All The News Anti-Israel Posters Will Not Read Or Discuss

[Coyote]

RE: All The News Anti-Israel Posters Will Not Read Or Discuss
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

You are asking the Israelis to put their sovereignty and territorial integrity at risk.

• Fundamentally, positive rights require others to provide you with either a good or service.

The Palestinians do not ask for others to provide anything.

(COMMENT)

The tension and mistrust between the Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) and the Israelis, that has accumulated over the decades of violence have tainted and contaminated any attempt at a fair and just negotiation or settlement of disputes.

There is (absolutely) no reasonable expectation that the "Right of Return" (or anything remotely like it) could happen happen for several generations. Until the semior members of government come from a family that has no previous experience with the Arab-Israeli Conflict. And the parents of the prodigy of that generation haven't even been born yet.

Most Respectfully,
R

The "right of return" for Arabs into Israel has been done already by those Israel decided to allow back. Some have turned to murdering Jews in Israel.

The other "right of return" they refer to, being that of 5 Million Arabs, mostly descendants of those who fought the Jews during the Independence war and left before it started or were expelled afterwards, will never happen.

There are about 20,000 living Arabs who actually fled or were expelled from Israel before, during or after the war.

NONE will be allowed to return.

Many who fled were not allowed back...were not violent, and had their land essentially confiscated through absentee landowner laws.

RE: All The News Anti-Israel Posters Will Not Read Or Discuss
⁜→ theliq, et al,

Well, actually, I was not talking about "Zionists."

(COMMENT)

❖ Not all Israelis are Jews.
❖ Not all Jews are Zionists.
❖ Not all Zionists are Settlers.​

Each nation, state and territorial government has its own immigration laws and its own understanding as to what it means to be an "illegal alien."

There is no question about the following facts.

❖ The Allied Powers assumed the Title and Rights to the territory that was formerly under the Mandate.
❖ The Allied Powers agree that under the Ttile and Rights the assumed by Treaty Law, they would establish a Jewish national Home in the territory.
❖ The Allied Powers assume that under the Ttile and Rights the assumed by Treaty Law, to facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage immigration to "all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish National Home."​

Where is the "illegal immigration" criteria?

(COMMENT)

What lawful entity actually stipulates that?

View attachment 235335
​

Zionism is the political movement for national liberation. This movement includes the belief that:

◈ The Jewish people have the right to self-determination.
◈ The Jewish people have the right to realize their self-determination.
◈ The Jewish people have a right to become a nation like any other nation.​

These are not "terrorist view" but the views held currently under international law and expressed by the Arab Palestinian People.

IF it is the case that the "Zionists are a Terrorist Organization" → THEN it must be the case the Arab Palestinian are equally guilty.

On the matter of "racism," the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) derive this belief from A/RES/3379 (XXX) 10 November 1975 which Determines that zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination. What the HoAP most often forget to disclose (intentionally) is that in A/RES/46/86 16 December 1991 the UN specifically corrected the error and decided to "revoke the determination contained in its resolution 3379 (XXX) of 10 November 1975." The HoAP do this to perpetuate the myths.

(COMMENT)

A "cult," by definition, is dealing with a religious belief directed towards a very specific idea. Zionism is NOT a religious belief structure; but a national liberation movement.

View attachment 235339
​

As you will note, Article 2, Section 1, The Constitution of the WZO updated November 2017, specifically speaks to the aims of Zionism secured under public law.

Most Respectfully,
R

◈ The Jewish people have the right to self-determination.
◈ The Jewish people have the right to realize their self-determination.
◈ The Jewish people have a right to become a nation like any other nation.

And, according to you, the Palestinians do not have rights.

The Palestinian people's have those same exact rights.

They just don't have the right to murder civilians. No one has that right.

I don't see the Palestinians living in their homeland.

There are Arab Israeli (Palestinian) citizens in Israel, there are Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.

Is all set to right yet? No. But you can't say there are none living there.

All the Jews who have been expelled from Gaza, Hebron, Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria from 1920 to 1948 have had all of their homes, lands, businesses, schools, belongings confiscated by the Arab leaders and Arab population.

Israel had the policy of uniting families. Those were the Arabs who were allowed to return.

"
There are Arab Israeli (Palestinian) citizens in Israel, there are Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza."

Of course there are.

"Is all set to right yet? No. But you can't say there are none living there."

Does not make sense. What do you mean?
Are you saying that Israel says that there were no Arabs living in Israel before 1948? Which source would say that?

Is all set to right? For the Arabs who were forced to flee by their Leaders or fought and were expelled? Yes.

Why Yes. Because all of the Jews expelled from Gaza to Hebron, to Jerusalem to Judea and Samaria are yet to see their lands and belongings and being allowed to return to their former lands and homes.

And let me not forget TranJordan, as since 1925, that is the first time Jews have not been allowed to reside in that part of their ancient homeland.

The right of return isn't multi generational - imo. Whether it is Jews or Arabs. On the other hand it is well documented that many Palestinians were not allowed to return (and not because of violent tendancies) and that confiscating their property was part of Israel's aim in growing their state. Let's not pretend otherwise, that was part of the purpose of those laws.

In terms of what I said "is all set to right yet" - what I meant was the conflict is ongoing, the Palestinians still do not have a state, autonomy, leadership or a voice that can speak for all. The Occupied/Disputed territories are not settled. But Palestinians DO live there...even if, in Area C they are squeezed into tiny discontinous areas.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Some posters insist in picking an extremely small group of Jews who have been harassed and attacked endlessly and have had enough of it and are giving back what they have been given.

