A question for the pro-abortion aka pro-choice crowd

[Ropey]

As long as the babies that are killed are babies of the enemy, pro-war folks have no problem.

Actually this is another illustration, along with the exception made for rape, that shows most (but not all) anti-abortion advocates are actually not pro-life but rather anti-women's-equality.

The exceptions -- those anti-abortion advocates who genuinely are concerned about the life of the unborn -- are usually also anti-war and anti-capital-punishment. That's another way you can usually tell who you're talking to.

I can see being pro death penalty, because that isn't innocent life.

But if someone views an early term fetus as the same as a born baby, I still can't wrap my head around how someone could be approving of war while at the same time being pro-life.

It's not the same in the same way a baby is not the same as a ten year old.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Yes, they are both human just as apples and oranges are both fruit.

The fetus is a growing human in the womb. A born babe is about as close to that fetus as you are going to get.

Pro life is kind of like saying, let the baby get old enough and wise enough to make their own decisions on what to do rather than to take that decision away. That way if the mother takes the decision away it is unlawful since the baby never had a chance to make a choice whether to live or die. Free will and all that.

Approving of war is not approving of the death war causes. Just like approving of the right to bear arms does not mean one has to use them.

It depends on the events leading up to the war or death of a fetus/newborn.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Actually this is another illustration, along with the exception made for rape, that shows most (but not all) anti-abortion advocates are actually not pro-life but rather anti-women's-equality.

The exceptions -- those anti-abortion advocates who genuinely are concerned about the life of the unborn -- are usually also anti-war and anti-capital-punishment. That's another way you can usually tell who you're talking to.

I can see being pro death penalty, because that isn't innocent life.

But if someone views an early term fetus as the same as a born baby, I still can't wrap my head around how someone could be approving of war while at the same time being pro-life.

It's not the same in the same way a baby is not the same as a ten year old.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Yes, they are both human just as apples and oranges are both fruit.

The fetus is a growing human in the womb. A born babe is about as close to that fetus as you are going to get.

Pro life is kind of like saying, let the baby get old enough and wise enough to make their own decisions on what to do rather than to take that decision away. That way if the mother takes the decision away it is unlawful since the baby never had a chance to make a choice whether to live or die. Free will and all that.

Approving of war is not approving of the death war causes. Just like approving of the right to bear arms does not mean one has to use them.

It depends on the events leading up to the war or death of a fetus/newborn.

The war death causes is a fundamental aspect of war, it's a part of it, the biggest part of it.

The bolded above could be used against someone who favors a war, a baby dying in a war never gets those chances.

 

[Dragon]

But if someone views an early term fetus as the same as a born baby, I still can't wrap my head around how someone could be approving of war while at the same time being pro-life.

Well, in that case "pro-life" is a misnomer; what they are is anti-gender-equality and re-outlawing abortion is a means to putting women back into the barefoot-and-pregnant category.

Same with an exception made for rape. If you really, truly believe that abortion is murder, then making an exception for rape doesn't make any sense. It's punishing an innocent (the fetus) for someone else's crime (the rape committed by its father). Yes, making the mother go through pregnancy and deliver the child of her rapist is not a good thing, but murder is a worse one, so anyone who really believes that abortion is murder will not make this exception.

But, if the real goal is not to save potential babies but to put women back into a subordinate position, or to punish "sluts" for their misbehavior, then an exception for rape makes perfect sense. If she was raped, the woman isn't a "slut," she's a victim.

The great majority of anti-abortion advocates fall into this category. It's not really about the unborn, that's a deception (in fairness, many of them are I believe deceiving themselves, not deliberately deceiving others). It's about a backlash against feminism.

 

[JohnA]

Actually this is another illustration, along with the exception made for rape, that shows most (but not all) anti-abortion advocates are actually not pro-life but rather anti-women's-equality.

The exceptions -- those anti-abortion advocates who genuinely are concerned about the life of the unborn -- are usually also anti-war and anti-capital-punishment. That's another way you can usually tell who you're talking to.

I can see being pro death penalty, because that isn't innocent life.

But if someone views an early term fetus as the same as a born baby, I still can't wrap my head around how someone could be approving of war while at the same time being pro-life.

