Agree or not: The rich benefit the most from tax money?

[Jarhead]

In what state of the USA are people starving to death?

None, thanks to federal food stamp programs, etc.

And I believe that without food stamp progrmas, each community would have more donation programs.

Why do I believe this?

Becuase no one held a gun to our heads as we, Americans, donated more to the tsunami victims than all other countries combined. And that does NOT include the forced donations our government made for us using tax dollars.

Maybe if the government stopped donating our money for us, we would all donate more individually?

Not maybe. I am sure of it. We are Americans. We are proud. We are caring. We are a giving people.

We dont need governemtn to do it for us. They have us all wrong. They are clueless.

 

[Vast LWC]

There are 3 main places where our tax money goes

1 social security
2 military
3 foreign aid.

So no, the rich do not even come close to benefitting the most from taxes.

1. Social Security payroll taxes are capped at a salary level a little over 100 K, So a person making 100K a year pays 6% of their salary to SS, while a person making 1 million a year pays 0.6% of their salary.

And the rich get social security benefits too.

2. The rich benefit far more than the average citizen from the military, as it used a majority of the time to protect overseas corporate interests.

3. Foreign Aid is not even close to the top of the chart.

As you can see, the entire "Department of State and International Programs" category takes up 2% of the budget.

*Edit: Note that the chart above does not include Social Security.

 

[Vast LWC]

In what state of the USA are people starving to death?

None, thanks to federal food stamp programs, etc.

And I believe that without food stamp progrmas, each community would have more donation programs.

Why do I believe this?

Becuase no one held a gun to our heads as we, Americans, donated more to the tsunami victims than all other countries combined. And that does NOT include the forced donations our government made for us using tax dollars.

Maybe if the government stopped donating our money for us, we would all donate more individually?

Not maybe. I am sure of it. We are Americans. We are proud. We are caring. We are a giving people.

We dont need governemtn to do it for us. They have us all wrong. They are clueless.

Yeah, I know that post I made was a bit of a simplistic, smarmy answer. Bad Vast!

We all agree that charity needs to take place and probably will take place in one form or another no matter what, we just disagree on it's means of transportation to those who need it.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Why is it that when we talk about poor people, we hear all these desperately sad, individual stories of struggle and shit, and when we talk about the 'rich', it is fine to lump them into one large borglike structure sucking the blood out of the hardworking poor.

What total, utter crap.

And when did I say that, exactly?

Just because I think that one's contribution to one's society should be proportional to what they take from society, how does that translate into, "the rich are all evil"?

I have never made any blanket statement of the sort.

So, then you advocate putting welfare and unemployment recipients on some kind of "workfare"? Whaqt about the 50% paying no income taxes, what should they be doing since it is obvious their taking/contributing is way out of whack?

 

[Vast LWC]

So, then you advocate putting welfare and unemployment recipients on some kind of "workfare"?

Yes, yes I do. But didn't this already happen in 1996? I liked the idea back then.

Though I would make an exception for single mothers. They're already doing a full-time job.

What about the 50% paying no income taxes, what should they be doing since it is obvious their taking/contributing is way out of whack?

They are paying payroll taxes, which, as discussed, are proportionately smaller the more you make above 100K.

Also, I've seen this figure batted around a whole lot lately, I assume people are talking about THIS year, and not other years, due to all the stimulus.

 

[Foxfyre]

Why is it that when we talk about poor people, we hear all these desperately sad, individual stories of struggle and shit, and when we talk about the 'rich', it is fine to lump them into one large borglike structure sucking the blood out of the hardworking poor.

What total, utter crap.

And when did I say that, exactly?

Just because I think that one's contribution to one's society should be proportional to what they take from society, how does that translate into, "the rich are all evil"?

I have never made any blanket statement of the sort.

I didn't accuse you of having made such a blanket statement. It was a comment on the back of yours.