It is preferable that they would not act as the Arabs do, but 98 years of Arab attacks, rapes, dismemberment, expulsions, murders of Jews does finally hit some Jews in Israel and in Judea and Samaria and they say enough and start acting on their own in the bad way we see.

The number of times some Jews have attacked Arabs is extremely low when one looks at the endless attacks by Arabs on Jews.

We are not seeing Jews with cars, screw drivers, knives, molotovs, etc going out right after we hear it in the news and do to the Arabs what is constantly being done to the Jews.

There has not been one fiery or explosive balloon sent to Gaza or Areas A and B by any Jews.

As it has been reminded, it is a war.
It has been going on since 1920 when the Husseini Clan decided to start riots threatening all Jews in Mandate Palestine.

Many in the Haredi, and other religious groups, seem to be behind the attacks on Arabs, but it is not because they have not constantly experienced being attacked themselves and being constantly told that they have "stolen" Arab land, when it is the Jews who were expelled from this historical Jewish land of Judea and Samaria in 1948 and everything, land, schools, homes, businesses, etc, stolen from them by the Hashemite Arabs.

And let us not forget, that after Jews were expelled by their own government in 2005 from Gaza and cities in Judea and Samaria, the Arab leaders and the population only see more possibilities of taking more land from the Jews.

Why? Because they are not Muslims.

Because the Arabs managed to get 80% of the Mandate for Palestine designed for the re-creation of the Jewish State, and will never be happy until the other 20% is also in Arab/Muslim hands.

When Muslims accuse the land of being stolen, they are only referring to the fact that the land used to be in Muslim hands, and they want it all to be in Muslim hands, it does not matter which Arab tribe gets it.

But Jews, as we all know, according to Islam, does not have the right to be sovereign over any part of once conquered Muslim land.

Since 1920. It is a WAR. It continues to be the Muslim war against the Jewish rights to be sovereign over any part of their ancient homeland.

Israel does its part, even if not always, in punishing crimes.
Hamas gives candies. The PA, like Hamas, names streets, parks, etc after any Arab who kills Jews.

Jews are not seen as humans. They follow the teachings and repeat constantly that Jews are Ape and Pigs. And that one must remember the Arabian Jewish tribe which was decapitated and turn to slavery, in Khaybar. How those Jews were defeated, is how today's Jews must be defeated.

That is the war Israel faces. That is the level of education in the Arab communities Jews face on a daily basis.

Jewish culture and education is what keeps many more Jews from doing exactly to the Arabs what the Arabs keep doing to the Jews.

If five Arab nations hadn't invaded territory in the British Palestinian mandate in 1948, and the Palestinians had accepted theIr share of the former mandate,maybe none of this would be happening.

As for the refugees; why were they not assimilated into wherever? As with Jews expelled from Arab lands, Indians from Uganda; and to take it further, 6 million DP's in Europe after WW2. What happened to them?

There aren't any refugee camps lingering from that era, as far as I know.

As for the refugees; why were they not assimilated into wherever?

Why is it their job to clean up after Israel?

Because the Arab nations PROLONGED their refugee status far beyond what should have been done. Because they used the Palestinian's refugee status for their own political purposes. Why are the Palestinians so abysmally treated in some of those countries? Stateless, citizenless, rightless. Palestinian refugees in Syria couldn't even FLEE ISIS because they had no papers, no existence and NO PLACE TO GO and that is not just at Israel's feet! It's a combined responsibility that has gone ignored for too long!

Not their job. They need to be back home.

Why is it not their job when they are participants in the conflict every bit as much as Israel? Why do you not call out their mistreatment of Palestinians - for how many years now? Shouldn't this be a shared responsibility between all parties - Palestinians, Israel, the involved Arab States? Why is it ONLY Israel's responsibility?

Where have I Broadbrushed it, when I constantly give examples of Arabs who do live and peace with Jews and want to live in peace with Israel, all the Arabs who get to come to work in Israel, or study in Israel, or get medical help in Israel?

So, you are denying that because all Jews were expelled from their homes in 1948 from that area, that the Jews who now live there would be a bit, if not a lot apprehensive with all the violence coming their way and the endless failures at making the PA come to even discuss a Peace Treaty?
They are supposed to just sit there and take it, I guess.

I really do not know of many First Nation tribes in the Americas, who simply stood by and allowed themselves to be attacked and their lands just taken by the Europeans whether they were doing it by government consent or by their own will, do you?

The Palestinians not only THINK that they have the right to attack Jews, it is written in the PLO charter that they should do so. As I said before, not all Arabs want to attack Jews, many want a normal life, a decent job and salary and that is why there are thousands of them working not only in Israel but in the villages in Judea and Samaria, DESPITE Habbas having attempted to forbid them from doing so a few times. Why would he do that?

And do show me exactly in which Israeli textbooks Jews are being taught that the Arabs are the enemy and inciting them to kill the Arabs anywhere they find them?

Are you aware that many Arab schools in Israel are now opting for the Israeli curriculum which does not teach their children that the Jews are evil and to go out and kill them?

And I will say this ONE MORE TIME.

You are reading mostly, if not ONLY anti Israel sources. I can tell it. Most of us, if not all of us can tell that that is where you get all of your information and all of your links where nothing but bad things about Israeli Jews and policies are coming from. The one about the textbooks is a clear example of it.


When you start reading both sources and then making an actual conclusion from both, and not just one source, you may start to come to see the issues as they really have been and as they really are, and WHY there is no hope for a Peace Treaty with the PA or Hamas with their insistence in following Mohammad's ideology called Islam = Submission.

They want, and will only accept Submission from the Jewish people, exactly as they had it for 1300 years before Israel came to be in 1948.

