All The News Anti-Israel Posters Will Not Read Or Discuss

[Shusha]

Tinmore makes one very valid point that I agree with. If the Palestinians in the West Bank object to the spreading of settlements, the taking of their land (which may or may not be their land under the complicated land system but that is an argument for another day), the increasing inability to fight for their rights in courts, then they are labeled the abusers and Israel is free of resonsibility for what happens and is labeled the "victim"? REALLY?

Arabs object to the presence of Jews. That is a problem. That makes the Jewish people the victims.

I disagree. No one is absolved from the consequences of their actions and that is what you are doing by labeling one entire group as "victims". They are not. They are a powerful nuclear capable nation. They have one of the most advanced armies in the region, top notch weaponry, intelligence and organizational capabilities. To classify them as an entire group of victims is absolving them of any responsibilty for the situation and that is just wrong. It's just as wrong as the constant categorizing of Palestinians as victims. Victims are individuals.

I disagree. A people can collectively be victims.

And I don't believe that mutual abuse exists. One party is always the one primarily responsible for the violence. In this case, its the Arabs. It always has been the Arabs. And the foundation ideology behind that violence is the rejection of the Jewish right to self-determination and sovereignty despite international recognition of their homeland and the reality of it.

The presence of Jews in Area C (or Israel) is not the cause of the problem.

 

[Sixties Fan]

It has been axiomatic for the Palestinian narrative that as a result of the first Arab-Israeli war in 1948, the Palestinian Arab refugees were forcibly expelled by Israeli forces from their towns and villages. This has been the official line appearing in Palestinian school textbooks and molding the attitudes of generations of young people.

For example those textbooks assert:

Palestine’s war ended with a catastrophe that is unprecedented in history, when Zionist gangs stole Palestine and expelled its people from their cities, their villages, their lands, and their houses and established the State of Israel.

That’s from an Arabic language textbook in 2006, grade 12.

Here’s another quote:

Let us think and discuss: the impact of the Palestinians’ forced emigration at the Zionists’ hands in 1948.

That’s from a textbook of geography studies, grade 11, written just recently in 2017.

A third quote:

“The Palestinian refugee camps were formed because of the ethnic cleansing perpetrated by the Zionist gangs.

That’s from a mathematics text, grade 11, in 2017.

Despite the fact that the 1948 war was caused by the invasion by five Arab armies into the nascent State of Israel, the emerging Palestinian narrative put the blame squarely upon the Israeli side. The idea that the Palestinian “exodus” was caused by the orders of the Palestinian Arab leaders or was connected to the invasion by Arab armies has been rejected out of hand by prominent writers like Edward Said in his book The Question of Palestine.

That is why the recent words of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, at the PLO Consultative Council on December 9, 2018, are so significant.

Looking back historically, Abbas declared:

Everyone started to speak in our name, in our absence. Therefore we could do nothing. And you recall, if you remember, that in 1948, when the “Nakba,” or catastrophe, took place, we weren’t a party to it. We were taken out, and we were told, after a week we will return you.

Elsewhere he was even more explicit on this point. Back in March 1976 in the Palestinian publication Falastin El-Thawra that came out in Beirut, he said that the Arab armies forced the Palestinians to emigrate and to leave their homeland.

(full article online)

Mahmoud Abbas Contradicts the Palestinian Narrative on Refugees

 

[Sixties Fan]

• British taxpayers aided salaries of officials who teach children jihadi virtues
• Plays put on at schools and have even included pupils staging mock executions
• Joan Ryan MP said aid to the Palestinian Authority should be suspended until the books are removed

(full article online)

British taxpayers are STILL funding 'lessons in hate' at Palestinian schools | Daily Mail Online

 

[Coyote]

Has she said anything to make one think she does not consider them vermin? She called them snakes after all.

Adult settlers stoning children. Why? What do they think those kids are? Humans? Or vermin? What is their excuse?

Ah. So the default is that Jews think Arabs are vermin? And we have to prove that we don't? That seems to be putting the cart before the horse, don't you think?

What is their excuse? I have no idea. I think its inexcusable, myself.

Uh no. Please DO NOT take what I say and add your words to it.

I am talking about a specific group of Israeli's.

Yes, absolutely. One or more specific groups of Jews in Judea and Samaria, as I said before, are FED UP, with the endless violence and lies aimed at making them move out of their homes again, since 1948.

So, yes, these particular groups do not give a darn about what happens, they are tired of being attacked and being told that they have "stolen" Palestinian land and must move out, someday somehow.

Does the stoning happen on a daily basis against those children or did it happen once or twice and not happening anymore?
What is Israel supposed to do about it?
How can the IDF or police be everywhere when Arabs or Jews are stoned?

Not every Arab who throws stones is caught?
And the Arab side means not only to harm, but to kill as they have succeeded many times in doing so, not only in Judea and Samaria
but in Israel as well.

Is the intent of the Jews to murder the Arabs? Or just to scare?

Against Children? Sure it is despicable.

Just as despicable as the Arabs who were throwing any size rocks at Scout like Jewish children who were hiking with their leaders and wounded some of them. Or any other example.

But you are telling us that the Jews stoning Arabs is at the same volume, numbers as the Arabs stoning Jews?

From what source?

As far as I know there is no such statistic.

Here is an example of Arabs throwing rocks at Jews in 2011 and even telling how respectful of the Temple Mount they were around 1948.

Video: Arabs Attack at Kotel

Muslims threw rocks at Jewish worshipers praying at the Kotel after Friday’s Muslim prayers. No one was reported hurt.
--------------

Veteran Jerusalemites have testified that before Jordan occupied the Wall in 1948, Arabs had a habit of intentionally driving their donkeys through the crowd of Jewish worshipers at the Kotel in order to harass and humiliate them. Arabs have also repeatedly ransacked the Tomb of Joseph in Shechem and recently gunned down a Jewish man who had come to pray there.

-------------------

The point is.......that Muslims have never respected Jews on their own ancient homeland to begin with. There are lots of examples of it, and the recent or not recent incidents are nothing new.

