Shall we take the Constitution as a document existing in and of itself, with no authors, no history, and no other works from that period? The body of evidence from the time is overwhelming that the inspiration for the Constitution was very much Christianity, with the caveat that no one denomination be forced on the public as it was in England.

#1...the inspiration of the Constitution was the Enlightenment, the Athenian Democracy and the Roman Republic.

#2..."caveat that no one denomination".....you mean, other religions besides christianity can be forced out? That's what our Founders intended?

Where does "enlightenment" originate?

 

[bodecea]

What is the "written" date on the Constitution?

The date that was LEGALLY required to make something a LEGAL document thru out the Western world at that time.

But please....do tell us that our Nation is a Christian nation because it has "Year of Our Lord"...which is merely the translation of Anno Domino......

So...any history book with AD in it is a christian book, eh?

The question was for "a single reference" to Christianity or the the Christian Lord. It is there.

BTW, the founders were very educated people. Most knew more than one language and knew of other cultures and calendars. If they wanted to make the country more "American" they could have used the Aztec calendar. If they wanted the world to know how influencial Rome was, they could have used a Roman calendar (and declared that the citizens "worship" the new emperor). They would have been aware of the Arabian calendar, and could have chosen that. They did not. They chose the calendar that European Christians (and the gov't officials educated by the churches) used.

You mean like modeling on the ROMAN Republic? Building federal buildings in the ROMAN style...using ROMAN (Latin) words in our laws?

You mean like that?

So...where are the christian concepts in our Constitution?

 

[Hollie]

Your answer is in the date of the Constitution.

False. Conspiracy theories will not save your failed argument.

It is not "false". You wanted a reference, you got one, and now you are going to pretend it isn't so. It appears you are being "false".

So then, show us a single reference to the christian gods or christianity in the constitution.

It's a simple request but you keep refusing to do so.

Promoting conspiracy theories is a waste of time. Are you suggesting a secret amendment to the constitution has taken place which only you and a select few others are privy to?

 

[JimBowie1958]

Why are you having such difficulty finding a reference to christianity in the constitution if, as you claim, the U.S. was founded on christian principles?

Your answer is in the date of the Constitution.

So, all documents with "Year of our lord" or "Anno Domino" or "AD" in them are christian documents.....?

Obviously.

Canyou show us some that are not by a Christian state, entity or being avestige of a Christian state?

Do you think the Bolsheviks, Maoists, Mamelukes, Ottomans or Manchus used the term for their years? Why not?

 

[UltimateReality]

Why did the pilgrims come to America?

Mayflower Compact:

In the name of God, Amen. We whose names are under-written, the loyal subjects of our dread sovereign Lord, King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland King, Defender of the Faith, etc.

Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together into a civil body politic, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the Colony, unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In witness whereof we have hereunder subscribed our names at Cape Cod, the eleventh of November [New Style, November 21], in the year of the reign of our sovereign lord, King James, of England, France, and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth. Anno Dom. 1620.

 

[Hollie]

#1...the inspiration of the Constitution was the Enlightenment, the Athenian Democracy and the Roman Republic.

#2..."caveat that no one denomination".....you mean, other religions besides christianity can be forced out? That's what our Founders intended?

Good observations.

The US Constitution, quite literally and plainly (by choice of the FF's), leaves out any mentioning of gods and such (and it is this obvious deletion that caused the Danbury Baptists to argue in favor of incorporating some mention of the Christian god in the document that would define the nation's fundamental laws). The colonies of the time were conclaves of religious intolerance, wherein a Baptist in one colony was safe, but a Roman Catholic was a criminal by defintion, yet in a different colony the reverse was true. This is completely unworkable and the FF's knew it.

Note that the separation of state and church did not mean ignoring the church or faith. It means the state cannot legislate religious belief upon the populace -- and by defintion the only way to acheive that is for the state to be neutral on all matters of religion.

Curious, I just pulled a quarter out of my pocket and it says "In God We Trust".

Oh and oops, there are the 10 commandments right there on the Supreme Court wall.

Has that somehow amended the constitution?

I'm still waiting for the reference to christianity and the christian gods in the constitution. You do understand that the quarter that was in your pocket does not legislate law, right?

 

[bodecea]

She will never answer the real pertinent questions. Her technique is to keep you trapped in her thought line without deviation. For to deviate, she would have to address the real outlying issues. This question is not rhetorical to her, but will not be answered in the next 10 pages of hate.

She will get you to admit God is not mentioned in the Constitution (He isn't) and claim a very childish viewpoint of victory.