I read and use mainstream sources most of the time - Israeli newspapers, Haaretz, Times etc. What sources do you use? I think you have your own anti-Palestinian bias here and frankly it's pretty much clear in your statement:

"...following Mohammad's ideology called Islam = Submission" a frequently used anti-muslim canard.

Submission to God. Not unlike Christianity - submission to God and God will take care of you.

The real issue is not which sources either one of us reads.

The real issue is which sources are telling the truth and can either one of us distinguish the truth from the rest.

You may say from your sources that Palestine has no Army.

What is this?

https://www.idf.il/en/minisites/facts-and-figures/hamas/hamas-military-wing/

What do all of these photos portray?

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Isn't Gaza, Palestine? Are they not wearing uniforms? Is it not a military ?

Here is Fatah under Abbas:

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Are they not in uniform? Is it not a military?

I think the truth is not as clear as you want to believe. There are plenty of propoganda sources for both sides trying to spin every situation and Israel is no different than any other nation in conflict in that regard.

Tell me. What has the IDF investigation of Murtaja's murder revealed?

Please name an Israeli propaganda source. One where Jews and non Jews cannot tell the truth from the non truth. Where Israel and its friends spin every situation.

Name the situations Israel has pinned away from what actually happened.

Countering allegations and accusations is not spinning and much less propaganda.

So, give me some real examples of Israel and friends spinning and
doing propaganda to make the world think they are not seeing what they are seeing.

Camera would be one example. There are other less Israel specific sources I've seen used such as Frontpage Mag.

You are not giving me actual examples of where CAMERA has actually written propaganda or spun one thing or another.

Frontpage is a Nazi site.

 

[Sixties Fan]

RE: All The News Anti-Israel Posters Will Not Read Or Discuss
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

You are asking the Israelis to put their sovereignty and territorial integrity at risk.

The Palestinians do not ask for others to provide anything.

(COMMENT)

The tension and mistrust between the Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) and the Israelis, that has accumulated over the decades of violence have tainted and contaminated any attempt at a fair and just negotiation or settlement of disputes.

There is (absolutely) no reasonable expectation that the "Right of Return" (or anything remotely like it) could happen happen for several generations. Until the semior members of government come from a family that has no previous experience with the Arab-Israeli Conflict. And the parents of the prodigy of that generation haven't even been born yet.

Most Respectfully,
R

The "right of return" for Arabs into Israel has been done already by those Israel decided to allow back. Some have turned to murdering Jews in Israel.

The other "right of return" they refer to, being that of 5 Million Arabs, mostly descendants of those who fought the Jews during the Independence war and left before it started or were expelled afterwards, will never happen.

There are about 20,000 living Arabs who actually fled or were expelled from Israel before, during or after the war.

NONE will be allowed to return.

Many who fled were not allowed back...were not violent, and had their land essentially confiscated through absentee landowner laws.

And, according to you, the Palestinians do not have rights.

The Palestinian people's have those same exact rights.

They just don't have the right to murder civilians. No one has that right.

I don't see the Palestinians living in their homeland.

There are Arab Israeli (Palestinian) citizens in Israel, there are Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.

Is all set to right yet? No. But you can't say there are none living there.

All the Jews who have been expelled from Gaza, Hebron, Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria from 1920 to 1948 have had all of their homes, lands, businesses, schools, belongings confiscated by the Arab leaders and Arab population.

Israel had the policy of uniting families. Those were the Arabs who were allowed to return.

"
There are Arab Israeli (Palestinian) citizens in Israel, there are Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza."

Of course there are.

"Is all set to right yet? No. But you can't say there are none living there."

Does not make sense. What do you mean?
Are you saying that Israel says that there were no Arabs living in Israel before 1948? Which source would say that?

Is all set to right? For the Arabs who were forced to flee by their Leaders or fought and were expelled? Yes.

Why Yes. Because all of the Jews expelled from Gaza to Hebron, to Jerusalem to Judea and Samaria are yet to see their lands and belongings and being allowed to return to their former lands and homes.

And let me not forget TranJordan, as since 1925, that is the first time Jews have not been allowed to reside in that part of their ancient homeland.

The right of return isn't multi generational - imo. Whether it is Jews or Arabs. On the other hand it is well documented that many Palestinians were not allowed to return (and not because of violent tendancies) and that confiscating their property was part of Israel's aim in growing their state. Let's not pretend otherwise, that was part of the purpose of those laws.

In terms of what I said "is all set to right yet" - what I meant was the conflict is ongoing, the Palestinians still do not have a state, autonomy, leadership or a voice that can speak for all. The Occupied/Disputed territories are not settled. But Palestinians DO live there...even if, in Area C they are squeezed into tiny discontinous areas.

Jews do not ask for a right of return. Muslims do. In order to overrun Israel and turn the State a Jewish minority.

There would have been no way of Israel "growing their State" by not allowing ALL of the Arabs back. Grow into what as there was no room to grow in what became Israel between 1948 and 1967 before that last war was fought?

The Arab Palestinians do not have a State because the Arab League demands that that there will be no State while Israel exists.

They do have a government in Gaza and the P. A. . Those leaders teach and do whatever they want to do, keep money for themselves, continue to incite against Israel.
According to yourself they do not have leadership? Really.

Hamas, the PLO, Fatah, Abbas, none of them are a leadership.
They live in a vacuum of lack of leadership.

They do not have a leadership which speaks for all because each group wants final power for themselves.
Hamas wants nothing to do with Fatah and the PLO.
They HAVE Gaza and they mean to keep it.

In Area C the Arabs live where they built, the Jews live where they built. And the Arabs were not expelled as the Arabs expelled the Jews in 1948.
From 1948 until 1967, no Jews in ALL of Judea and Samaria and the previously known Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem, which is now Arab.