Before 1936 and before Israel became Independent Jews were attacked all the time with no chance to defend themselves, especially if they tried to pray at their holy sites. There was no respect for them from those who viewed the Jews as having no rights at all , and all the land being Muslim land.

Those ideas from the Arab Muslim side continue to this day.

They attack with rocks, molotov, etc etc because they do not acknowledge ANY Jewish right to ANY of the land.

I think most stone throwers on both sides, do not intend to kill. They intend hurt, frighten, unload their anger and dislike. I do not think there is any difference between Jewish stone throwers and Arab stone throwers.

People who toss molotov's, drive into crowds, use knives and guns, and pour gasoline on people and set them on fire intend to kill. And regardless of whether they are Arab or Jewish, they do not acknowledge the other's right to share the same land.

Jewish settlers stoning Palestinians goes on more often then you think. Rather than give specific examples, google "settlers stone palestinian" and there are tons of examples. Stones are plentiful.

I don't have exact numbers and statistics. Do you? You can't go by arrests because we both know Palestinians are much more likely to be arrested and incarcerated than Jews.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Has she said anything to make one think she does not consider them vermin? She called them snakes after all.

Adult settlers stoning children. Why? What do they think those kids are? Humans? Or vermin? What is their excuse?

Ah. So the default is that Jews think Arabs are vermin? And we have to prove that we don't? That seems to be putting the cart before the horse, don't you think?

What is their excuse? I have no idea. I think its inexcusable, myself.

Uh no. Please DO NOT take what I say and add your words to it.

I am talking about a specific group of Israeli's.

Yes, absolutely. One or more specific groups of Jews in Judea and Samaria, as I said before, are FED UP, with the endless violence and lies aimed at making them move out of their homes again, since 1948.

So, yes, these particular groups do not give a darn about what happens, they are tired of being attacked and being told that they have "stolen" Palestinian land and must move out, someday somehow.

Does the stoning happen on a daily basis against those children or did it happen once or twice and not happening anymore?
What is Israel supposed to do about it?
How can the IDF or police be everywhere when Arabs or Jews are stoned?

Not every Arab who throws stones is caught?
And the Arab side means not only to harm, but to kill as they have succeeded many times in doing so, not only in Judea and Samaria
but in Israel as well.

Is the intent of the Jews to murder the Arabs? Or just to scare?

Against Children? Sure it is despicable.

Just as despicable as the Arabs who were throwing any size rocks at Scout like Jewish children who were hiking with their leaders and wounded some of them. Or any other example.

But you are telling us that the Jews stoning Arabs is at the same volume, numbers as the Arabs stoning Jews?

From what source?

As far as I know there is no such statistic.

Here is an example of Arabs throwing rocks at Jews in 2011 and even telling how respectful of the Temple Mount they were around 1948.

Video: Arabs Attack at Kotel

Muslims threw rocks at Jewish worshipers praying at the Kotel after Friday’s Muslim prayers. No one was reported hurt.
--------------

Veteran Jerusalemites have testified that before Jordan occupied the Wall in 1948, Arabs had a habit of intentionally driving their donkeys through the crowd of Jewish worshipers at the Kotel in order to harass and humiliate them. Arabs have also repeatedly ransacked the Tomb of Joseph in Shechem and recently gunned down a Jewish man who had come to pray there.

-------------------

The point is.......that Muslims have never respected Jews on their own ancient homeland to begin with. There are lots of examples of it, and the recent or not recent incidents are nothing new.

Before 1936 and before Israel became Independent Jews were attacked all the time with no chance to defend themselves, especially if they tried to pray at their holy sites. There was no respect for them from those who viewed the Jews as having no rights at all , and all the land being Muslim land.

Those ideas from the Arab Muslim side continue to this day.

They attack with rocks, molotov, etc etc because they do not acknowledge ANY Jewish right to ANY of the land.

I think most stone throwers on both sides, do not intend to kill. They intend hurt, frighten, unload their anger and dislike. I do not think there is any difference between Jewish stone throwers and Arab stone throwers.

People who toss molotov's, drive into crowds, use knives and guns, and pour gasoline on people and set them on fire intend to kill. And regardless of whether they are Arab or Jewish, they do not acknowledge the other's right to share the same land.

Jewish settlers stoning Palestinians goes on more often then you think. Rather than give specific examples, google "settlers stone palestinian" and there are tons of examples. Stones are plentiful.

I don't have exact numbers and statistics. Do you? You can't go by arrests because we both know Palestinians are much more likely to be arrested and incarcerated than Jews.

Sorry, but Arab stone throwers do intend to kill, and they have killed quite a few Jews to this day.

Huge rocks being thrown against a car do not only damage the car and frighten the passengers, they have killed quite a few.
The same with firing bullets into moving cars, it is intent to kill Jews, not just scare them into leaving the area.

The Arabs of Palestine are taught to kill Jews, and those who follow those teachings are seen as heroes when they achieve the killing of any Jew anywhere, not only in Israel, Judea and Samaria, but we see the same in Europe when Arabs have attacked and killed Jews over there. Some are not even Palestinians, but the teaching is the same, to make the world and the Jews submit to their demands, to what they want.

Stone attacks, knife attacks, car attacks, so on and so forth.....the teachings, the incitement comes from the same place.

Islamic beliefs. The belief that Jews do not have the right to be sovereign over Muslim conquered land, even if it is their own ancient homeland. That is what Husseini believed. Arafat believed, Abbas, the PLO, Fatah and all others believe.

That is what keeps leading those Arabs, or other Muslims who are committing any of these crimes to act that way.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Kids at kindergarten ceremony pretend to kill Israeli soldiers while song in Hebrew is played which threatens Israelis: “O Zionist, a rocket will reach you where you live… I will make you drink the cup of death” - Motivating children to seek Shahada | PMW


These Arabs are taught from birth that they need to kill Jews in order to regain what is considered Muslim land.