People tend to talk about the 'rich' as though the rich do not deserve wealth. They assume all wealthy people are selfish, uncaring and achieve wealth on the backs of poor people. This crap is repeated time and time again - certainly the OP has commented on such. My point.... 'rich' people are people - just like 'poor' people are people. We should treat people as individuals. When the healthcare debate was raging, we saw lots and lots of sad stories about individuals let down by the system. Well, there are also vast numbers of people whose lives were saved by that same system. It is the same with the constant debate about the inequality of 'rich' and 'poor'. I feel no need to apologize for coming from a 'wealthy' background. I'm not ashamed of the blood, sweat and tears of my parents. They have sacrificed and worked hard and because of that, they are what most people would deem 'wealthy'. But, instead of respecting someone like my dad for achieving the 'American Dream', apparently some people think he should pay for the rest of you.

On the other hand, I know exactly what it feels like to be poor as a kid. And I know wht it feels like as an adult to have no money in hand, no money in the bank, and little or no food in the house. I know what it means to have bill collectors calling at all hours, dreading to pick up the mail, and wondering if we will be able to float checks long enough to keep the electricity from being turned off. I know what its like to have to choose between feeding my kid and buying him a tiny Easter basket like all the other kids had for the Easter egg hunt. (I made the basket and if he cared what it looked like, he didn't let on.)

That period of our life didn't last long--we took work where we could get it--sometimes really crappy work--but within a year or so we dug ourselves out of that hole and managed to prosper. I don't regret the experience either, because it educated me in a way that could not have happened any other way.

So do I despise the rich? No way in hell. I know what most went through in order to become rich. And everybody in America has the same opportunity to reach for that brass ring. I look at one friend whose family included a wife and five kids who lived on oatmeal three meals a day for six months while he was on a tiny training salary. He went on to make up for that time and put every one of those kids through college. And every one of them appreciated what they have a whole lot.

So my kids don't remember ever being poor and, while we never made it all the way to rich, we have been able to provide them with every opportunity to prosper themselves. Should they be despised or penalized or punished or denied anything because they aren't as poor as other kids? It sure isn't their fault, and if we can't work to benefit our own, what are we working for? If we can't work to benefit ourselves what are we working for?

 

[California Girl]

And when did I say that, exactly?

Just because I think that one's contribution to one's society should be proportional to what they take from society, how does that translate into, "the rich are all evil"?

I have never made any blanket statement of the sort.

I didn't accuse you of having made such a blanket statement. It was a comment on the back of yours.

People tend to talk about the 'rich' as though the rich do not deserve wealth. They assume all wealthy people are selfish, uncaring and achieve wealth on the backs of poor people. This crap is repeated time and time again - certainly the OP has commented on such. My point.... 'rich' people are people - just like 'poor' people are people. We should treat people as individuals. When the healthcare debate was raging, we saw lots and lots of sad stories about individuals let down by the system. Well, there are also vast numbers of people whose lives were saved by that same system. It is the same with the constant debate about the inequality of 'rich' and 'poor'. I feel no need to apologize for coming from a 'wealthy' background. I'm not ashamed of the blood, sweat and tears of my parents. They have sacrificed and worked hard and because of that, they are what most people would deem 'wealthy'. But, instead of respecting someone like my dad for achieving the 'American Dream', apparently some people think he should pay for the rest of you.

On the other hand, I know exactly what it feels like to be poor as a kid. And I know wht it feels like as an adult to have no money in hand, no money in the bank, and little or no food in the house. I know what it means to have bill collectors calling at all hours, dreading to pick up the mail, and wondering if we will be able to float checks long enough to keep the electricity from being turned off. I know what its like to have to choose between feeding my kid and buying him a tiny Easter basket like all the other kids had for the Easter egg hunt. (I made the basket and if he cared what it looked like, he didn't let on.)

That period of our life didn't last long--we took work where we could get it--sometimes really crappy work--but within a year or so we dug ourselves out of that hole and managed to prosper. I don't regret the experience either, because it educated me in a way that could not have happened any other way.

So do I despise the rich? No way in hell. I know what most went through in order to become rich. And everybody in America has the same opportunity to reach for that brass ring. I look at one friend whose family included a wife and five kids who lived on oatmeal three meals a day for six months while he was on a tiny training salary. He went on to make up for that time and put every one of those kids through college. And every one of them appreciated what they have a whole lot.