Area C needs to remain in Israeli hands. All Arabs remain. They choose if they want to become citizens or only residents of Israel, as it is will all Arabs living in Israel.

No Jews in Gaza.
No Jews in TransJordan
No in Jews in Area A
No Jews in Area B

I think it says it all.

 

[Coyote]

... Your constant claim of non-equivalence is, imo, just a way of excusing the behavior of settlers towards the Palestinians in their area.
... and frankly the constant claim that they are strikes me as a way to excuse bad behavior, abuses and injustice. Is it?

It is not. Throwing stones, as example, is bad behaviour no matter who is doing it. And there must be consequences for those doing it, no matter who that is. Period.

My continued calling you out on the false equivalence concerns the larger picture. You keep trying to draw an equivalence between the Jewish people and the Arab people in terms of their behaviour and ideology (within the context of the conflict). You keep trying to say that, "Jews are just as bad as Arabs". It it not true. It is a false equivalence.

And you know this, because you latch on to the one thing where they are somewhat equivalent -- stone throwing -- and neglect to mention indiscriminate rockets, stabbings, murdering of entire families, ideologies such as "ripping the hearts out of Jews", Jewish lives are not protected under international law, bombings, kite fires .... I could go on, but you get the idea.

The scope, the frequency, the ideology behind the two sides of the conflict are not in any way equivalent.

Throwing stones is a PERFECT example: the same crime, two different people, two different outcomes. It is absolutely equivalent: the aims are to injure, terrify, hurt, drive out. That is the ideology of each stone lobber.

Murder, rockets, stabbing etc are different crimes and certainly not equivalent to stone throwing nor am I attempting to draw an equivalency between that and stone throwing.

And, for the record because I know this will get jumped on and distorted - I DO NOT AGREE with the view and I DO NOT AGREE with targeting civilians who EVER.

Ditto.

But if you justify (and excuse it) on the Israeli side, you can hardly apply a different standard to the Palestinians.

I am not justifying it or excusing it. I'm saying that the quote, in context, does not say what you think it says. It does not call for the murder of civilians. Nor does it imply that the Jewish people think of Arabs as "vermin". That is you projecting.

She is a strong supporter of the settlers, and considered far right - yes? Has she attempted to rein in the settler violence? Spoken out against it? Done anything to curb it? Has she said anything to make one think she does not consider them vermin? She called them snakes after all.

Adult settlers stoning children. Why? What do they think those kids are? Humans? Or vermin? What is their excuse?

And you don't see how these kind of things FEED an ongoing anger and hatred of Israel on the Palestinian side? You really can't see it?

Of course I see it. Further, I understand it very well, due to the nature of my work teaching about abusive relationships. Its a subtle way of making the victim responsible for the anger, hatred and subsequent bad behaviour of the abuser.

Totally disagree because Israel is not just a victim. Israel is also a participant in fueling violence. That is kind of like my saying I can enter your house, slap your kids, take food out of the fridge, muck up your garden and if you stand up to it or retaliate - you are the abuser. At some point the "victim" is no longer a victim. The "victim's" actions are part of what is perpetrating the problems. You are not a victim. Who are the victims? The family who who was murdered sleeping in their home. The family who was burned to death in a firebomb attack. The state of Israel, expanding and building settlements, creating laws to make it harder for Palestinians to fight for their rights in courts, and putting juveniles under military justice is NOT a victim. The Palestinian leadership - rewarding terrorist attacks on civilians with monetary payments, encouraging rocket attacks into Israel's civilian population is NOT a victim. They are PARTICIPANTS in the problem.

 

[Coyote]

RE: All The News Anti-Israel Posters Will Not Read Or Discuss
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

You are asking the Israelis to put their sovereignty and territorial integrity at risk.

(COMMENT)

The tension and mistrust between the Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) and the Israelis, that has accumulated over the decades of violence have tainted and contaminated any attempt at a fair and just negotiation or settlement of disputes.

There is (absolutely) no reasonable expectation that the "Right of Return" (or anything remotely like it) could happen happen for several generations. Until the semior members of government come from a family that has no previous experience with the Arab-Israeli Conflict. And the parents of the prodigy of that generation haven't even been born yet.

Most Respectfully,
R

The "right of return" for Arabs into Israel has been done already by those Israel decided to allow back. Some have turned to murdering Jews in Israel.

The other "right of return" they refer to, being that of 5 Million Arabs, mostly descendants of those who fought the Jews during the Independence war and left before it started or were expelled afterwards, will never happen.

There are about 20,000 living Arabs who actually fled or were expelled from Israel before, during or after the war.

NONE will be allowed to return.

Many who fled were not allowed back...were not violent, and had their land essentially confiscated through absentee landowner laws.

The Palestinian people's have those same exact rights.

They just don't have the right to murder civilians. No one has that right.

I don't see the Palestinians living in their homeland.

There are Arab Israeli (Palestinian) citizens in Israel, there are Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.

Is all set to right yet? No. But you can't say there are none living there.

All the Jews who have been expelled from Gaza, Hebron, Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria from 1920 to 1948 have had all of their homes, lands, businesses, schools, belongings confiscated by the Arab leaders and Arab population.

Israel had the policy of uniting families. Those were the Arabs who were allowed to return.

"
There are Arab Israeli (Palestinian) citizens in Israel, there are Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza."

Of course there are.

"Is all set to right yet? No. But you can't say there are none living there."

Does not make sense. What do you mean?
Are you saying that Israel says that there were no Arabs living in Israel before 1948? Which source would say that?

Is all set to right? For the Arabs who were forced to flee by their Leaders or fought and were expelled? Yes.