Either all life is sacred or it's not. You forget that innocent people have been executed.

there is NO prove( beyond a reasonable doubt ) that innocent people have been executed , a lot of anti DP advocates are trying to make a case for it .
talking of war wasnt vietnam a democrat war ?
and the bay of pigs more lives lost under democratic leadership
seems BOTH parties at sometime oR other are responsible for the killing of innocent lives .
and cant point a finger

 

[Dragon]

there is NO prove( beyond a reasonable doubt ) that innocent people have been executed

This is absurd. Our courts are not infallible, and there is no doubt at all in the mind of any reasonable person that some innocent people have been punished for all crimes without exception, just as no reasonable person doubts that some guilty people have been found not guilty. Considering the number of people who are, in any given year, found not guilty and so NOT executed, can you really, seriously, and with a straight face insist that nobody has ever been executed falsely?

talking of war wasnt vietnam a democrat war ?

Who gives a rat's ass? Are you under the delusion that this discussion is partisan? Can you conceive of a political, ideological discussion that wouldn't be?

 

[JohnA]

once again i abject to the questions as posted by the OP\
there are ONLY TWO SIDES in this matter
PROLIFE
PROCHOICE
No such thing as pro abortion

PROLIFE
MEANS ALL LIFE IS SACRED FROM THE MOMENT OF CONCEPTION
PROCHOICE
MEANS HAVING A CHOICE AS TO WHETHER TO
( 1 ) BIRTH
( 2 ) ADOPTION
( 3 ) OR ABORT
THE CHILD

there are many prochoice advocated who when faced with a choice ***CHOOSE **to birth
prolife advocates DONT have a choice

big differance GET IT NOW

 

[koshergrl]

Of course there's such a thing as pro-abortion.

People who think it's okay are pro-abortion. There are only two sides, you're either for abortion, or you're against it.

incidentally, I think what the pro-abortionists are getting at when they keep carping on war as if it's relevant: If war is relevant to abortion, then it must be that the pro-abortionists are also pro-war. After all, they're into killing babies, and according to them, that's all war is...so of course it follows. Right? At least according to their logic.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Of course there's such a thing as pro-abortion.

People who think it's okay are pro-abortion. There are only two sides, you're either for abortion, or you're against it.

incidentally, I think what the pro-abortionists are getting at when they keep carping on war as if it's relevant: If war is relevant to abortion, then it must be that the pro-abortionists are also pro-war. After all, they're into killing babies, and according to them, that's all war is...so of course it follows. Right? At least according to their logic.

No one has said anything remotely like all war is is killing babies.

Have you ever NOT twisted someone's words to better fit your pre thought out agenda?

 

[koshergrl]

The argument is made (ad nauseum) that if you are anti-abortion, you're a hypocrite if you support war.

My point is that if that's true, then those who are pro-abortion must be pro-war as well.

I can't believe I had to explain that to you. Again. You are rather dim, aren't you?

 

[Dragon]

Of course there's such a thing as pro-abortion.

People who think it's okay are pro-abortion.

No. Someone who was "pro-abortion" would be someone who thought that abortion was a good thing, and that women ought to have them. (Note that there's a difference between "ought to have them" and "ought to be able to have them.")

I suppose it's possible that some people out there are actually pro-abortion, but I've never met anyone who was, and I doubt you have, either.

There are only two sides, you're either for abortion, or you're against it.

Again, no. Nobody is for abortion, even if they're for having it be legal. That's sort of like saying someone is "pro-root-canal." I'd rather have a root canal than die of blood poisoning from an untreated tooth infection, but my real preference is not to do either. Similarly, if I were a woman with an unwanted pregnancy, I would rather have an abortion than be stuck with a child I could not support, but again, my real preference would be to do neither.

Abortion is a remedy for a bad situation. That's all.

I think what the pro-abortionists are getting at when they keep carping on war as if it's relevant: If war is relevant to abortion, then it must be that the pro-abortionists are also pro-war.

Ffft. That's too irrational even for you to believe in. Let me see if I can break it down for you.

Abortion (according to you) kills people.

War (according to anyone with half a brain) kills people.

If you oppose abortion on the grounds that it kills people, and you say you do, then logically you must also oppose war, because war does the same thing.

And of course, there are anti-abortion advocates out there who do oppose war and also oppose the death penalty. Those are the honest ones, the ones whose anti-abortion advocacy actually comes from concern for the unborn, who really ARE pro-life.

Those who oppose abortion rights without opposing war are not pro-life. They are anti-gender-equality, and the pro-life stance is merely a pretense and a veneer.

 

[logical4u]

Irrelevant, straw man. One has nothing to do with the other.