So my kids don't remember ever being poor and, while we never made it all the way to rich, we have been able to provide them with every opportunity to prosper themselves. Should they be despised or penalized or punished or denied anything because they aren't as poor as other kids? It sure isn't their fault, and if we can't work to benefit our own, what are we working for? If we can't work to benefit ourselves what are we working for?

I don't remember being 'poor'.... I'm told when we were little, money was tight but it never meant anything to me. My dad, on the other hand, grew up poor. Everything he has, he has because he worked hard, took calculated risks and sacrificed. I am exceptionally proud of my parents. They taught me and mine the value of a dollar. Not one of us takes money for granted, not one of us pisses away our cash. We were taught that with wealth comes responsibility. Each and every one of us does not just donate money to charity, we all do something for those less fortunate. Me probably more than the brothers but their jobs don't allow them the time to do that much. Mine does. So I do.

I just don't see why I'm supposed to be ashamed of an accident of birth. I've been called all kinds of crap by people on this forum - for no other reason than I (apparently) have more than they do. People like AGaySailor who bitch and whine about me being a spoiled brat. I am tired of jealous, petty people whining about their 'hard times', like no one else has had it as tough. Everyone - no matter how wealthy - has their share of shit.

 

[Foxfyre]

I didn't accuse you of having made such a blanket statement. It was a comment on the back of yours.

People tend to talk about the 'rich' as though the rich do not deserve wealth. They assume all wealthy people are selfish, uncaring and achieve wealth on the backs of poor people. This crap is repeated time and time again - certainly the OP has commented on such. My point.... 'rich' people are people - just like 'poor' people are people. We should treat people as individuals. When the healthcare debate was raging, we saw lots and lots of sad stories about individuals let down by the system. Well, there are also vast numbers of people whose lives were saved by that same system. It is the same with the constant debate about the inequality of 'rich' and 'poor'. I feel no need to apologize for coming from a 'wealthy' background. I'm not ashamed of the blood, sweat and tears of my parents. They have sacrificed and worked hard and because of that, they are what most people would deem 'wealthy'. But, instead of respecting someone like my dad for achieving the 'American Dream', apparently some people think he should pay for the rest of you.

On the other hand, I know exactly what it feels like to be poor as a kid. And I know wht it feels like as an adult to have no money in hand, no money in the bank, and little or no food in the house. I know what it means to have bill collectors calling at all hours, dreading to pick up the mail, and wondering if we will be able to float checks long enough to keep the electricity from being turned off. I know what its like to have to choose between feeding my kid and buying him a tiny Easter basket like all the other kids had for the Easter egg hunt. (I made the basket and if he cared what it looked like, he didn't let on.)

That period of our life didn't last long--we took work where we could get it--sometimes really crappy work--but within a year or so we dug ourselves out of that hole and managed to prosper. I don't regret the experience either, because it educated me in a way that could not have happened any other way.

So do I despise the rich? No way in hell. I know what most went through in order to become rich. And everybody in America has the same opportunity to reach for that brass ring. I look at one friend whose family included a wife and five kids who lived on oatmeal three meals a day for six months while he was on a tiny training salary. He went on to make up for that time and put every one of those kids through college. And every one of them appreciated what they have a whole lot.

So my kids don't remember ever being poor and, while we never made it all the way to rich, we have been able to provide them with every opportunity to prosper themselves. Should they be despised or penalized or punished or denied anything because they aren't as poor as other kids? It sure isn't their fault, and if we can't work to benefit our own, what are we working for? If we can't work to benefit ourselves what are we working for?

I don't remember being 'poor'.... I'm told when we were little, money was tight but it never meant anything to me. My dad, on the other hand, grew up poor. Everything he has, he has because he worked hard, took calculated risks and sacrificed. I am exceptionally proud of my parents. They taught me and mine the value of a dollar. Not one of us takes money for granted, not one of us pisses away our cash. We were taught that with wealth comes responsibility. Each and every one of us does not just donate money to charity, we all do something for those less fortunate. Me probably more than the brothers but their jobs don't allow them the time to do that much. Mine does. So I do.