Why Yes. Because all of the Jews expelled from Gaza to Hebron, to Jerusalem to Judea and Samaria are yet to see their lands and belongings and being allowed to return to their former lands and homes.

And let me not forget TranJordan, as since 1925, that is the first time Jews have not been allowed to reside in that part of their ancient homeland.

The right of return isn't multi generational - imo. Whether it is Jews or Arabs. On the other hand it is well documented that many Palestinians were not allowed to return (and not because of violent tendancies) and that confiscating their property was part of Israel's aim in growing their state. Let's not pretend otherwise, that was part of the purpose of those laws.

In terms of what I said "is all set to right yet" - what I meant was the conflict is ongoing, the Palestinians still do not have a state, autonomy, leadership or a voice that can speak for all. The Occupied/Disputed territories are not settled. But Palestinians DO live there...even if, in Area C they are squeezed into tiny discontinous areas.

Jews do not ask for a right of return. Muslims do. In order to overrun Israel and turn the State a Jewish minority.

There would have been no way of Israel "growing their State" by not allowing ALL of the Arabs back. Grow into what as there was no room to grow in what became Israel between 1948 and 1967 before that last war was fought?

The Arab Palestinians do not have a State because the Arab League demands that that there will be no State while Israel exists.

They do have a government in Gaza and the P. A. . Those leaders teach and do whatever they want to do, keep money for themselves, continue to incite against Israel.
According to yourself they do not have leadership? Really.

Hamas, the PLO, Fatah, Abbas, none of them are a leadership.
They live in a vacuum of lack of leadership.

They do not have a leadership which speaks for all because each group wants final power for themselves.
Hamas wants nothing to do with Fatah and the PLO.
They HAVE Gaza and they mean to keep it.

In Area C the Arabs live where they built, the Jews live where they built. And the Arabs were not expelled as the Arabs expelled the Jews in 1948.
From 1948 until 1967, no Jews in ALL of Judea and Samaria and the previously known Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem, which is now Arab.

Area C needs to remain in Israeli hands. All Arabs remain. They choose if they want to become citizens or only residents of Israel, as it is will all Arabs living in Israel.

No Jews in Gaza.
No Jews in TransJordan
No in Jews in Area A
No Jews in Area B

I think it says it all.

Uh no. Jews do ask for the right of return. They claim their right to return to their ancestral homeland.

 

[Coyote]

RE: All The News Anti-Israel Posters Will Not Read Or Discuss
⁜→ theliq, et al,

Well, actually, I was not talking about "Zionists."

(COMMENT)

❖ Not all Israelis are Jews.
❖ Not all Jews are Zionists.
❖ Not all Zionists are Settlers.​

Each nation, state and territorial government has its own immigration laws and its own understanding as to what it means to be an "illegal alien."

There is no question about the following facts.

❖ The Allied Powers assumed the Title and Rights to the territory that was formerly under the Mandate.
❖ The Allied Powers agree that under the Ttile and Rights the assumed by Treaty Law, they would establish a Jewish national Home in the territory.
❖ The Allied Powers assume that under the Ttile and Rights the assumed by Treaty Law, to facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage immigration to "all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish National Home."​

Where is the "illegal immigration" criteria?

(COMMENT)

What lawful entity actually stipulates that?

View attachment 235335
​

Zionism is the political movement for national liberation. This movement includes the belief that:

◈ The Jewish people have the right to self-determination.
◈ The Jewish people have the right to realize their self-determination.
◈ The Jewish people have a right to become a nation like any other nation.​

These are not "terrorist view" but the views held currently under international law and expressed by the Arab Palestinian People.

IF it is the case that the "Zionists are a Terrorist Organization" → THEN it must be the case the Arab Palestinian are equally guilty.

On the matter of "racism," the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) derive this belief from A/RES/3379 (XXX) 10 November 1975 which Determines that zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination. What the HoAP most often forget to disclose (intentionally) is that in A/RES/46/86 16 December 1991 the UN specifically corrected the error and decided to "revoke the determination contained in its resolution 3379 (XXX) of 10 November 1975." The HoAP do this to perpetuate the myths.

(COMMENT)

A "cult," by definition, is dealing with a religious belief directed towards a very specific idea. Zionism is NOT a religious belief structure; but a national liberation movement.

View attachment 235339
​

As you will note, Article 2, Section 1, The Constitution of the WZO updated November 2017, specifically speaks to the aims of Zionism secured under public law.

Most Respectfully,
R

◈ The Jewish people have the right to self-determination.
◈ The Jewish people have the right to realize their self-determination.
◈ The Jewish people have a right to become a nation like any other nation.

And, according to you, the Palestinians do not have rights.

The Palestinian people's have those same exact rights.

They just don't have the right to murder civilians. No one has that right.

Israel murders civilians all the time yet Palestinian resistance is expected to be pristine. If the international community would enforce international law, that problem would be solved.

No they are not expected to be pristine. Just, for a start - stop targeting civilians. Explain please how you can justify creeping into a house at night and murdering every inhabitent right down to the infant? How is that NOT deliberately targeting civilians? How is that in any remote way self defense?

Israel bombs the crap out of thousands of civilians and when the Palestinians kick up a little sand with a bottle rocket it's OMG they are targeting civilians.

Double standards much?

BTW, those rockets land in villages that the Palestinians were expelled from in 1948.

Those rockets land anyplace they can reach.

Do Israeli Jews have the right to bomb the places now held by Palestinians where they were expelled during the initial conflicts?

 

[Shusha]

Throwing stones is a PERFECT example: the same crime, two different people, two different outcomes. It is absolutely equivalent: the aims are to injure, terrify, hurt, drive out. That is the ideology of each stone lobber.

