YES, America CERTAINLY WAS FOUNDED as a CHRISTIAN NATION...

[logical4u]

Blah, blah, blah, almost all of which we agree with, but religious tests were excluded from the Constitutions.

Not all Founders were Christian, and not one of them would be comfortable in the Evangelical and Fundamentalist churches of our day.

This thread has been so convoluted by accusations, strawman arguments and Ad Hominem attacks that I think it bears repeating what [I think] the Christian posters are saying:

We believe in First Ammendment rights, and more specifically Freedom of Religion. We believe every American has the right to worship as they please or not at all. We believe all faiths should be free from persecution for their beliefs.

We believe the Constitution was written by Christian men or men who believed in God. We believe they were careful to prevent one denomination from being forced on the public by government, as was the case in England. We believe our heritage is steeped in a deep Christian faith. We believe the Pilgrims came here to advance the Christian Faith. We believe that Christian principles, including the long historical tradition Christianity flows from, were the basis for many of ideals and laws that were implemented in the new government. We believe America was a Christian nation at the onset, being made up mostly of persecuted Christians that had fled England.

We also believe the Founders never intended for God to be removed from the US Government. While they were sensitive not to show preference to one specific denomination or CHURCH, it was always their intent that God would be a part of government.

If any of the pro-Christian Nation folks disagree with this, feel free to chime in.

No one that believes this was and is a Christian nation is saying the Constitutuion is a "Christian" document. One person said their was "no" reference to the Christian God. That was false, there was "one".
Then the goal posts started moving, because those against Christianity do not deal in facts, they want "drama" and emotion. The baiting started.
Those that believe this nation is a "Christian" nation do not believe this nation needs, or wants a "Christian" "dictator". We just know that the "majority" of people here believe in the Lord, and pray to Him as their God.
It is the "petty", those that "hate" (according to the left, that is what someone does when they disagree with another, sarcasm alert) Christians that want to add things that have not been said, and trying to say that a "Christian" nation must mean an organized "Christian" religion.
Now you have a choice to join the dramatic, or agree with the fact that the FF were indeed Christians that designed the gov't so that "Christians" could worship according to their religions. It was an added bonus that the freedom of religion was beneficial to people of other faiths as well.

 

[logical4u]

Jefferson, Franklin, Allan, Paine, and at least dozen other weak Christians.

A list was already posted in thid thread.

You mean all two of them?

The discussion had nothing to do with determining the "strength" of the FFs' faith. You must be in with the drama crowd.

 

[logical4u]

A list was already posted in thid thread.

You mean the men that publicly said prayers and was documented here? You think that men that pray publicly, and call on the Almighty God are Deists and Atheists?

It's also clear that many of the FF's were clearly not christians and clearly had no intention of allowing a christian theocracy to develop.

I understand your need to attempt to force your gods into the constitution but that was expressly denied by the FF's.

I understand. You have no evidence to support your OPINION. Now you want to discuss a Christian "theocracy"? I believe that is the first time that was mentioned in this thread.

You are behaving like a child that has been told they are wrong, and it has been demonstrated that you are wrong. Instead of you considering why you are wrong, you start throwing out accusations that have little or nothing to do with the previous conversation.

Now please provide the evidence that the FF were of faiths other than Christanity, or put your pacifier back into your mouth.

 

[logical4u]

Jefferson's Wall of Separation Letter - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net


To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even those occasional performances of devotion, practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.




you can read what the founders intended in their own words

Sorry, I missed where that said this was not a Christian nation.

I saw where a formal religion would not be declared by the state, but nothing about not practicing Christianity, in fact it said that there should be no gov't pressure to prevent people from practicing Christianity.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The language of Jefferson, Franklin, Paine, and Allan were clearly not Christian.Three were clearly deists and Franklin was a polytheist. Washington, a weak Christian, refused to take communion after challenged to do so by his priest, and ever after walked in church garden on communion Sunday.

The DoI and Constitution are clearly not Christian documents, and no amount of whining will change that.

You mean the men that publicly said prayers and was documented here? You think that men that pray publicly, and call on the Almighty God are Deists and Atheists?

It's also clear that many of the FF's were clearly not christians and clearly had no intention of allowing a christian theocracy to develop.

I understand your need to attempt to force your gods into the constitution but that was expressly denied by the FF's.

I understand. You have no evidence to support your OPINION. Now you want to discuss a Christian "theocracy"? I believe that is the first time that was mentioned in this thread.

You are behaving like a child that has been told they are wrong, and it has been demonstrated that you are wrong. Instead of you considering why you are wrong, you start throwing out accusations that have little or nothing to do with the previous conversation.