I just don't see why I'm supposed to be ashamed of an accident of birth. I've been called all kinds of crap by people on this forum - for no other reason than I (apparently) have more than they do. People like AGaySailor who bitch and whine about me being a spoiled brat. I am tired of jealous, petty people whining about their 'hard times', like no one else has had it as tough. Everyone - no matter how wealthy - has their share of shit.

That was my whole point. Your parents did what they had to do in order for you to have a chance to have it better than they did. Most parents do that, or at least they used to. So no, you should not be despised or punished because you got a leg up any more than my kids should be despised or punished because they got a leg up. You should only be despised if you intentionally fail to take advantage of the advantage you have been given.

That's the beauty of America. We all have the opportunity to improve our situations and prosper. Those that take advantage of that opportunity generally do. And nobody should be ashamed of being the beneficiary of opportunity. They should only be ashamed of failing to utilize opportunity they have and expecting others to pay for their mistakes.

 

[Vast LWC]

That was my whole point. Your parents did what they had to do in order for you to have a chance to have it better than they did. Most parents do that, or at least they used to. So no, you should not be despised or punished because you got a leg up any more than my kids should be despised or punished because they got a leg up. You should only be despised if you intentionally fail to take advantage of the advantage you have been given.

That's the beauty of America. We all have the opportunity to improve our situations and prosper. Those that take advantage of that opportunity generally do. And nobody should be ashamed of being the beneficiary of opportunity. They should only be ashamed of failing to utilize opportunity they have and expecting others to pay for their mistakes.

What among anything that I said indicates that I "despise" people for being wealthy?

Or want to "punish" them in some manner for that matter?

All I said was that people need to pay taxes in proportion to the resources they make use of.

You all need to stop being so hyperbolic and seriously need to stop playing the victim. Nobody despises you for being rich.

And just think:

If you were living in the middle of the last century the top tax brackets were in the 80-90% range. They must have REALLY hated the rich back then.

 

[Misty]

I don't like debating because I'm always half right about everything I say.

 

[saveliberty]

That was my whole point. Your parents did what they had to do in order for you to have a chance to have it better than they did. Most parents do that, or at least they used to. So no, you should not be despised or punished because you got a leg up any more than my kids should be despised or punished because they got a leg up. You should only be despised if you intentionally fail to take advantage of the advantage you have been given.

That's the beauty of America. We all have the opportunity to improve our situations and prosper. Those that take advantage of that opportunity generally do. And nobody should be ashamed of being the beneficiary of opportunity. They should only be ashamed of failing to utilize opportunity they have and expecting others to pay for their mistakes.

What among anything that I said indicates that I "despise" people for being wealthy?

Or want to "punish" them in some manner for that matter?

All I said was that people need to pay taxes in proportion to the resources they make use of.

You all need to stop being so hyperbolic and seriously need to stop playing the victim. Nobody despises you for being rich.

And just think:

If you were living in the middle of the last century the top tax brackets were in the 80-90% range. They must have REALLY hated the rich back then.

So yeah Mr. Richguy, you should be glad we are only raping, pillaging and plundering a smaller percentage than we used to.

 

[Barb]

When did any of them ask for all that "benevolent patronage" of Big Daddy Big Gubmint?

Dude, seriously? Corporate lobbyists are just like Santa clause, the Easter bunny, and the tooth fairy? Who knew?

 

[Zona]

They make the most money, have the biggest share in the wealth, and pay the most taxes. But don't they also benefit the most from what the tax money goes towards?

They benefit from an educated and skilled workforce that help their companies flourish. THey benefit from roads and strong infrastructure to move their product and assist in their business, which allowed them to . THey benefit from the US military and police force to protect their assets and provide a relatively safe and stable country to have their business flourish. THey may even have benefitted from student loan programs getting them their education in the first place. Many benefit from new scientific discoveries funded by government research grants which helped them discover an innovative new technology based on those discoveries. They benefit from legislation and justice system that protects their innovative products from patent infringement. I'm sure there are plenty more.