It is if you consider an early term fetus to be a baby.


Babies killed in war to a lot of pro-lifers, you essentially get a shoulder shrug.

"Babies killed" in abortion, you get hyperventilating and emotional freak outs.



Why is this the case? Partisan politics and ppl needing an excuse to tell everyone they're holier than thou.

Do American soldiers (we don't want to ask about the muslim extremist soldiers) go out of their way to "target" children in war?

I think we can all agree, the answer is NO!

When an abortion is performed, is a child that has not had the chance at life, "targeted"?

I think we can all agree, the answer is YES!

But by all means, go ahead and pretend the situations are identical ......

 

[logical4u]

Well I guess we live in 2 different realities.

There's plenty of party line voting republicans who can't get enough of war and put their fingers in their ears when it comes to the number of innocent people (babies included) our wars kill, then pretend to be passionate pro-lifers on the abortion issue.Don't worry the democrats are just as hypocritical on other issues. Pretending to take science seriously when talking about evolution, but ignoring science when it comes to man made global warming, or pretending to care about torture and then cheer when Qaddafi dies a slow painful death. But abortion is the issue of this thread.

Would you care to put up a link or two that would demonstrate what you're talking about? Where a 'republican' can't get 'enough of war' and disregards or applauds when innocent people or children are killed?

And I note that we're now talking about 'republicans' instead of the majority of the country who happen to be pro-life.

By "pro-life", you mean "pro-fetal life". Plenty of so-called "pro-lifers" have no problem with murdering abortion doctors or going to war or state sponsored execution.

Look at Rick Perry for example. Anti-abortion and execution enthusiast.

The majority of the country continue to be pro-choice.

Please list the numbers of abortion doctors that have been murdered. Then compare that number to the number of abortions that have been performed (millions). More abortion doctors have butchered women that had abortions (and left them to die) than abortion doctors have been killed by a "few" wackos (otherwise those pro-lifers that cling to their Bibles, and guns are really, really bad shots). I will be waiting for you "unexaggerated" response.

 

[logical4u]

Excuse me, war has nothing to do with abortion.

It's just the typical red herring bs that pro-abortionists throw out there to hide the fact that they're ok with killing babies.

Lol I can't believe you can't see this.

WANTING MORE WAR SHOWS SOMEONE HAS NO ISSUE WITH BABIES BEING KILLED IN THE WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Read this out loud and tell me it doesn't sound absolutely crazy.

"I'm pro-life, I also want a war to happen where hundreds of thousands of lives are ended."

Did you just say that you want to be a slave, and that you are not interested in having freedom or liberty? Read: I will not defend what I own, my way of life or even my life, if someone is more violent than me, I will just do what they say and hope they let me live in servitude for the rest of my life!

 

[logical4u]

As long as the babies that are killed are babies of the enemy, pro-war folks have no problem.

Actually this is another illustration, along with the exception made for rape, that shows most (but not all) anti-abortion advocates are actually not pro-life but rather anti-women's-equality.

The exceptions -- those anti-abortion advocates who genuinely are concerned about the life of the unborn -- are usually also anti-war and anti-capital-punishment. That's another way you can usually tell who you're talking to.

Well by all means, let's make everybody "equal". Neuter every person as a child, no sperm, no functioning ovaries. If a person is born blind, then blind every person they come in contact (after all, let's all be "equal"). If a person is good at sports, cut their tendons, or break their bones, we cannot have anyone that is exceptional at anything. If they have a great mind, put them on drugs to prohibit them from thinking in an advanced way. IDIOTS!

 

[logical4u]

But if someone views an early term fetus as the same as a born baby, I still can't wrap my head around how someone could be approving of war while at the same time being pro-life.

Well, in that case "pro-life" is a misnomer; what they are is anti-gender-equality and re-outlawing abortion is a means to putting women back into the barefoot-and-pregnant category.

Same with an exception made for rape. If you really, truly believe that abortion is murder, then making an exception for rape doesn't make any sense. It's punishing an innocent (the fetus) for someone else's crime (the rape committed by its father). Yes, making the mother go through pregnancy and deliver the child of her rapist is not a good thing, but murder is a worse one, so anyone who really believes that abortion is murder will not make this exception.


But, if the real goal is not to save potential babies but to put women back into a subordinate position, or to punish "sluts" for their misbehavior, then an exception for rape makes perfect sense. If she was raped, the woman isn't a "slut," she's a victim.