Gratefully, not all answer the call, but there are simply too many who do. And being told that they will be paid for killing Jews, if they go to prison, are injured or are killed, is an even better incentive which does not exist anywhere in the world.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: All The News Anti-Israel Posters Will Not Read Or Discuss
⁜→ Coyote, Shusha, et al,

When I talk about the Arab Palestinians intentionally avoiding (within Oslo I) the "Permanent Status of Negotiation" (Article V) - and - "Dispute Resolution Process" (Article XV), there is a consequence to the avoidance (now passing the Quarter Century mark) to be considered. And as our friend "Coyote" has indicated, there is an ever demising liability attached for the Israelis to face (if we have not already passed that point).

As we approach the 25-year mark on the establishment of Area "C" (Oslo II), now less than 24 months away, Israel has maintained Article 43 (Hague Regulations) guardianship, currently, with full Israeli civil and security control. What impact, if any, does this have legally on the situation?

When you try to make big distinctions, you do one thing. You marginalize the reality of the other. In individual actions which get ignored or excused, they are the same. In individual people - what is the difference between the settler throwing a stone and the Palestinian throwing a stone? Not much.

The larger picture might be different, but it is being used to excuse the many small cruelties and injustices that are allowed to be perpetrated because one side is - over 5 million people - is broad-brushed and demonized.

Tinmore makes one very valid point that I agree with. If the Palestinians in the West Bank object to the spreading of settlements, the taking of their land (which may or may not be their land under the complicated land system but that is an argument for another day), the increasing inability to fight for their rights in courts, then they are labeled the abusers and Israel is free of responsibility for what happens and is labeled the "victim"? REALLY?

(COMMENT)

What is the consequences, if any, should the Arab Palestinians experience if they resist negotiations and resolution procedures?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Sixties Fan]

The complaint states that the demonstrations take place every Friday in the villages of Bil’in, Na’alin, Nabi Salih and Qudom. According to the complaint, “the demonstrators act against IDF soldiers and border policemen, including by throwing stones at the security forces in order to harm them.”

It was further noted that Kobi Snitz has been serving as the organizer of the demonstrations in the village of Na’alin for about ten years, leading and participating in them, and that Ilan Shalif serves as the organizer for the village of Bil’in. Snitz allegedly conducts preliminary patrols in the field in order to gather information about the presence of the security forces, which he passes on to the demonstrators. Schiff also briefs the demonstrators and leads them near Bil’in. The accused also allegedly dispense gas masks and protective goggles to the demonstrators.

The three defendants allegedly recruit Israeli and foreign activists to take part in violent demonstrations and drive them over on Fridays to support the local rioters.

(full article online)

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/eye...harges-filed-by-pro-zionist-group/2018/12/18/

 

[Sixties Fan]

It’s no secret that UNIFIL, the UN peacekeeping force in Lebanon, has never done the job it’s supposedly there to do. But this week, we learned that UNIFIL isn’t merely useless; it’s counterproductive. By the very fact of its existence, the organization deters the European Union from listing Hezbollah as a terrorist organization—something which, unlike UNIFIL, would genuinely impede Hezbollah’s operations.

This dirty little secret came out after Italian Interior Minister Matteo Salvini called Hezbollah “Islamic terrorists” during a visit to Israel on Tuesday. The Italian Defense Ministry promptly issued a press statement blasting Salvini for “embarrassing” Rome by calling a spade a spade. “These statements obviously put in a very difficult position our men who are deployed on that southern border,” the statement warned, referring to the Italian contingent of UNIFIL deployed along Lebanon’s border with Israel.

It doesn’t take an Einstein to realize that if Italy’s Defense Ministry fears repercussions to its troops from a single minister daring to call Hezbollah “terrorists,” it would be terrified of the consequences should the EU ever formally declare Hezbollah a terrorist organization. Thus, Italy’s significant involvement in UNIFIL—it currently contributes over 10 percent of UNIFIL’s manpower, including its commanding officer—constitutes a major deterrent to consenting to such a step.

Nor is Italy unique in this regard. Several EU countries make significant troop contributions to UNIFIL, including France, Germany, Spain, Ireland, Austria, and Greece. Europe also usually supplies the force’s commander. The previous commander was Irish, the two before him were Italian, the one before that was Spanish, etc.

(full article online)

UNIFIL Deters EU from Banning Hezbollah | Evelyn Gordon

 

[Sixties Fan]

A few days ago, at its sixth annual Zionist Conference for Human Rights, Im Tirtzu paid powerful tribute to the reality that Zionism is perhaps the ultimate root and repository of human rights.

For Zionism, human rights is not just about victims. It is also about respecting those non-Jews who are willing to embrace Zionism's mission, the decency of Israel, and to participate in building our society. So it was the other night, as we honored and embraced Druze, Muslims and Christians who work toward the integration of minorities into Israeli society.

These citizens recognize a core attribute of Zionism that the Left does not: By its nature, seeking to reinstate Judaism and Israel as a light unto the nations, Zionism is not an exclusionist ideology. Rather, it recognizes and respects the reality that, like the "mixed multitude," the huge array of non-Jews who left Egypt with Moses, there have always been non-Jews living among us.

These minorities are offered the opportunity to benefit from all that Israel has to offer them. The more that they reciprocate, through national identification, service and affinity, the more they are welcomed, the warmer they are embraced.

(full article online)

http://www.israelhayom.com/opinions/zionisms-embrace-of-human-rights/?redirected=326451

 

[Sixties Fan]

On December 10, an Egyptian writer and translator named Fatima Naoot wrote an op-ed in Al Masry Al Youm, after attending an official Chanukah party in Cairo, about how much Jews contributed to Egyptian culture, how loyal they were to Egypt and how much of a shame it is that they were forcibly expelled from that country under Nasser.

The furious reaction to her article has not abated for over a week. People are insulting her by calling her Fatima Yehudah. They are calling her Zionist even though she isn't. They are making fun of her for saying that she received an award from the UN (apparently from a UN Arts initiative.)

I see dozens of articles denouncing Fatima Naoot.

