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It appears you were wrong about these men. Do you have any Hindus or Buddahists?
You need to review your claims for authenticity. With regard to Thomas Jefferson, the Jefferson letters make it very clear that he had a simple belief: a Creator created and that's the extent of any involvement with humanity. The the Jefferson Bible ends with Jesus being crucified --- and not rising from the dead.
Belief in the resurrection of Jesus is a fundamental component of christianity. To suggest that Thomas Jefferson was a christian is more than just a bit of a stretch.
Did Jefferson finish "his Bible"? Was it a study guide to help him learn, the Bible? Did he end it there because, at that point, he felt his understanding was better?
He did believe in Yeshua, and his prayers indicated that he wished other people would also honor and worship Yeshua.
We write letters to persuade. The letters Jefferson wrote that you think proves he was not a Christian were clearly targeting a person that he did not feel comfortable having deep discussions about personal spiritual beliefs.
Would you please list my "claims for authenticity". I do not remember making any such claims.
I understand. You have no evidence to support your OPINION. Now you want to discuss a Christian "theocracy"? I believe that is the first time that was mentioned in this thread.
You are behaving like a child that has been told they are wrong, and it has been demonstrated that you are wrong. Instead of you considering why you are wrong, you start throwing out accusations that have little or nothing to do with the previous conversation.
Now please provide the evidence that the FF were of faiths other than Christanity, or put your pacifier back into your mouth.
Religion of the Founding Fathers of America
You are under the misapprehension that your assertion to the Christian faith of the FFs is the final arbiter. It's not that simple and it's your problem you don't realize that. The final arbiter is evidence, and I see nothing in your comments except ballyhoo and blowhard for which you have apparently decided to be the posterchild.
If you review the link above, you will find identification of the religious beliefs of those generally considerd to be the FFs of the U.S.
Talk about blowhards....
The drama queens wanted to spout their opinion that the FFs were not Christian. I asked for evidence. I got opinions. When I provided evidence that clearly demonstrates the FFs they claimed were not Christian, prayed, and supported the Christian faith, you want to go off on another tangent?
I am still, STILL waiting for you to back up anything you said about this not being a Christian nation. Guess those "emotions" are hard to present as facts.
Thomas Paine - 01/16/1797
Thomas Paine concerned about the content of our current science courses? Definitely!
In a speech he delivered in Paris on January 16, 1797, Thomas Paine harshly criticized what the French were then teaching in their science classes-especially the philosophy they were using. Interestingly, that same science philosophy of which Thomas Paine was so critical is identical to that used in our public schools today. Paine's indictment of that philosophy is particularly significant in light of the fact that all historians today concede that Thomas Paine was one of the very least religious of our Founders. Yet, even Paine could not abide teaching science, which excluded God's work and hand in the creation of the world and of all scientific phenomena. Below is an excerpt from that speech.
Before too many people read the thread, you may wish to quickly remove references to Thomas Paine as a christian.
Thomas Paine, whose writings spurred the entire Revolution, was absolutely not a Christian.
Paine, of whom it was said, "Without Paine's pen, Washington's sword would never have been wielded", was a thorough-going Deist who's "Age of Reason" deconstructed the bible completely.
Please provide evidence of Paine stating that he was not a "believer" in the Lord. His "common sense" has references to the Lord, as well as crediting the Lord for His works.
You need to review your claims for authenticity. With regard to Thomas Jefferson, the Jefferson letters make it very clear that he had a simple belief: a Creator created and that's the extent of any involvement with humanity. The the Jefferson Bible ends with Jesus being crucified --- and not rising from the dead.
Belief in the resurrection of Jesus is a fundamental component of christianity. To suggest that Thomas Jefferson was a christian is more than just a bit of a stretch.
Provide evidence that was the case.Did Jefferson finish "his Bible"? Was it a study guide to help him learn, the Bible? Did he end it there because, at that point, he felt his understanding was better?
Provide evidence for such a claim.He did believe in Yeshua, and his prayers indicated that he wished other people would also honor and worship Yeshua.
Provide evidence for that claim.We write letters to persuade. The letters Jefferson wrote that you think proves he was not a Christian were clearly targeting a person that he did not feel comfortable having deep discussions about personal spiritual beliefs.
See above.Would you please list my "claims for authenticity". I do not remember making any such claims.
Hollie, our buddy logical4u cannot provide any solid evidence for any of her claims of Paine, Jefferson, Franklin, and Allan as anything other than non-Christians. Since she can't do it, she yells at you to deflect.
Religion of the Founding Fathers of America
You are under the misapprehension that your assertion to the Christian faith of the FFs is the final arbiter. It's not that simple and it's your problem you don't realize that. The final arbiter is evidence, and I see nothing in your comments except ballyhoo and blowhard for which you have apparently decided to be the posterchild.
If you review the link above, you will find identification of the religious beliefs of those generally considerd to be the FFs of the U.S.
Talk about blowhards....
The drama queens wanted to spout their opinion that the FFs were not Christian. I asked for evidence. I got opinions. When I provided evidence that clearly demonstrates the FFs they claimed were not Christian, prayed, and supported the Christian faith, you want to go off on another tangent?
I am still, STILL waiting for you to back up anything you said about this not being a Christian nation. Guess those "emotions" are hard to present as facts.