So Hollie/Rugged Touch, here is my answer. God is not mentioned in the Constitution. So now do me the favor of answering my question:

Shall we take the Constitution as a document existing in and of itself, with no authors, no history, and no other works from that period? The body of evidence from the time is overwhelming that the inspiration for the Constitution was very much Christianity, with the caveat that no one denomination be forced on the public as it was in England.

#1...the inspiration of the Constitution was the Enlightenment, the Athenian Democracy and the Roman Republic.

#2..."caveat that no one denomination".....you mean, other religions besides christianity can be forced out? That's what our Founders intended?

Where does "enlightenment" originate?

In the Humanist movement...getting away from the superstitions of the Middle Ages and certainly getting away from the idea of Divine Rights.

Heard of the Social Contract? Classical Liberalism? State of Nature?

 

[Hollie]

Why did the pilgrims come to America?

Mayflower Compact:

In the name of God, Amen. We whose names are under-written, the loyal subjects of our dread sovereign Lord, King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland King, Defender of the Faith, etc.

Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together into a civil body politic, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the Colony, unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In witness whereof we have hereunder subscribed our names at Cape Cod, the eleventh of November [New Style, November 21], in the year of the reign of our sovereign lord, King James, of England, France, and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth. Anno Dom. 1620.

That's nice. So where in the constitution are we to find mention of the christian gods?

 

[bodecea]

#1...the inspiration of the Constitution was the Enlightenment, the Athenian Democracy and the Roman Republic.

#2..."caveat that no one denomination".....you mean, other religions besides christianity can be forced out? That's what our Founders intended?

Good observations.

The US Constitution, quite literally and plainly (by choice of the FF's), leaves out any mentioning of gods and such (and it is this obvious deletion that caused the Danbury Baptists to argue in favor of incorporating some mention of the Christian god in the document that would define the nation's fundamental laws). The colonies of the time were conclaves of religious intolerance, wherein a Baptist in one colony was safe, but a Roman Catholic was a criminal by defintion, yet in a different colony the reverse was true. This is completely unworkable and the FF's knew it.

Note that the separation of state and church did not mean ignoring the church or faith. It means the state cannot legislate religious belief upon the populace -- and by defintion the only way to acheive that is for the state to be neutral on all matters of religion.

Curious, I just pulled a quarter out of my pocket and it says "In God We Trust".

Oh and oops, there are the 10 commandments right there on the Supreme Court wall.

#1...In God We Trust was added at the time of the Civil War...the original motto was E Pluribus Unum (oops....there's that ROMAN influence again)....and if we were to take "In God We Trust" off our money, do you think it would be worth less?

#2...What 10 Commandments on the Supreme Court wall? I've visited that building, and have seen no such thing. Do you perhaps have a photo to share? And which version of the 10 commandments is it? There are 3, you know.

 

[logical4u]

Why are you having such difficulty finding a reference to christianity in the constitution if, as you claim, the U.S. was founded on christian principles?

Your answer is in the date of the Constitution.

So, all documents with "Year of our lord" or "Anno Domino" or "AD" in them are christian documents.....?

You made a typo. It is: in the year of our Lord. Lord is capitalized because it is in reverence to Christ dying on the cross for our sins.

No where did I state that the Constitution was a "Christian" document. I said that it was influenced by Christian faiths.

Hollie (the little chickenshit) wanted "a single" reference to Christianity, and was given one. Like you, denial, denial, denial, even though it is written in black and white, part of our documented history. I understand, you two find corruption so much more appealing than the Lord. I pray He will be merciful, and you will search for the Truth (notice the capitalization, that is in reference and reverence to Christ).

 

[bodecea]

Why did the pilgrims come to America?

Mayflower Compact:

In the name of God, Amen. We whose names are under-written, the loyal subjects of our dread sovereign Lord, King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland King, Defender of the Faith, etc.

Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together into a civil body politic, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the Colony, unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In witness whereof we have hereunder subscribed our names at Cape Cod, the eleventh of November [New Style, November 21], in the year of the reign of our sovereign lord, King James, of England, France, and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth. Anno Dom. 1620.

The Pilgrims were religious refugees....no one denies that. They are also 150+ years before our nation was formed and their community AND their sect no longer existed. You DID know that, right?

 

[bodecea]

Your answer is in the date of the Constitution.

So, all documents with "Year of our lord" or "Anno Domino" or "AD" in them are christian documents.....?

You made a typo. It is: in the year of our Lord. Lord is capitalized because it is in reverence to Christ dying on the cross for our sins.