Now please provide the evidence that the FF were of faiths other than Christanity, or put your pacifier back into your mouth.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Logical4u is now guilty of the sin of stubborn immorality.

The point is clearly that she is wrong now, has been wrong, and will continue to be wrong on this point.

Her posts can be now ignored.

Jefferson's Wall of Separation Letter - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net


To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even those occasional performances of devotion, practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.




you can read what the founders intended in their own words

Sorry, I missed where that said this was not a Christian nation.

I saw where a formal religion would not be declared by the state, but nothing about not practicing Christianity, in fact it said that there should be no gov't pressure to prevent people from practicing Christianity.

 

[rdean]

The white invaders of Indian lands introduced Christianity to those lands.
They had to murder a lot of the Indians to do so but I'm sure that, along with the rapes, murdering Indian children and so on, were entirely justified.

Was it "legitimate" rape?

 

[UltimateReality]

Off work now and dominating the thread again? How were things at the Depot today?

Logical4u is now guilty of the sin of stubborn immorality.

The point is clearly that she is wrong now, has been wrong, and will continue to be wrong on this point.

Her posts can be now ignored.

Jefferson's Wall of Separation Letter - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net


To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even those occasional performances of devotion, practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.




you can read what the founders intended in their own words

Sorry, I missed where that said this was not a Christian nation.

I saw where a formal religion would not be declared by the state, but nothing about not practicing Christianity, in fact it said that there should be no gov't pressure to prevent people from practicing Christianity.

 

[logical4u]

The language of Jefferson, Franklin, Paine, and Allan were clearly not Christian.Three were clearly deists and Franklin was a polytheist. Washington, a weak Christian, refused to take communion after challenged to do so by his priest, and ever after walked in church garden on communion Sunday.

The DoI and Constitution are clearly not Christian documents, and no amount of whining will change that.

It's also clear that many of the FF's were clearly not christians and clearly had no intention of allowing a christian theocracy to develop.

I understand your need to attempt to force your gods into the constitution but that was expressly denied by the FF's.

I understand. You have no evidence to support your OPINION. Now you want to discuss a Christian "theocracy"? I believe that is the first time that was mentioned in this thread.

You are behaving like a child that has been told they are wrong, and it has been demonstrated that you are wrong. Instead of you considering why you are wrong, you start throwing out accusations that have little or nothing to do with the previous conversation.

Now please provide the evidence that the FF were of faiths other than Christanity, or put your pacifier back into your mouth.

Benjamin's request for prayer:
The Constitutional Convention had been meeting for five weeks, and had hit a perilous deadlock. The large states were insisting that congressional representation be based on population; the smaller states wanted a one-state-one-vote rule. The entire effort to create a stronger union was in jeopardy. Eighty-one-year-old Benjamin Franklin, quiet during most of the deliberations, then addressed the group. According to James Madison's notes, here is what happened next.

Mr. President
The small progress we have made after 4 or five weeks close attendance & continual reasonings with each other-our different sentiments on almost every question, several of the last producing as many noes as ays, is methinks a melancholy proof of the imperfection of the Human Understanding. We indeed seem to feel our own want of political wisdom, since we have been running about in search of it. We have gone back to ancient history for models of Government, and examined the different forms of those Republics which having been formed with the seeds of their own dissolution now no longer exist. And we have viewed Modern States all round Europe, but find none of their Constitutions suitable to our circumstances.
http:/www.thenextright.com/proud2b4family/what-thomas-jefferson-actually-said]What Thomas Jefferson Actually Said | The Next Right[/url]


Thomas Paine - 01/16/1797
Thomas Paine concerned about the content of our current science courses? Definitely!

In a speech he delivered in Paris on January 16, 1797, Thomas Paine harshly criticized what the French were then teaching in their science classes-especially the philosophy they were using. Interestingly, that same science philosophy of which Thomas Paine was so critical is identical to that used in our public schools today. Paine's indictment of that philosophy is particularly significant in light of the fact that all historians today concede that Thomas Paine was one of the very least religious of our Founders. Yet, even Paine could not abide teaching science, which excluded God's work and hand in the creation of the world and of all scientific phenomena. Below is an excerpt from that speech.

(While Benjamin Franklin was serving in London as diplomat from the Colonies to the King, Franklin met Englishman Thomas Paine (born 1737, died 1809). Franklin arranged for him to move to America in 1774 and helped set him up in the printing business. In 1776, Paine wrote Common Sense, which helped fuel the separation of America from Great Britain. He then served as a soldier in the American Revolution. He returned to England in 1787, and then went to France in 1792 as a supporter of the French Revolution. In 1794, he published his Age of Reason, the deistic work, which brought him much criticism from his former American friends. Upon his return to America in 1802, he found no welcome and eventually died as an outcast.)