The great majority of anti-abortion advocates fall into this category. It's not really about the unborn, that's a deception (in fairness, many of them are I believe deceiving themselves, not deliberately deceiving others). It's about a backlash against feminism.

How many forms of birth control are available today? How many can you get at Planned Parenthood, free of charge (subsidizing immorality), especially if you tell them you don't want your parents to know? There are even forms of birth control that can be done with a calendar, and a thermometer. There are sprays, IUDs, pills, covers, etc, etc, etc. If a woman wants to participate in sex, there are many ways to avoid pregnancy (including surgical methods of stopping the eggs). Why do you insist that ONLY, by letting women murder their own children makes them "equal" with men? I know very few men that would choose to "murder" their own children.
Your arguement is extremely immature.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Excuse me, war has nothing to do with abortion.

It's just the typical red herring bs that pro-abortionists throw out there to hide the fact that they're ok with killing babies.

Lol I can't believe you can't see this.

WANTING MORE WAR SHOWS SOMEONE HAS NO ISSUE WITH BABIES BEING KILLED IN THE WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Read this out loud and tell me it doesn't sound absolutely crazy.

"I'm pro-life, I also want a war to happen where hundreds of thousands of lives are ended."

Did you just say that you want to be a slave, and that you are not interested in having freedom or liberty? Read: I will not defend what I own, my way of life or even my life, if someone is more violent than me, I will just do what they say and hope they let me live in servitude for the rest of my life!

No of course soldiers don't, doesn't change the end result which is dead babies. Which I've never heard one pro-Iraq War person voice the least bit of concern about.

 

[Newby]

Lol I can't believe you can't see this.

WANTING MORE WAR SHOWS SOMEONE HAS NO ISSUE WITH BABIES BEING KILLED IN THE WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Read this out loud and tell me it doesn't sound absolutely crazy.

"I'm pro-life, I also want a war to happen where hundreds of thousands of lives are ended."

Did you just say that you want to be a slave, and that you are not interested in having freedom or liberty? Read: I will not defend what I own, my way of life or even my life, if someone is more violent than me, I will just do what they say and hope they let me live in servitude for the rest of my life!

No of course soldiers don't, doesn't change the end result which is dead babies. Which I've never heard one pro-Iraq War person voice the least bit of concern about.

Your argument doesn't make any sense. How can you be anti-war and pro-abortion then? You're against killing human life in one, but okay with it in the other. It's a reciprocal relationship, can't go one way without going the other. Hypocrisy works both ways.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Did you just say that you want to be a slave, and that you are not interested in having freedom or liberty? Read: I will not defend what I own, my way of life or even my life, if someone is more violent than me, I will just do what they say and hope they let me live in servitude for the rest of my life!

No of course soldiers don't, doesn't change the end result which is dead babies. Which I've never heard one pro-Iraq War person voice the least bit of concern about.

Your argument doesn't make any sense. How can you be anti-war and pro-abortion then? You're against killing human life in one, but okay with it in the other. It's a reciprocal relationship, can't go one way without going the other. Hypocrisy works both ways.

Because, like i said 100 pages ago and have repeated ad nauseum, I don't view the fetus as human life until a certain point. I agree with the vast majority of americans that abortions should be legal in some instances and I agree with the law.

 

[Newby]

No of course soldiers don't, doesn't change the end result which is dead babies. Which I've never heard one pro-Iraq War person voice the least bit of concern about.

Your argument doesn't make any sense. How can you be anti-war and pro-abortion then? You're against killing human life in one, but okay with it in the other. It's a reciprocal relationship, can't go one way without going the other. Hypocrisy works both ways.

Because, like i said 100 pages ago and have repeated ad nauseum, I don't view the fetus as human life until a certain point. I agree with the vast majority of americans that abortions should be legal in some instances and I agree with the law.

So, what is it if it isn't human life? As has been argued ad nauseum, it's an early stage of human life, but it's still human life. If it's not human life, then there's no reason to abort it, since a human wouldn't result, right?

It's a convenient cliche for you to use, if you value human life, then you wouldn't agree that abortion should be a choice. You're a hypocrit.

 

[koshergrl]

All pro-abortionists are hypocrites, and all of them are okay with killing innocents..."under the right circumstances". The *right* circumstances exist when a life is inconvenient to them, or when they think it has no value.

And they think the children of poor, black women have no value. That's the long and short of it.