No where did I state that the Constitution was a "Christian" document. I said that it was influenced by Christian faiths.

Hollie (the little chickenshit) wanted "a single" reference to Christianity, and was given one. Like you, denial, denial, denial, even though it is written in black and white, part of our documented history. I understand, you two find corruption so much more appealing than the Lord. I pray He will be merciful, and you will search for the Truth (notice the capitalization, that is in reference and reverence to Christ).

You can capitalize lord all you want. I don't have to....or is that something you want codified into law so we all have to capitalize god and lord and allah and buddha and thor and zeus?

 

[Hollie]

Your answer is in the date of the Constitution.

So, all documents with "Year of our lord" or "Anno Domino" or "AD" in them are christian documents.....?

You made a typo. It is: in the year of our Lord. Lord is capitalized because it is in reverence to Christ dying on the cross for our sins.

No where did I state that the Constitution was a "Christian" document. I said that it was influenced by Christian faiths.

Hollie (the little chickenshit) wanted "a single" reference to Christianity, and was given one. Like you, denial, denial, denial, even though it is written in black and white, part of our documented history. I understand, you two find corruption so much more appealing than the Lord. I pray He will be merciful, and you will search for the Truth (notice the capitalization, that is in reference and reverence to Christ).

I'm sure I somehow missed your reference to christianity in the constitution. Please point me to that reference.

The entire constitution is rules that limit the government's involvement in the citizen's lives. It is clearly a muzzle on the state's ability to dictate to the citizenry what it can and cannot do within the paradigm of the federal mandate. Certainly rule of law is to be enforced, but that is also controlled at the local level. So it is not any news that government is restrained from interfering with religion.

What is not being said here is that once you are not allowed to interfere in favor of one religion, you must again be neutral across the board because any favortism to one religion must by definition be done so at the expense of another religion, or no religion.

That is why I'm fascinated to see your reference to christianity in the constitution.

 

[MHunterB]

It is a very simple question. What is the written date on the Constitution? No conspriracy theories, just a straight forward question. For the bold one, you proclaim yourself to be, this should not be hard.

Why are you having such difficulty finding a reference to christianity in the constitution if, as you claim, the U.S. was founded on christian principles?

Your answer is in the date of the Constitution.

The date has got nothing to do with any intent of our FF to give preference or primacy to the Christian religion.

Indeed, various FF were on record as making clear statements arguing against any specifically 'Christian' influence in our legal system.

 

[bodecea]

So, all documents with "Year of our lord" or "Anno Domino" or "AD" in them are christian documents.....?

You made a typo. It is: in the year of our Lord. Lord is capitalized because it is in reverence to Christ dying on the cross for our sins.

No where did I state that the Constitution was a "Christian" document. I said that it was influenced by Christian faiths.

Hollie (the little chickenshit) wanted "a single" reference to Christianity, and was given one. Like you, denial, denial, denial, even though it is written in black and white, part of our documented history. I understand, you two find corruption so much more appealing than the Lord. I pray He will be merciful, and you will search for the Truth (notice the capitalization, that is in reference and reverence to Christ).

I'm sure I somehow missed your reference to christianity in the constitution. Please point me to that reference.

Hollie...have you been in the Capitol Rotunda? It's fascinating to look up and see, in the dome, George Washington as a god, wearing robes, in the clouds....interesting for a government to supposedly be influenced by christianity yet oodles upon oodles of pagan references in and around our main government buildings.

 

[UltimateReality]

I'll do you one better. From Wiki:

The Articles of Confederation, formally the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union, was an agreement among the 13 founding states that established the United States of America as a confederation of sovereign states and served as its first constitution.[1] Its drafting by the Continental Congress began in mid 1776, and an approved version was sent to the states for ratification in late 1777. The formal ratification by all 13 states was completed in early 1781. Even if not yet ratified, the Articles provided domestic and international legitimacy for the Continental Congress to direct the American Revolutionary War, conduct diplomacy with Europe and deal with territorial issues and Indian relations. Nevertheless, the weak government created by the Articles became a matter of concern for key nationalists. On March 4, 1789, the Articles were replaced with the U.S. Constitution.[2][3] The new Constitution provided for a much stronger national government with a chief executive (the president), courts, and taxing powers.

Avalon Project - Articles of Confederation : March 1, 1781

XIII.

Every State shall abide by the determination of the United States in Congress assembled, on all questions which by this confederation are submitted to them. And the Articles of this Confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the Union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a Congress of the United States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State.