The critics are saying either that the Jews left voluntarily from Egypt - or that they were spies for Israel. But they all insist that they are not antisemitic, oh no.

The more honest ones tacitly recognize that what she said is true - but they are angry that she said it out loud. Because if Egyptians admit that it ethnically cleansed essentially all of its Jews, then it has to pay reparations.

A writer for The Seventh Day says:

(full article online)

Egyptians up in arms over op-ed that praises Jews and blames Egypt for kicking them out ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News

 

[Shusha]

And regardless of whether they are Arab or Jewish, they do not acknowledge the other's right to share the same land.

This is an attempt to make things equal again. This is not correct. The Jewish people have absolutely not only recognized and acknowledged Arab rights to share the land, they have actively created that reality by abandoning first Jordan, then Judea and Samaria, then Gaza.

Nothing is enough. STILL Arabs attack Israel. And STILL attack the very idea of Israel.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Palestinian Authority terrorists tried to kill Israeli motorists as they passed Halhul, hurling large rocks at windshields and hoping to either disable the vehicle so they could attack the drivers, or to sufficiently distract the driver so as to cause a fatal motor vehicle accident.

A number of Israeli-driven vehicles were damaged in the attacks, according to Hatzalah Without Borders, including one in which a couple and their two young children were traveling.

The rocks shattered a window, with multiple glass shards flying directly into the face of the nine-month-old infant boy strapped into his car seat in the back.

Emergency medical personnel evacuated the infant to Shaare Zedek Medical Center in Jerusalem for medical treatment.

About two and a half hours later, there was another stoning attack on an Israeli public bus on the same road. Palestinian Authority terrorists attacked Israeli drivers traveling the road between the bypass junction and an archaeological excavation in the area. No physical injuries were reported.

Three hours after that rash of attacks, Arab terrorists again began throwing rocks at an Israeli public bus, also on the Gush Etzion road (Highway 60) as the vehicle passed the Palestinian Authority town of Al Aroub. No one was physically injured on the bus, but the windshield was smashed, according to a report by Hatzalah Without Borders.

(full article online)

9-Month-Old Baby Injured in Highway 60 Terror Attack

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: All The News Anti-Israel Posters Will Not Read Or Discuss
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

With any large culture or segment of people, there are subsets that one or more show definite separate and distinct attributes and characteristics. The Jewish "Settlers" of the West Bank fall into this category with malevolent and unkindly attributes and definite negative characteristics.

Why do settlers stone Palestinian kids trying to go to school?

(COMMENT)

I do not think that there is any question, that the vast majority for all Israelis (Jewish or otherwise) find the behavior of these Jewish "Settlers" of the West Bank to be abhorrent and unacceptable; → maybe even a bit ashamed by it. And this shame may be the reason that the Israelis don't talk about them. They want to disassociate themselves for this poorly disciplined aspect of their society.

Most Respectfully,
R

Some posters insist in picking an extremely small group of Jews who have been harassed and attacked endlessly and have had enough of it and are giving back what they have been given.

It is preferable that they would not act as the Arabs do, but 98 years of Arab attacks, rapes, dismemberment, expulsions, murders of Jews does finally hit some Jews in Israel and in Judea and Samaria and they say enough and start acting on their own in the bad way we see.

The number of times some Jews have attacked Arabs is extremely low when one looks at the endless attacks by Arabs on Jews.

We are not seeing Jews with cars, screw drivers, knives, molotovs, etc going out right after we hear it in the news and do to the Arabs what is constantly being done to the Jews.

There has not been one fiery or explosive balloon sent to Gaza or Areas A and B by any Jews.

As it has been reminded, it is a war.
It has been going on since 1920 when the Husseini Clan decided to start riots threatening all Jews in Mandate Palestine.

Many in the Haredi, and other religious groups, seem to be behind the attacks on Arabs, but it is not because they have not constantly experienced being attacked themselves and being constantly told that they have "stolen" Arab land, when it is the Jews who were expelled from this historical Jewish land of Judea and Samaria in 1948 and everything, land, schools, homes, businesses, etc, stolen from them by the Hashemite Arabs.

And let us not forget, that after Jews were expelled by their own government in 2005 from Gaza and cities in Judea and Samaria, the Arab leaders and the population only see more possibilities of taking more land from the Jews.

Why? Because they are not Muslims.

Because the Arabs managed to get 80% of the Mandate for Palestine designed for the re-creation of the Jewish State, and will never be happy until the other 20% is also in Arab/Muslim hands.

When Muslims accuse the land of being stolen, they are only referring to the fact that the land used to be in Muslim hands, and they want it all to be in Muslim hands, it does not matter which Arab tribe gets it.

But Jews, as we all know, according to Islam, does not have the right to be sovereign over any part of once conquered Muslim land.

Since 1920. It is a WAR. It continues to be the Muslim war against the Jewish rights to be sovereign over any part of their ancient homeland.

Israel does its part, even if not always, in punishing crimes.
Hamas gives candies. The PA, like Hamas, names streets, parks, etc after any Arab who kills Jews.

Jews are not seen as humans. They follow the teachings and repeat constantly that Jews are Ape and Pigs. And that one must remember the Arabian Jewish tribe which was decapitated and turn to slavery, in Khaybar. How those Jews were defeated, is how today's Jews must be defeated.

That is the war Israel faces. That is the level of education in the Arab communities Jews face on a daily basis.

Jewish culture and education is what keeps many more Jews from doing exactly to the Arabs what the Arabs keep doing to the Jews.

That is the war Israel faces. That is the level of education in the Arab communities Jews face on a daily basis.

Maybe they should not have plopped their country on top of another people.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Gee...I wonder why settlers stone Palestinian children on their way to school...target practice for vermin control?

"They are all enemy combatants, and their
shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there."

Why don't you post the entire quote, for context, rather than attempting to make equivalent things which are not equivalent. It looks an awful lot like projection to me.