Ethan Allen on God, Reason, Prayer, & Religion

It appears you were wrong about these men. Do you have any Hindus or Buddahists?

Edited per board copyright rules

 

[JakeStarkey]

UltimateLoser really did not like getting batoned down yesterday for being a hypocrite, an ad hommer, being very poor at intimidation, and just being generally wrong.

If he tried his bad cop approach on our police force, he would not have been here long.

We are going to enjoy his presence here for we now know he is here to entertain us, only here for grins and chuckles.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Among all of the stuff she posted, she included this:

"Like Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen might be best described as a Progressive Christian Deist who believed reason must take a paramount place in religious activity.

Although I would rather identify Franklin as a polytheist who believed in demi-urges, I must admit the above is the closest that logical4u has gotten to the truth.

She did leave out Paine in this group, which is mistake.

The point remains the Founders did not create a religious nation, only a secular government dedicated to keeping organized religion out of government.

Very wisely so, as we consider l4u's convolutions on the subject.

 

[Hollie]

You mean the men that publicly said prayers and was documented here? You think that men that pray publicly, and call on the Almighty God are Deists and Atheists?

It's also clear that many of the FF's were clearly not christians and clearly had no intention of allowing a christian theocracy to develop.

I understand your need to attempt to force your gods into the constitution but that was expressly denied by the FF's.

I understand. You have no evidence to support your OPINION. Now you want to discuss a Christian "theocracy"? I believe that is the first time that was mentioned in this thread.

You are behaving like a child that has been told they are wrong, and it has been demonstrated that you are wrong. Instead of you considering why you are wrong, you start throwing out accusations that have little or nothing to do with the previous conversation.

Now please provide the evidence that the FF were of faiths other than Christanity, or put your pacifier back into your mouth.

Religion of the Founding Fathers of America

You are under the misapprehension that your assertion to the Christian faith of the FF’s is the final arbiter. It's not that simple and it's your problem you don't realize that. The final arbiter is evidence, and I see nothing in your comments except ballyhoo and blowhard— for which you have apparently decided to be the posterchild.

If you review the link above, you will find identification of the religious beliefs of those generally considerd to be the FF’s of the U.S.

 

[Hollie]

It appears you were wrong about these men. Do you have any Hindus or Buddahists?

You need to review your claims for authenticity. With regard to Thomas Jefferson, the Jefferson letters make it very clear that he had a simple belief: a Creator created and that's the extent of any involvement with humanity. The the Jefferson Bible ends with Jesus being crucified --- and not rising from the dead.

Belief in the resurrection of Jesus is a fundamental component of christianity. To suggest that Thomas Jefferson was a christian is more than just a bit of a stretch.

 

[Hollie]

Thomas Paine - 01/16/1797
Thomas Paine concerned about the content of our current science courses? Definitely!

In a speech he delivered in Paris on January 16, 1797, Thomas Paine harshly criticized what the French were then teaching in their science classes-especially the philosophy they were using. Interestingly, that same science philosophy of which Thomas Paine was so critical is identical to that used in our public schools today. Paine's indictment of that philosophy is particularly significant in light of the fact that all historians today concede that Thomas Paine was one of the very least religious of our Founders. Yet, even Paine could not abide teaching science, which excluded God's work and hand in the creation of the world and of all scientific phenomena. Below is an excerpt from that speech.

Before too many people read the thread, you may wish to quickly remove references to Thomas Paine as a christian.

Thomas Paine, whose writings spurred the entire Revolution, was absolutely not a Christian.

Paine, of whom it was said, "Without Paine's pen, Washington's sword would never have been wielded", was a thorough-going Deist who's "Age of Reason" deconstructed the bible completely.

 

[logical4u]

Among all of the stuff she posted, she included this:

"Like Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen might be best described as a Progressive Christian Deist who believed reason must take a paramount place in religious activity.

Although I would rather identify Franklin as a polytheist who believed in demi-urges, I must admit the above is the closest that logical4u has gotten to the truth.

She did leave out Paine in this group, which is mistake.

The point remains the Founders did not create a religious nation, only a secular government dedicated to keeping organized religion out of government.

Very wisely so, as we consider l4u's convolutions on the subject.

I never said that the FF created a religious nation. I said that it was and is a Christian nation.
You were wrong about these men (Paine was included), and have failed to present any evidence showing that the FF were not Christian.