And Whereas it hath pleased the Great Governor of the World to incline the hearts of the legislatures we respectively represent in Congress, to approve of, and to authorize us to ratify the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union. Know Ye that we the undersigned delegates, by virtue of the power and authority to us given for that purpose, do by these presents, in the name and in behalf of our respective constituents, fully and entirely ratify and confirm each and every of the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union, and all and singular the matters and things therein contained: And we do further solemnly plight and engage the faith of our respective constituents, that they shall abide by the determinations of the United States in Congress assembled, on all questions, which by the said Confederation are submitted to them. And that the Articles thereof shall be inviolably observed by the States we respectively represent, and that the Union shall be perpetual.

In Witness whereof we have hereunto set our hands in Congress. Done at Philadelphia in the State of Pennsylvania the ninth day of July in the Year of our Lord One Thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy-Eight, and in the Third Year of the independence of America.

Agreed to by Congress 15 November 1777 In force after ratification by Maryland, 1 March 1781

 

[Hollie]

You made a typo. It is: in the year of our Lord. Lord is capitalized because it is in reverence to Christ dying on the cross for our sins.

No where did I state that the Constitution was a "Christian" document. I said that it was influenced by Christian faiths.

Hollie (the little chickenshit) wanted "a single" reference to Christianity, and was given one. Like you, denial, denial, denial, even though it is written in black and white, part of our documented history. I understand, you two find corruption so much more appealing than the Lord. I pray He will be merciful, and you will search for the Truth (notice the capitalization, that is in reference and reverence to Christ).

I'm sure I somehow missed your reference to christianity in the constitution. Please point me to that reference.

Hollie...have you been in the Capitol Rotunda? It's fascinating to look up and see, in the dome, George Washington as a god, wearing robes, in the clouds....interesting for a government to supposedly be influenced by christianity yet oodles upon oodles of pagan references in and around our main government buildings.

That actually jogged my memory as I was in the buliding probably 10 or 11 years ago.

What I think people need to consider is the genius of the FF's and the system of laws they established.

Think of whatever your religion is, and then ask yourself, how would you feel if you were forced to pledge to a god you didn't believe in? To many, it is of no consequence, but that's because most of those who say that are comfortable with being made to pledge and trust in the generic god their government forced on everyone in the mid 1950's. So a Christian is going to be happy with IGWT on his money. But suppose that said "In Allah We Trust"? Then how would you feel? Imagine in the US saying, "I pledge allegience.. one nation, under Allah... etc."

I'll bet Christians wouldn't like it at all-- they would feel they are being forced to pay homage to a god they don't worship. And to that, I would say "Exactly -- now how is that any different from an atheist having to pay homage to any god at all?" It isn't. And that is how the atheist feels--- forced to kowtow to a superstition he doesn't believe in.

The solution is really easy -- by constituional decree, no one is forced not to acknowledge their beliefs -- you wanna pray is school? Go ahead, pray-- you are allowed to do that. You want to say "one nation under God/Jesus/Allah/Beelzebub/Guiseppe/WingWang/Whomever" -- go ahead the government is not and can not stop you!

What you can't do is force everyone else to do it. You cannot hand the 10 commandments in a courtroom, with the first 3 rules about kowtowing to a specific god, and then say all people and all beliefs are equal in the site of the law-- they are only if they also embrace those tenets. Well, I can embrace not stealing and murdering and so on because it's the right thing to do for a peaceful society, but who are you to tell me I must have this one god and no other god before him? What if I prefer Vishnu?

And that is what the contention is about. The constitution forbids government from favoring one religion over another for the benefit of all religions and no religion.

 

[UltimateReality]

You made a typo. It is: in the year of our Lord. Lord is capitalized because it is in reverence to Christ dying on the cross for our sins.

No where did I state that the Constitution was a "Christian" document. I said that it was influenced by Christian faiths.

Hollie (the little chickenshit) wanted "a single" reference to Christianity, and was given one. Like you, denial, denial, denial, even though it is written in black and white, part of our documented history. I understand, you two find corruption so much more appealing than the Lord. I pray He will be merciful, and you will search for the Truth (notice the capitalization, that is in reference and reverence to Christ).

I'm sure I somehow missed your reference to christianity in the constitution. Please point me to that reference.

Hollie...have you been in the Capitol Rotunda? It's fascinating to look up and see, in the dome, George Washington as a god, wearing robes, in the clouds....interesting for a government to supposedly be influenced by christianity yet oodles upon oodles of pagan references in and around our main government buildings.

Yeah, and how about the baptism of Pocahontas?