You have a rather strange need to define the U.S. as a Christian nation. The link I provided you depicts the FFs as an amalgam of mainstream Christians with many others embracing some rather fringe sects of Christianity. Like many fundies, you have a need to force your religion on those (the FFs ), who chose a specific course of action in drafting the constitution to prevent Christianity or any religion from interfering in the lives of those who were not of the majority religion.
You do come across as a stereotypical bible thumper. Why dont you define for us the specific requirements for a Christian nation? You insist that the U.S. is such a thing but you dont define your terms with anything other than because I say so.
Facts are not difficult to present. There's just a loud background din of thumping.
The point remains the Founders did not create a religious nation, only a secular government dedicated to keeping organized religion out of government.
Hollie, great quotes on the "christian" Thomas Paine (yeah, I am having fun at logical4u's expense).
Christian fundies do have a need to force their beliefs on others. That's why college professors have to straighten out the home and parochial schooled. I am told the professors generally win out over the silliness taught by some parents. As if evolution could ever be a salvation issue!
I am so thankful the FFs created a nation in which church and state are separated, while each of us are allowed to believe as we wish, and to be informed by those beliefs in how we conduct ourselves as political beings in the functioning of the secular government.
The fundies worry too much about what others think.
I have found it interesting to see how much power they have lost in the last eight years. The recent Rep Akin's affair and the GOP party plank on abortion (none at all) have infuriated the women in my southern town. They are saying, a good solid minority of them, they will vote Dem for the first time in their lives or not vote at all. If that is true in the swing states, my GOP is going to get beat very badly in November. A month ago I thought Romney would win. I don't know if it is possible now at all.
I understand. You have no evidence to support your OPINION. Now you want to discuss a Christian "theocracy"? I believe that is the first time that was mentioned in this thread.
You are behaving like a child that has been told they are wrong, and it has been demonstrated that you are wrong. Instead of you considering why you are wrong, you start throwing out accusations that have little or nothing to do with the previous conversation.
Now please provide the evidence that the FF were of faiths other than Christanity, or put your pacifier back into your mouth.
Religion of the Founding Fathers of America
You are under the misapprehension that your assertion to the Christian faith of the FFs is the final arbiter. It's not that simple and it's your problem you don't realize that. The final arbiter is evidence, and I see nothing in your comments except ballyhoo and blowhard for which you have apparently decided to be the posterchild.
If you review the link above, you will find identification of the religious beliefs of those generally considerd to be the FFs of the U.S.
Talk about blowhards....
The drama queens wanted to spout their opinion that the FFs were not Christian. I asked for evidence. I got opinions. When I provided evidence that clearly demonstrates the FFs they claimed were not Christian, prayed, and supported the Christian faith, you want to go off on another tangent?
I am still, STILL waiting for you to back up anything you said about this not being a Christian nation. Guess those "emotions" are hard to present as facts.
Religion of the Founding Fathers of America
You are under the misapprehension that your assertion to the Christian faith of the FFs is the final arbiter. It's not that simple and it's your problem you don't realize that. The final arbiter is evidence, and I see nothing in your comments except ballyhoo and blowhard for which you have apparently decided to be the posterchild.
If you review the link above, you will find identification of the religious beliefs of those generally considerd to be the FFs of the U.S.
Talk about blowhards....
The drama queens wanted to spout their opinion that the FFs were not Christian. I asked for evidence. I got opinions. When I provided evidence that clearly demonstrates the FFs they claimed were not Christian, prayed, and supported the Christian faith, you want to go off on another tangent?
I am still, STILL waiting for you to back up anything you said about this not being a Christian nation. Guess those "emotions" are hard to present as facts.
You will be waiting a long time for Hollie. Hollie could present a logical argument if his life depended on it. He gets the award for most frustrating responses. Hollie never stays on topic and his responses typical aren't even relevant to the post he is responding to. Then he just trails off with some Christian attack diatribe and your left totally confused at how someone could use so many words to say absolutely nothing.
Adams on Religion
John Adams, a self-confessed "church going animal," grew up in the Congregational Church in Braintree, Massachusetts. By the time he wrote this letter his theological position can best be described as Unitarian. In this letter Adams tells Jefferson that "Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell."
George Washington, Episcopal Vestryman
Washington was for many years a vestryman at Truro Parish, his local Episcopal Church. The entry of June 5, 1772, shows Washington and his neighbor, George Mason, the author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights, engaged in parish business, including making arrangements for replacing the front steps of the church, painting its roof and selling church pews to the members as a means of obtaining revenue. The minutes of the meeting also reveal that Washington and George William Fairfax presented the parish with gold leaf to be used to gild letters on "Carved Ornaments" on the altar.
The point remains the Founders did not create a religious nation, only a secular government dedicated to keeping organized religion out of government.
Ah yes, and now we get even closer to the truth.
George Washington, Episcopal Vestryman
Washington was for many years a vestryman at Truro Parish, his local Episcopal Church. The entry of June 5, 1772, shows Washington and his neighbor, George Mason, the author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights, engaged in parish business, including making arrangements for replacing the front steps of the church, painting its roof and selling church pews to the members as a means of obtaining revenue. The minutes of the meeting also reveal that Washington and George William Fairfax presented the parish with gold leaf to be used to gild letters on "Carved Ornaments" on the altar.