 

[logical4u]

It's also clear that many of the FF's were clearly not christians and clearly had no intention of allowing a christian theocracy to develop.

I understand your need to attempt to force your gods into the constitution but that was expressly denied by the FF's.

I understand. You have no evidence to support your OPINION. Now you want to discuss a Christian "theocracy"? I believe that is the first time that was mentioned in this thread.

You are behaving like a child that has been told they are wrong, and it has been demonstrated that you are wrong. Instead of you considering why you are wrong, you start throwing out accusations that have little or nothing to do with the previous conversation.

Now please provide the evidence that the FF were of faiths other than Christanity, or put your pacifier back into your mouth.

Religion of the Founding Fathers of America

You are under the misapprehension that your assertion to the Christian faith of the FF’s is the final arbiter. It's not that simple and it's your problem you don't realize that. The final arbiter is evidence, and I see nothing in your comments except ballyhoo and blowhard— for which you have apparently decided to be the posterchild.

If you review the link above, you will find identification of the religious beliefs of those generally considerd to be the FF’s of the U.S.

Talk about blowhards....
The drama queens wanted to spout their opinion that the FFs were not Christian. I asked for evidence. I got opinions. When I provided evidence that clearly demonstrates the FFs they claimed were not Christian, prayed, and supported the Christian faith, you want to go off on another tangent?

I am still, STILL waiting for you to back up anything you said about this not being a Christian nation. Guess those "emotions" are hard to present as facts.

 

[Peach]

The OP doesn't know US history from antihistamines; most of the Founders believed in a higher power, almost all despised organized religion. See: CHURCH OF ENGLAND.

 

[logical4u]

It appears you were wrong about these men. Do you have any Hindus or Buddahists?

You need to review your claims for authenticity. With regard to Thomas Jefferson, the Jefferson letters make it very clear that he had a simple belief: a Creator created and that's the extent of any involvement with humanity. The the Jefferson Bible ends with Jesus being crucified --- and not rising from the dead.

Belief in the resurrection of Jesus is a fundamental component of christianity. To suggest that Thomas Jefferson was a christian is more than just a bit of a stretch.

Did Jefferson finish "his Bible"? Was it a study guide to help him learn, the Bible? Did he end it there because, at that point, he felt his understanding was better?

He did believe in Yeshua, and his prayers indicated that he wished other people would also honor and worship Yeshua.

We write letters to persuade. The letters Jefferson wrote that you think proves he was not a Christian were clearly targeting a person that he did not feel comfortable having deep discussions about personal spiritual beliefs.

Would you please list my "claims for authenticity". I do not remember making any such claims.

 

[logical4u]

Thomas Paine - 01/16/1797
Thomas Paine concerned about the content of our current science courses? Definitely!

In a speech he delivered in Paris on January 16, 1797, Thomas Paine harshly criticized what the French were then teaching in their science classes-especially the philosophy they were using. Interestingly, that same science philosophy of which Thomas Paine was so critical is identical to that used in our public schools today. Paine's indictment of that philosophy is particularly significant in light of the fact that all historians today concede that Thomas Paine was one of the very least religious of our Founders. Yet, even Paine could not abide teaching science, which excluded God's work and hand in the creation of the world and of all scientific phenomena. Below is an excerpt from that speech.

Before too many people read the thread, you may wish to quickly remove references to Thomas Paine as a christian.

Thomas Paine, whose writings spurred the entire Revolution, was absolutely not a Christian.

Paine, of whom it was said, "Without Paine's pen, Washington's sword would never have been wielded", was a thorough-going Deist who's "Age of Reason" deconstructed the bible completely.

Please provide evidence of Paine stating that he was not a "believer" in the Lord. His "common sense" has references to the Lord, as well as crediting the Lord for His works.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You are moving the goal posts again, but that's OK. No one is question that we are generally a nation of Christians, but you are wrong when you insist we are not a secular nation, which we are.

Your own posting below proves that she provided the necessary proof that not all our Founders were Christian.

The OP is fail and we can all move along.

As long as

Among all of the stuff she posted, she included this:

"Like Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen might be best described as a Progressive Christian Deist who believed reason must take a paramount place in religious activity.

Although I would rather identify Franklin as a polytheist who believed in demi-urges, I must admit the above is the closest that logical4u has gotten to the truth.

She did leave out Paine in this group, which is mistake.

The point remains the Founders did not create a religious nation, only a secular government dedicated to keeping organized religion out of government.

Very wisely so, as we consider l4u's convolutions on the subject.

I never said that the FF created a religious nation. I said that it was and is a Christian nation.
You were wrong about these men (Paine was included), and have failed to present any evidence showing that the FF were not Christian.