Because there are additional security concerns when dealing with the enemy. That is why they are under military law.

Because of ALL those other things I mentioned.

You are taking the most narrow of views and saying, "See! They are the same." They are not when you include the larger picture. And you have to include the larger picture here.

 

[Coyote]

If five Arab nations hadn't invaded territory in the British Palestinian mandate in 1948, and the Palestinians had accepted theIr share of the former mandate,maybe none of this would be happening.

As for the refugees; why were they not assimilated into wherever? As with Jews expelled from Arab lands, Indians from Uganda; and to take it further, 6 million DP's in Europe after WW2. What happened to them?

There aren't any refugee camps lingering from that era, as far as I know.

As for the refugees; why were they not assimilated into wherever?

Why is it their job to clean up after Israel?

Because the Arab nations PROLONGED their refugee status far beyond what should have been done. Because they used the Palestinian's refugee status for their own political purposes. Why are the Palestinians so abysmally treated in some of those countries? Stateless, citizenless, rightless. Palestinian refugees in Syria couldn't even FLEE ISIS because they had no papers, no existence and NO PLACE TO GO and that is not just at Israel's feet! It's a combined responsibility that has gone ignored for too long!

Not their job. They need to be back home.

Why is it not their job when they are participants in the conflict every bit as much as Israel? Why do you not call out their mistreatment of Palestinians - for how many years now? Shouldn't this be a shared responsibility between all parties - Palestinians, Israel, the involved Arab States? Why is it ONLY Israel's responsibility?

I read and use mainstream sources most of the time - Israeli newspapers, Haaretz, Times etc. What sources do you use? I think you have your own anti-Palestinian bias here and frankly it's pretty much clear in your statement:

"...following Mohammad's ideology called Islam = Submission" a frequently used anti-muslim canard.

Submission to God. Not unlike Christianity - submission to God and God will take care of you.

The real issue is not which sources either one of us reads.

The real issue is which sources are telling the truth and can either one of us distinguish the truth from the rest.

You may say from your sources that Palestine has no Army.

What is this?

https://www.idf.il/en/minisites/facts-and-figures/hamas/hamas-military-wing/

What do all of these photos portray?

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Isn't Gaza, Palestine? Are they not wearing uniforms? Is it not a military ?

Here is Fatah under Abbas:

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Are they not in uniform? Is it not a military?

I think the truth is not as clear as you want to believe. There are plenty of propoganda sources for both sides trying to spin every situation and Israel is no different than any other nation in conflict in that regard.

Tell me. What has the IDF investigation of Murtaja's murder revealed?

Please name an Israeli propaganda source. One where Jews and non Jews cannot tell the truth from the non truth. Where Israel and its friends spin every situation.

Name the situations Israel has pinned away from what actually happened.

Countering allegations and accusations is not spinning and much less propaganda.

So, give me some real examples of Israel and friends spinning and
doing propaganda to make the world think they are not seeing what they are seeing.

Camera would be one example. There are other less Israel specific sources I've seen used such as Frontpage Mag.

You are not giving me actual examples of where CAMERA has actually written propaganda or spun one thing or another.

Frontpage is a Nazi site.

I don't think so...I've seen it used as a source at times so that wouldn't make sense...FrontPage Magazine - Wikipedia

 

[Shusha]

Has she said anything to make one think she does not consider them vermin? She called them snakes after all.

Adult settlers stoning children. Why? What do they think those kids are? Humans? Or vermin? What is their excuse?

Ah. So the default is that Jews think Arabs are vermin? And we have to prove that we don't? That seems to be putting the cart before the horse, don't you think?

What is their excuse? I have no idea. I think its inexcusable, myself.

 

[Coyote]

Throwing stones is a PERFECT example: the same crime, two different people, two different outcomes. It is absolutely equivalent: the aims are to injure, terrify, hurt, drive out. That is the ideology of each stone lobber.

Because there are additional security concerns when dealing with the enemy. That is why they are under military law.

Because of ALL those other things I mentioned.

You are taking the most narrow of views and saying, "See! They are the same." They are not when you include the larger picture. And you have to include the larger picture here.

When you try to make big distinctions, you do one thing. You marginalize the reality of the other. In individual actions which get ignored or excused, they are the same. In individual people - what is the difference between the settler throwing a stone and the Palestinian throwing a stone? Not much.

The larger picture might be different, but it is being used to excuse the many small cruelties and injustices that are allowed to be perpetrated because one side is - over 5 million people - is broadbrushed and demonized.

Tinmore makes one very valid point that I agree with. If the Palestinians in the West Bank object to the spreading of settlements, the taking of their land (which may or may not be their land under the complicated land system but that is an argument for another day), the increasing inability to fight for their rights in courts, then they are labeled the abusers and Israel is free of resonsibility for what happens and is labeled the "victim"? REALLY?

 

[Shusha]

Totally disagree because Israel is not just a victim. Israel is also a participant in fueling violence.

No. Israel is not in any way fueling the violence. The presence of Jews is not fuel for violence.

 

[Sixties Fan]

The "right of return" for Arabs into Israel has been done already by those Israel decided to allow back. Some have turned to murdering Jews in Israel.

The other "right of return" they refer to, being that of 5 Million Arabs, mostly descendants of those who fought the Jews during the Independence war and left before it started or were expelled afterwards, will never happen.

There are about 20,000 living Arabs who actually fled or were expelled from Israel before, during or after the war.

NONE will be allowed to return.

Many who fled were not allowed back...were not violent, and had their land essentially confiscated through absentee landowner laws.