Who said they pay the most in taxes? Bush tax cuts helped them out and cost us 1.8 trillion dollars.

According to a very famous billionaire, his secretary payed more in taxes than he did.

 

[Zona]

I don't like debating because I'm always half right about everything I say.

Thats probably almost true.

 

[martybegan]

They make the most money, have the biggest share in the wealth, and pay the most taxes. But don't they also benefit the most from what the tax money goes towards?

They benefit from an educated and skilled workforce that help their companies flourish. THey benefit from roads and strong infrastructure to move their product and assist in their business, which allowed them to . THey benefit from the US military and police force to protect their assets and provide a relatively safe and stable country to have their business flourish. THey may even have benefitted from student loan programs getting them their education in the first place. Many benefit from new scientific discoveries funded by government research grants which helped them discover an innovative new technology based on those discoveries. They benefit from legislation and justice system that protects their innovative products from patent infringement. I'm sure there are plenty more.

Who said they pay the most in taxes? Bush tax cuts helped them out and cost us 1.8 trillion dollars.

According to a very famous billionaire, his secretary payed more in taxes than he did.

On a PERCENTAGE basis.

 

[martybegan]

That was my whole point. Your parents did what they had to do in order for you to have a chance to have it better than they did. Most parents do that, or at least they used to. So no, you should not be despised or punished because you got a leg up any more than my kids should be despised or punished because they got a leg up. You should only be despised if you intentionally fail to take advantage of the advantage you have been given.

That's the beauty of America. We all have the opportunity to improve our situations and prosper. Those that take advantage of that opportunity generally do. And nobody should be ashamed of being the beneficiary of opportunity. They should only be ashamed of failing to utilize opportunity they have and expecting others to pay for their mistakes.

What among anything that I said indicates that I "despise" people for being wealthy?

Or want to "punish" them in some manner for that matter?

All I said was that people need to pay taxes in proportion to the resources they make use of.

You all need to stop being so hyperbolic and seriously need to stop playing the victim. Nobody despises you for being rich.

And just think:

If you were living in the middle of the last century the top tax brackets were in the 80-90% range. They must have REALLY hated the rich back then.

From wikipedia:

"Congress enacted an income tax in October 1913 as part of the Revenue Act of 1913, levying a 1% tax on net personal incomes above $3,000, with a 6% surtax on incomes above $500,000. By 1918, the top rate of the income tax was increased to 77% (on income over $1,000,000) to finance World War I. The top marginal tax rate was reduced to 58% in 1922, to 25% in 1925 and finally to 24% in 1929. In 1932 the top marginal tax rate was increased to 63% during the Great Depression and steadily increased, reaching 94% (on all income over $200,000) in 1945. Top marginal tax rates stayed near or above 90% until 1964 when the top marginal tax rate was lowered to 70%. The top marginal tax rate was lowered to 50% in 1982 and eventually to 28% in 1988. During World War II, Congress introduced payroll withholding and quarterly tax payments."

The higher rates were due to wartime. full blown wartime. Why they were kept so high until the 60s is confusing. also a 200k income in 1945 is like a 2.5M income today. interestingly the 3k income in 1913 was $65,000.00 and 500k was $10.9M in todays money.

And read democratic underground, they have plenty of people who despise rich people. Hell the poster on Kos use the wealthy as thier class war whipping boys(and girls)

 

[Foxfyre]

That was my whole point. Your parents did what they had to do in order for you to have a chance to have it better than they did. Most parents do that, or at least they used to. So no, you should not be despised or punished because you got a leg up any more than my kids should be despised or punished because they got a leg up. You should only be despised if you intentionally fail to take advantage of the advantage you have been given.

That's the beauty of America. We all have the opportunity to improve our situations and prosper. Those that take advantage of that opportunity generally do. And nobody should be ashamed of being the beneficiary of opportunity. They should only be ashamed of failing to utilize opportunity they have and expecting others to pay for their mistakes.

What among anything that I said indicates that I "despise" people for being wealthy?