Here's the whole quote:

"The Palestinian people has declared war on us, and we must respond with war. Not an operation, not a slow-moving one, not low-intensity, not controlled escalation, no destruction of terror infrastructure, no targeted killings. Enough with the oblique references. This is a war. Words have meanings. This is a war. It is not a war against terror, and not a war against extremists, and not even a war against the Palestinian Authority. These too are forms of avoiding reality. This is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people. Why? Ask them, they started.

I don’t know why it’s so hard for us to define reality with the simple words that language puts at our disposal. Why do we have to make up a new name for the war every other week, just to avoid calling it by its name. What’s so horrifying about understanding that the entire Palestinian people is the enemy? Every war is between two peoples, and in every war the people who started the war, that whole people, is the enemy. A declaration of war is not a war crime. Responding with war certainly is not. Nor is the use of the word “war”, nor a clear definition who the enemy is. Au contraire: the morality of war (yes, there is such a thing) is founded on the assumption that there are wars in this world, and that war is not the normal state of things, and that in wars the enemy is usually an entire people, including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.

And the morality of war knows that it is not possible to refrain from hurting enemy civilians. It does not condemn the British air force, which bombed and totally destroyed the German city of Dresden, or the US planes that destroyed the cities of Poland and wrecked half of Budapest, places whose wretched residents had never done a thing to America, but which had to be destroyed in order to win the war against evil. The morals of war do not require that Russia be brought to trial, though it bombs and destroys towns and neighborhoods in Chechnya. It does not denounce the UN Peacekeeping Forces for killing hundreds of civilians in Angola, nor the NATO forces who bombed Milosevic’s Belgrade, a city with a million civilians, elderly, babies, women, and children. The morals of war accept as correct in principle, not only politically, what America has done in Afghanistan, including the massive bombing of populated places, including the creation of a refugee stream of hundreds of thousands of people who escaped the horrors of war, for thousands of whom there is no home to return to.

And in our war this is sevenfold more correct, because the enemy soldiers hide out among the population, and it is only through its support that they can fight. Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. Actors in the war are those who incite in mosques, who write the murderous curricula for schools, who give shelter, who provide vehicles, and all those who honor and give them their moral support. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there."

While the use of the term "snakes" is abhorrent here, the concept that a war between peoples can only be conducted with the support of those peoples is a valid one. Who is "they" in your quote? The ACTORS who contribute to the war through means other than physical weapons: the imams who incite, the educators who teach, the mothers who raise martyrs, the populace who shelter and celebrate, the government which pays.

This is in NO WAY a call for "vermin control" or genocide. Nor does it reject the status of "civilian". Nor does it claim that people have no right to life. It is the recognition that there is more to war than those who hold the stones in slings or load bullets into guns and that the responsibility lies with ALL the actors. It says (eloquently until the "snakes" part) that the responsibility rests with those who bring war and that the SOLUTION to war is not to stop the guns, its to stop the support.



rylah Is there a connotation to the Hebrew word for "snake" which may be not understood by English speakers?

This is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people. Why? Ask them, they started.

Indeed, the Palestinians should have never gone to Europe to attack the Zionists.

Au contraire: the morality of war (yes, there is such a thing) is founded on the assumption that there are wars in this world, and that war is not the normal state of things, and that in wars the enemy is usually an entire people, including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.

Are you saying that it is OK to send rockets into Israel?

Probably not.

But no doubt, you are.

Civillians here don't lob rockets over walls and fences.

What happened, btw, to all those nice greenhouses the Israelis left behind in Gaza?

Thanks for asking.

Israel shuts off water, dries Gaza greenhouses - WND - WND

I wasn't asking you.

Via Al Jazeera:

updated 9/13/2005 10:25:07 PM

NEVE DEKALIM, Gaza Strip — Palestinians looted dozens of greenhouses on Tuesday, walking off with irrigation hoses, water pumps and plastic sheeting in a blow to fledgling efforts to reconstruct the Gaza Strip.

American Jewish donors had bought more than 3,000 greenhouses from Israeli settlers in Gaza for $14 million last month and transferred them to the Palestinian Authority. Former World Bank President James Wolfensohn, who brokered the deal, put up $500,000 of his own cash.

Palestinian police stood by helplessly Tuesday as looters carted off materials from greenhouses in several settlements, and commanders complained they did not have enough manpower to protect the prized assets. In some instances, there was no security and in others, police even joined the looters, witnesses said.

“We need at least another 70 soldiers. This is just a joke,” said Taysir Haddad, one of 22 security guards assigned to Neve Dekalim, formerly the largest Jewish settlement in Gaza. “We’ve tried to stop as many people as we can, but they’re like locusts.”

The failure of the security forces to prevent scavenging and looting in the settlements after Israel’s troop pullout Monday raised new concerns about Gaza’s future.

Palestinians looted dozens of greenhouses on Tuesday, walking off with irrigation hoses, water pumps and plastic sheeting in a blow to fledgling efforts to reconstruct the Gaza Strip.

The Palestinians needed that stuff to rebuild their greenhouses that Israel bulldozed.

 

[Sixties Fan]

[ Muslim mentality ]

(3) The establishment of an independent Palestinian state to stop the Zionist dreams is a stumbling block in the way of Israeli expansionist policies. The only way to satisfy this evil of Israel is its possible disappearance or containment within the 1967 borders.

(4) The Zionist movement not only targets Palestine, but all Arabs and Muslims. It seeks to establish «Greater Israel» (from the Nile to the Euphrates) on the remains of the Arab nation ...! Does Israel possess such a huge arsenal of conventional and strategic weapons to confront the Palestinians?

(5) This cancerous entity is considered (or should be considered) the greatest enemy of the Arab and Islamic nation. There is no one in the world who is more hostile to Arabism than Israel. How do the Arabs believe in their side and open the Arab doors to it?

(full article online)

A Saudi op-ed gives 12 reasons why Arabs shouldn't have ties to Israel ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News

 

[theliq]

RE: All The News Anti-Israel Posters Will Not Read Or Discuss
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

With any large culture or segment of people, there are subsets that one or more show definite separate and distinct attributes and characteristics. The Jewish "Settlers" of the West Bank fall into this category with malevolent and unkindly attributes and definite negative characteristics.