I don't see the Palestinians living in their homeland.

There are Arab Israeli (Palestinian) citizens in Israel, there are Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.

Is all set to right yet? No. But you can't say there are none living there.

All the Jews who have been expelled from Gaza, Hebron, Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria from 1920 to 1948 have had all of their homes, lands, businesses, schools, belongings confiscated by the Arab leaders and Arab population.

Israel had the policy of uniting families. Those were the Arabs who were allowed to return.

"
There are Arab Israeli (Palestinian) citizens in Israel, there are Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza."

Of course there are.

"Is all set to right yet? No. But you can't say there are none living there."

Does not make sense. What do you mean?
Are you saying that Israel says that there were no Arabs living in Israel before 1948? Which source would say that?

Is all set to right? For the Arabs who were forced to flee by their Leaders or fought and were expelled? Yes.

Why Yes. Because all of the Jews expelled from Gaza to Hebron, to Jerusalem to Judea and Samaria are yet to see their lands and belongings and being allowed to return to their former lands and homes.

And let me not forget TranJordan, as since 1925, that is the first time Jews have not been allowed to reside in that part of their ancient homeland.

The right of return isn't multi generational - imo. Whether it is Jews or Arabs. On the other hand it is well documented that many Palestinians were not allowed to return (and not because of violent tendancies) and that confiscating their property was part of Israel's aim in growing their state. Let's not pretend otherwise, that was part of the purpose of those laws.

In terms of what I said "is all set to right yet" - what I meant was the conflict is ongoing, the Palestinians still do not have a state, autonomy, leadership or a voice that can speak for all. The Occupied/Disputed territories are not settled. But Palestinians DO live there...even if, in Area C they are squeezed into tiny discontinous areas.

Jews do not ask for a right of return. Muslims do. In order to overrun Israel and turn the State a Jewish minority.

There would have been no way of Israel "growing their State" by not allowing ALL of the Arabs back. Grow into what as there was no room to grow in what became Israel between 1948 and 1967 before that last war was fought?

The Arab Palestinians do not have a State because the Arab League demands that that there will be no State while Israel exists.

They do have a government in Gaza and the P. A. . Those leaders teach and do whatever they want to do, keep money for themselves, continue to incite against Israel.
According to yourself they do not have leadership? Really.

Hamas, the PLO, Fatah, Abbas, none of them are a leadership.
They live in a vacuum of lack of leadership.

They do not have a leadership which speaks for all because each group wants final power for themselves.
Hamas wants nothing to do with Fatah and the PLO.
They HAVE Gaza and they mean to keep it.

In Area C the Arabs live where they built, the Jews live where they built. And the Arabs were not expelled as the Arabs expelled the Jews in 1948.
From 1948 until 1967, no Jews in ALL of Judea and Samaria and the previously known Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem, which is now Arab.

Area C needs to remain in Israeli hands. All Arabs remain. They choose if they want to become citizens or only residents of Israel, as it is will all Arabs living in Israel.

No Jews in Gaza.
No Jews in TransJordan
No in Jews in Area A
No Jews in Area B

I think it says it all.

Uh no. Jews do ask for the right of return. They claim their right to return to their ancestral homeland.

Ah, THEIR ancestral homeland. Not someone else's ancestral homeland.

But, the Jews have not, as the Arabs have asked to return to Israel, asked to return to their homes in TranJordan. Or demand a return to Gaza (unless Hamas does not stop its war against Israel, it may just happen someday), or a return to Sheshem (Nablus), Jericho and all the other Jewish cities where Jews lived before 1948 which are now mainly or mostly Arabs, do they ?

So, just to be clear, did the Jews have the right to return and recreate their nation ON the territory of their ancient homeland, or not?
A Territory which went from 100% to 22% by 1925, and now is at 20% after 2005, with the Arabs wanting more of it.

And why the Husseini clan and other Muslims become so against it, while others were so for it? Why those against living in peace with the Jews won over those who wanted to live in peace with the Jews?

 

[Coyote]

Has she said anything to make one think she does not consider them vermin? She called them snakes after all.

Adult settlers stoning children. Why? What do they think those kids are? Humans? Or vermin? What is their excuse?

Ah. So the default is that Jews think Arabs are vermin? And we have to prove that we don't? That seems to be putting the cart before the horse, don't you think?

What is their excuse? I have no idea. I think its inexcusable, myself.

Uh no. Please DO NOT take what I say and add your words to it.

I am talking about a specific group of Israeli's.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Why is it their job to clean up after Israel?

Because the Arab nations PROLONGED their refugee status far beyond what should have been done. Because they used the Palestinian's refugee status for their own political purposes. Why are the Palestinians so abysmally treated in some of those countries? Stateless, citizenless, rightless. Palestinian refugees in Syria couldn't even FLEE ISIS because they had no papers, no existence and NO PLACE TO GO and that is not just at Israel's feet! It's a combined responsibility that has gone ignored for too long!

Not their job. They need to be back home.

Why is it not their job when they are participants in the conflict every bit as much as Israel? Why do you not call out their mistreatment of Palestinians - for how many years now? Shouldn't this be a shared responsibility between all parties - Palestinians, Israel, the involved Arab States? Why is it ONLY Israel's responsibility?

The real issue is not which sources either one of us reads.

The real issue is which sources are telling the truth and can either one of us distinguish the truth from the rest.

You may say from your sources that Palestine has no Army.

What is this?

https://www.idf.il/en/minisites/facts-and-figures/hamas/hamas-military-wing/

What do all of these photos portray?

View attachment 235366
View attachment 235368
View attachment 235371
View attachment 235369
View attachment 235372
View attachment 235370
View attachment 235367
View attachment 235373

Isn't Gaza, Palestine? Are they not wearing uniforms? Is it not a military ?