Or want to "punish" them in some manner for that matter?

All I said was that people need to pay taxes in proportion to the resources they make use of.

You all need to stop being so hyperbolic and seriously need to stop playing the victim. Nobody despises you for being rich.

And just think:

If you were living in the middle of the last century the top tax brackets were in the 80-90% range. They must have REALLY hated the rich back then.

So yeah Mr. Richguy, you should be glad we are only raping, pillaging and plundering a smaller percentage than we used to.

 

[Cecilie1200]

They make the most money, have the biggest share in the wealth, and pay the most taxes. But don't they also benefit the most from what the tax money goes towards?

They benefit from an educated and skilled workforce that help their companies flourish. THey benefit from roads and strong infrastructure to move their product and assist in their business, which allowed them to . THey benefit from the US military and police force to protect their assets and provide a relatively safe and stable country to have their business flourish. THey may even have benefitted from student loan programs getting them their education in the first place. Many benefit from new scientific discoveries funded by government research grants which helped them discover an innovative new technology based on those discoveries. They benefit from legislation and justice system that protects their innovative products from patent infringement. I'm sure there are plenty more.

Except for the patent system, which only protects those with intelligence and creativity, I don't see anything on your list that YOU aren't benefitting from, as well.

 

[Zona]

They make the most money, have the biggest share in the wealth, and pay the most taxes. But don't they also benefit the most from what the tax money goes towards?

They benefit from an educated and skilled workforce that help their companies flourish. THey benefit from roads and strong infrastructure to move their product and assist in their business, which allowed them to . THey benefit from the US military and police force to protect their assets and provide a relatively safe and stable country to have their business flourish. THey may even have benefitted from student loan programs getting them their education in the first place. Many benefit from new scientific discoveries funded by government research grants which helped them discover an innovative new technology based on those discoveries. They benefit from legislation and justice system that protects their innovative products from patent infringement. I'm sure there are plenty more.

Who said they pay the most in taxes? Bush tax cuts helped them out and cost us 1.8 trillion dollars.

According to a very famous billionaire, his secretary payed more in taxes than he did.

On a PERCENTAGE basis.

Of course.

 

[Foxfyre]

That was my whole point. Your parents did what they had to do in order for you to have a chance to have it better than they did. Most parents do that, or at least they used to. So no, you should not be despised or punished because you got a leg up any more than my kids should be despised or punished because they got a leg up. You should only be despised if you intentionally fail to take advantage of the advantage you have been given.

That's the beauty of America. We all have the opportunity to improve our situations and prosper. Those that take advantage of that opportunity generally do. And nobody should be ashamed of being the beneficiary of opportunity. They should only be ashamed of failing to utilize opportunity they have and expecting others to pay for their mistakes.

What among anything that I said indicates that I "despise" people for being wealthy?

Or want to "punish" them in some manner for that matter?

All I said was that people need to pay taxes in proportion to the resources they make use of.

You all need to stop being so hyperbolic and seriously need to stop playing the victim. Nobody despises you for being rich.

And just think:

If you were living in the middle of the last century the top tax brackets were in the 80-90% range. They must have REALLY hated the rich back then.

Well I was responding to CG who has received a LOT of grief from those on the Left who do seem to think that she owes them something because she isn't poor, and I have gone toe to toe with several members on the Left who have been pretty specific that they think very few of the rich got rich without doing something unethical or without getting more than their fair share of whatever.

But it is not us who is playing the victim Sir, but it sure SOUNDS like playing the victim when you continually accuse the rich of owing more than anybody else because they are perceived to have benefitted more or because they use more.

Those who produce more do tend to use more of available resources, but in the process they also are providing much opportunity for others to have jobs, to borrow, to save, to increase their options to increase their own prosperity. Also it is the rich who make it possible for many benevolent charities to exist, who provide the foundation and grant monies, who provide venture capital, who contribute hospital wings, museum exhibits, new libraries, new education buildings, support the arts, etc. etc. etc.

And that is the fallacy that the rich someone owe more than anybody else. Without them, everybody else would be a whole lot worse off.