Why do settlers stone Palestinian kids trying to go to school?

(COMMENT)

I do not think that there is any question, that the vast majority for all Israelis (Jewish or otherwise) find the behavior of these Jewish "Settlers" of the West Bank to be abhorrent and unacceptable; → maybe even a bit ashamed by it. And this shame may be the reason that the Israelis don't talk about them. They want to disassociate themselves for this poorly disciplined aspect of their society.

Most Respectfully,
R

Some posters insist in picking an extremely small group of Jews who have been harassed and attacked endlessly and have had enough of it and are giving back what they have been given.

It is preferable that they would not act as the Arabs do, but 98 years of Arab attacks, rapes, dismemberment, expulsions, murders of Jews does finally hit some Jews in Israel and in Judea and Samaria and they say enough and start acting on their own in the bad way we see.

The number of times some Jews have attacked Arabs is extremely low when one looks at the endless attacks by Arabs on Jews.

We are not seeing Jews with cars, screw drivers, knives, molotovs, etc going out right after we hear it in the news and do to the Arabs what is constantly being done to the Jews.

There has not been one fiery or explosive balloon sent to Gaza or Areas A and B by any Jews.

As it has been reminded, it is a war.
It has been going on since 1920 when the Husseini Clan decided to start riots threatening all Jews in Mandate Palestine.

Many in the Haredi, and other religious groups, seem to be behind the attacks on Arabs, but it is not because they have not constantly experienced being attacked themselves and being constantly told that they have "stolen" Arab land, when it is the Jews who were expelled from this historical Jewish land of Judea and Samaria in 1948 and everything, land, schools, homes, businesses, etc, stolen from them by the Hashemite Arabs.

And let us not forget, that after Jews were expelled by their own government in 2005 from Gaza and cities in Judea and Samaria, the Arab leaders and the population only see more possibilities of taking more land from the Jews.

Why? Because they are not Muslims.

Because the Arabs managed to get 80% of the Mandate for Palestine designed for the re-creation of the Jewish State, and will never be happy until the other 20% is also in Arab/Muslim hands.

When Muslims accuse the land of being stolen, they are only referring to the fact that the land used to be in Muslim hands, and they want it all to be in Muslim hands, it does not matter which Arab tribe gets it.

But Jews, as we all know, according to Islam, does not have the right to be sovereign over any part of once conquered Muslim land.

Since 1920. It is a WAR. It continues to be the Muslim war against the Jewish rights to be sovereign over any part of their ancient homeland.

Israel does its part, even if not always, in punishing crimes.
Hamas gives candies. The PA, like Hamas, names streets, parks, etc after any Arab who kills Jews.

Jews are not seen as humans. They follow the teachings and repeat constantly that Jews are Ape and Pigs. And that one must remember the Arabian Jewish tribe which was decapitated and turn to slavery, in Khaybar. How those Jews were defeated, is how today's Jews must be defeated.

That is the war Israel faces. That is the level of education in the Arab communities Jews face on a daily basis.

Jewish culture and education is what keeps many more Jews from doing exactly to the Arabs what the Arabs keep doing to the Jews.

It is an "extremely small group of Jews" with an extremely large political voice who are making it extremely difficult to make a peaceful resolution of that area and maintain peace in that area. But keep deflecting onto broader issues and excusing it. Nothing will change because that is exactly what keeps happening. One side gets excused and the other condemned.

That is a joke for sure. You are blaming a small group of Jewish settlers in Judea and Samaria of keeping a Peace Treaty from happening?

But not all the attacks on Jews since 1920 and the determined Hamas and PLO charters which PROHIBIT the Arabs from making peace with the Jews and giving up any part of what they consider Muslim land.

You are absolutely correct.

The Arab Muslim side will continue to be condemned because it has been THEIR side who started the war against the Jews and then against Israel after its Independence, and has refused any and every attempt to a Peace Treaty, just as Arafat did.

They are Very, Very scared of being assassinated if they ever agree to a Peace treaty, just as the Egyptian President was.

By all means, do not take any part of history as a lesson as to what to expect and and as a window to the Muslim way of thinking.

STOP USING THE WORD JEWS,WHEN ISRAEL IS NOW RUN BY NON-JEWS BUT THOSE CULTISTS THE ZIONIST-TERRORISTS NON-JEWS

ZIONISTS HAVE NO INTENTION OF GIVING BACK ANY PART OF THE PALESTINIAN LAND THEY STOLE...THIS WAY CLEARLY OBSERVED ON THE EVENING THEY ASSASSINATED PRIME MINISTER RABIN

SO CALL YOUR STOPPY POSTES AND PROSE IS NOT RELIVENT...ONLY I THELIQ SPEAK THE TRUTH

THE TRUTH IS GET RID OF ALL ZIONISTS AND LETS HAVE PEACE...ZIONISTS ONLY CREEP,WHEN WE SLEEP AND LIE AND BE SLY,

 

[theliq]

[ Muslim mentality ]

(3) The establishment of an independent Palestinian state to stop the Zionist dreams is a stumbling block in the way of Israeli expansionist policies. The only way to satisfy this evil of Israel is its possible disappearance or containment within the 1967 borders.

(4) The Zionist movement not only targets Palestine, but all Arabs and Muslims. It seeks to establish «Greater Israel» (from the Nile to the Euphrates) on the remains of the Arab nation ...! Does Israel possess such a huge arsenal of conventional and strategic weapons to confront the Palestinians?

(5) This cancerous entity is considered (or should be considered) the greatest enemy of the Arab and Islamic nation. There is no one in the world who is more hostile to Arabism than Israel. How do the Arabs believe in their side and open the Arab doors to it?

(full article online)

A Saudi op-ed gives 12 reasons why Arabs shouldn't have ties to Israel ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News

ZIONISTS ARE NOT JEWS AND ARE OWED NOTHING ….ZIONISTS DREAMS MY ASS...YEAH DREAMS OF MURDERING THE INNOCENT....F OFF

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: All The News Anti-Israel Posters Will Not Read Or Discuss
⁜→ theliq, et al,

Well, actually, I was not talking about "Zionists."

There is a lot of SCUM that has invaded Palestine,All of Whom have NO RIGHT and NO PAST WITH THIS LAND...but the ZIONISTS COULDN'T GIVE A SHIT BECAUSE THEY ARE ILLEGAL ALIENS,

(COMMENT)

❖ Not all Israelis are Jews.
❖ Not all Jews are Zionists.
❖ Not all Zionists are Settlers.​

Each nation, state and territorial government has its own immigration laws and its own understanding as to what it means to be an "illegal alien."

There is no question about the following facts.

❖ The Allied Powers assumed the Title and Rights to the territory that was formerly under the Mandate.
❖ The Allied Powers agree that under the Ttile and Rights the assumed by Treaty Law, they would establish a Jewish national Home in the territory.
❖ The Allied Powers assume that under the Ttile and Rights the assumed by Treaty Law, to facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage immigration to "all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish National Home."​

Where is the "illegal immigration" criteria?

Zionists are a Terrorist Organization and Racist

(COMMENT)

What lawful entity actually stipulates that?

View attachment 235335
​

Zionism is the political movement for national liberation. This movement includes the belief that:

◈ The Jewish people have the right to self-determination.
◈ The Jewish people have the right to realize their self-determination.
◈ The Jewish people have a right to become a nation like any other nation.​

These are not "terrorist view" but the views held currently under international law and expressed by the Arab Palestinian People.

IF it is the case that the "Zionists are a Terrorist Organization" → THEN it must be the case the Arab Palestinian are equally guilty.

On the matter of "racism," the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) derive this belief from A/RES/3379 (XXX) 10 November 1975 which Determines that zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination. What the HoAP most often forget to disclose (intentionally) is that in A/RES/46/86 16 December 1991 the UN specifically corrected the error and decided to "revoke the determination contained in its resolution 3379 (XXX) of 10 November 1975." The HoAP do this to perpetuate the myths.

with it...Can anyone explain to me what is in the head of a Zionist other than self Loathing and Hate ????? , but they believe somehow their Cult is respectable...And I agree everyone should Hate Zionism it is a Cult of Terror.

(COMMENT)

A "cult," by definition, is dealing with a religious belief directed towards a very specific idea. Zionism is NOT a religious belief structure; but a national liberation movement.

View attachment 235339
​

As you will note, Article 2, Section 1, The Constitution of the WZO updated November 2017, specifically speaks to the aims of Zionism secured under public law.

Most Respectfully,
R

◈ The Jewish people have the right to self-determination.
◈ The Jewish people have the right to realize their self-determination.
◈ The Jewish people have a right to become a nation like any other nation.

And, according to you, the Palestinians do not have rights.

The Palestinian people's have those same exact rights.

They just don't have the right to murder civilians. No one has that right.

Israel murders civilians all the time yet Palestinian resistance is expected to be pristine. If the international community would enforce international law, that problem would be solved.

No they are not expected to be pristine. Just, for a start - stop targeting civilians. Explain please how you can justify creeping into a house at night and murdering every inhabitent right down to the infant? How is that NOT deliberately targeting civilians? How is that in any remote way self defense?

I rest my case. Why should the Palestinians be the only ones who have to follow the rules?

 

[Sixties Fan]

RE: All The News Anti-Israel Posters Will Not Read Or Discuss
⁜→ theliq, et al,

Well, actually, I was not talking about "Zionists."

(COMMENT)

❖ Not all Israelis are Jews.
❖ Not all Jews are Zionists.
❖ Not all Zionists are Settlers.​

Each nation, state and territorial government has its own immigration laws and its own understanding as to what it means to be an "illegal alien."

There is no question about the following facts.

❖ The Allied Powers assumed the Title and Rights to the territory that was formerly under the Mandate.
❖ The Allied Powers agree that under the Ttile and Rights the assumed by Treaty Law, they would establish a Jewish national Home in the territory.
❖ The Allied Powers assume that under the Ttile and Rights the assumed by Treaty Law, to facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage immigration to "all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish National Home."​

Where is the "illegal immigration" criteria?

(COMMENT)

What lawful entity actually stipulates that?

View attachment 235335
​

Zionism is the political movement for national liberation. This movement includes the belief that:

◈ The Jewish people have the right to self-determination.
◈ The Jewish people have the right to realize their self-determination.
◈ The Jewish people have a right to become a nation like any other nation.​

These are not "terrorist view" but the views held currently under international law and expressed by the Arab Palestinian People.

IF it is the case that the "Zionists are a Terrorist Organization" → THEN it must be the case the Arab Palestinian are equally guilty.

On the matter of "racism," the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) derive this belief from A/RES/3379 (XXX) 10 November 1975 which Determines that zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination. What the HoAP most often forget to disclose (intentionally) is that in A/RES/46/86 16 December 1991 the UN specifically corrected the error and decided to "revoke the determination contained in its resolution 3379 (XXX) of 10 November 1975." The HoAP do this to perpetuate the myths.

(COMMENT)

A "cult," by definition, is dealing with a religious belief directed towards a very specific idea. Zionism is NOT a religious belief structure; but a national liberation movement.

View attachment 235339
​

As you will note, Article 2, Section 1, The Constitution of the WZO updated November 2017, specifically speaks to the aims of Zionism secured under public law.

Most Respectfully,
R

◈ The Jewish people have the right to self-determination.
◈ The Jewish people have the right to realize their self-determination.
◈ The Jewish people have a right to become a nation like any other nation.

And, according to you, the Palestinians do not have rights.

The Palestinian people's have those same exact rights.

They just don't have the right to murder civilians. No one has that right.

Israel murders civilians all the time yet Palestinian resistance is expected to be pristine. If the international community would enforce international law, that problem would be solved.

No they are not expected to be pristine. Just, for a start - stop targeting civilians. Explain please how you can justify creeping into a house at night and murdering every inhabitent right down to the infant? How is that NOT deliberately targeting civilians? How is that in any remote way self defense?

I rest my case. Why should the Palestinians be the only ones who have to follow the rules?

LOL, LOL, LOL

What rules are you talking about which the Palestinians do not follow?

Thou shall "not" kill Jews at every corner, behind every tree, behind every rock?

Thou shall "not" treat Jews as subhumans as they failed to follow Allah, for Allah turned them into Apes and Pigs?

What other rules do they not care to follow which you believe they should not?

 

[Sixties Fan]

Why don't you post the entire quote, for context, rather than attempting to make equivalent things which are not equivalent. It looks an awful lot like projection to me.

Here's the whole quote:

"The Palestinian people has declared war on us, and we must respond with war. Not an operation, not a slow-moving one, not low-intensity, not controlled escalation, no destruction of terror infrastructure, no targeted killings. Enough with the oblique references. This is a war. Words have meanings. This is a war. It is not a war against terror, and not a war against extremists, and not even a war against the Palestinian Authority. These too are forms of avoiding reality. This is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people. Why? Ask them, they started.

I don’t know why it’s so hard for us to define reality with the simple words that language puts at our disposal. Why do we have to make up a new name for the war every other week, just to avoid calling it by its name. What’s so horrifying about understanding that the entire Palestinian people is the enemy? Every war is between two peoples, and in every war the people who started the war, that whole people, is the enemy. A declaration of war is not a war crime. Responding with war certainly is not. Nor is the use of the word “war”, nor a clear definition who the enemy is. Au contraire: the morality of war (yes, there is such a thing) is founded on the assumption that there are wars in this world, and that war is not the normal state of things, and that in wars the enemy is usually an entire people, including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.

And the morality of war knows that it is not possible to refrain from hurting enemy civilians. It does not condemn the British air force, which bombed and totally destroyed the German city of Dresden, or the US planes that destroyed the cities of Poland and wrecked half of Budapest, places whose wretched residents had never done a thing to America, but which had to be destroyed in order to win the war against evil. The morals of war do not require that Russia be brought to trial, though it bombs and destroys towns and neighborhoods in Chechnya. It does not denounce the UN Peacekeeping Forces for killing hundreds of civilians in Angola, nor the NATO forces who bombed Milosevic’s Belgrade, a city with a million civilians, elderly, babies, women, and children. The morals of war accept as correct in principle, not only politically, what America has done in Afghanistan, including the massive bombing of populated places, including the creation of a refugee stream of hundreds of thousands of people who escaped the horrors of war, for thousands of whom there is no home to return to.

And in our war this is sevenfold more correct, because the enemy soldiers hide out among the population, and it is only through its support that they can fight. Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. Actors in the war are those who incite in mosques, who write the murderous curricula for schools, who give shelter, who provide vehicles, and all those who honor and give them their moral support. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there."

While the use of the term "snakes" is abhorrent here, the concept that a war between peoples can only be conducted with the support of those peoples is a valid one. Who is "they" in your quote? The ACTORS who contribute to the war through means other than physical weapons: the imams who incite, the educators who teach, the mothers who raise martyrs, the populace who shelter and celebrate, the government which pays.

This is in NO WAY a call for "vermin control" or genocide. Nor does it reject the status of "civilian". Nor does it claim that people have no right to life. It is the recognition that there is more to war than those who hold the stones in slings or load bullets into guns and that the responsibility lies with ALL the actors. It says (eloquently until the "snakes" part) that the responsibility rests with those who bring war and that the SOLUTION to war is not to stop the guns, its to stop the support.



rylah Is there a connotation to the Hebrew word for "snake" which may be not understood by English speakers?

This is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people. Why? Ask them, they started.

Indeed, the Palestinians should have never gone to Europe to attack the Zionists.

Au contraire: the morality of war (yes, there is such a thing) is founded on the assumption that there are wars in this world, and that war is not the normal state of things, and that in wars the enemy is usually an entire people, including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.

Are you saying that it is OK to send rockets into Israel?

Probably not.

But no doubt, you are.

Civillians here don't lob rockets over walls and fences.

What happened, btw, to all those nice greenhouses the Israelis left behind in Gaza?

Thanks for asking.

Israel shuts off water, dries Gaza greenhouses - WND - WND

I wasn't asking you.

Via Al Jazeera:

updated 9/13/2005 10:25:07 PM

NEVE DEKALIM, Gaza Strip — Palestinians looted dozens of greenhouses on Tuesday, walking off with irrigation hoses, water pumps and plastic sheeting in a blow to fledgling efforts to reconstruct the Gaza Strip.

American Jewish donors had bought more than 3,000 greenhouses from Israeli settlers in Gaza for $14 million last month and transferred them to the Palestinian Authority. Former World Bank President James Wolfensohn, who brokered the deal, put up $500,000 of his own cash.

Palestinian police stood by helplessly Tuesday as looters carted off materials from greenhouses in several settlements, and commanders complained they did not have enough manpower to protect the prized assets. In some instances, there was no security and in others, police even joined the looters, witnesses said.

“We need at least another 70 soldiers. This is just a joke,” said Taysir Haddad, one of 22 security guards assigned to Neve Dekalim, formerly the largest Jewish settlement in Gaza. “We’ve tried to stop as many people as we can, but they’re like locusts.”

The failure of the security forces to prevent scavenging and looting in the settlements after Israel’s troop pullout Monday raised new concerns about Gaza’s future.

Palestinians looted dozens of greenhouses on Tuesday, walking off with irrigation hoses, water pumps and plastic sheeting in a blow to fledgling efforts to reconstruct the Gaza Strip.

The Palestinians needed that stuff to rebuild their greenhouses that Israel bulldozed.

The fool has spoken again.

We are talking about the Greenhouses which Israel left in Gaza in the part where the Jews lived.
They were left intact for the Arabs to use and be able to accomplish some economic success with it.

Instead, the Arabs destroyed them all.

Now, the fool says that the Greenhouses belonged to the Arabs and that the Israeli bulldozed them.