Here is Fatah under Abbas:

View attachment 235374
View attachment 235375
View attachment 235376
View attachment 235379
View attachment 235381
View attachment 235377
View attachment 235378
View attachment 235380

Are they not in uniform? Is it not a military?

I think the truth is not as clear as you want to believe. There are plenty of propoganda sources for both sides trying to spin every situation and Israel is no different than any other nation in conflict in that regard.

Tell me. What has the IDF investigation of Murtaja's murder revealed?

Please name an Israeli propaganda source. One where Jews and non Jews cannot tell the truth from the non truth. Where Israel and its friends spin every situation.

Name the situations Israel has pinned away from what actually happened.

Countering allegations and accusations is not spinning and much less propaganda.

So, give me some real examples of Israel and friends spinning and
doing propaganda to make the world think they are not seeing what they are seeing.

Camera would be one example. There are other less Israel specific sources I've seen used such as Frontpage Mag.

You are not giving me actual examples of where CAMERA has actually written propaganda or spun one thing or another.

Frontpage is a Nazi site.

I don't think so...I've seen it used as a source at times so that wouldn't make sense...FrontPage Magazine - Wikipedia

I was confusing with some other site.

What articles spin or are merely propaganda from it?

 

[Coyote]

Many who fled were not allowed back...were not violent, and had their land essentially confiscated through absentee landowner laws.
There are Arab Israeli (Palestinian) citizens in Israel, there are Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza.

Is all set to right yet? No. But you can't say there are none living there.

All the Jews who have been expelled from Gaza, Hebron, Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria from 1920 to 1948 have had all of their homes, lands, businesses, schools, belongings confiscated by the Arab leaders and Arab population.

Israel had the policy of uniting families. Those were the Arabs who were allowed to return.

"
There are Arab Israeli (Palestinian) citizens in Israel, there are Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza."

Of course there are.

"Is all set to right yet? No. But you can't say there are none living there."

Does not make sense. What do you mean?
Are you saying that Israel says that there were no Arabs living in Israel before 1948? Which source would say that?

Is all set to right? For the Arabs who were forced to flee by their Leaders or fought and were expelled? Yes.

Why Yes. Because all of the Jews expelled from Gaza to Hebron, to Jerusalem to Judea and Samaria are yet to see their lands and belongings and being allowed to return to their former lands and homes.

And let me not forget TranJordan, as since 1925, that is the first time Jews have not been allowed to reside in that part of their ancient homeland.

The right of return isn't multi generational - imo. Whether it is Jews or Arabs. On the other hand it is well documented that many Palestinians were not allowed to return (and not because of violent tendancies) and that confiscating their property was part of Israel's aim in growing their state. Let's not pretend otherwise, that was part of the purpose of those laws.

In terms of what I said "is all set to right yet" - what I meant was the conflict is ongoing, the Palestinians still do not have a state, autonomy, leadership or a voice that can speak for all. The Occupied/Disputed territories are not settled. But Palestinians DO live there...even if, in Area C they are squeezed into tiny discontinous areas.

Jews do not ask for a right of return. Muslims do. In order to overrun Israel and turn the State a Jewish minority.

There would have been no way of Israel "growing their State" by not allowing ALL of the Arabs back. Grow into what as there was no room to grow in what became Israel between 1948 and 1967 before that last war was fought?

The Arab Palestinians do not have a State because the Arab League demands that that there will be no State while Israel exists.

They do have a government in Gaza and the P. A. . Those leaders teach and do whatever they want to do, keep money for themselves, continue to incite against Israel.
According to yourself they do not have leadership? Really.

Hamas, the PLO, Fatah, Abbas, none of them are a leadership.
They live in a vacuum of lack of leadership.

They do not have a leadership which speaks for all because each group wants final power for themselves.
Hamas wants nothing to do with Fatah and the PLO.
They HAVE Gaza and they mean to keep it.

In Area C the Arabs live where they built, the Jews live where they built. And the Arabs were not expelled as the Arabs expelled the Jews in 1948.
From 1948 until 1967, no Jews in ALL of Judea and Samaria and the previously known Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem, which is now Arab.

Area C needs to remain in Israeli hands. All Arabs remain. They choose if they want to become citizens or only residents of Israel, as it is will all Arabs living in Israel.

No Jews in Gaza.
No Jews in TransJordan
No in Jews in Area A
No Jews in Area B

I think it says it all.

Uh no. Jews do ask for the right of return. They claim their right to return to their ancestral homeland.

Ah, THEIR ancestral homeland. Not someone else's ancestral homeland.

But, the Jews have not, as the Arabs have asked to return to Israel, asked to return to their homes in TranJordan. Or demand a return to Gaza (unless Hamas does not stop its war against Israel, it may just happen someday), or a return to Sheshem (Nablus), Jericho and all the other Jewish cities where Jews lived before 1948 which are now mainly or mostly Arabs, do they ?

So, just to be clear, did the Jews have the right to return and recreate their nation ON the territory of their ancient homeland, or not?
A Territory which went from 100% to 22% by 1925, and now is at 20% after 2005, with the Arabs wanting more of it.

And why the Husseini clan and other Muslims become so against it, while others were so for it? Why those against living in peace with the Jews won over those who wanted to live in peace with the Jews?

It is the ancestral homeland of both Jews and Palestinians. Denying either's rights is a big part of the problem.

My view is extremely basic and unpopular. There is no "right of return" other than to those directly effected by displacement. Not their grandchildren. Not their great great great greats. Any other "rights of return" are defined solely by the state that controls the territory at any given time.

 

[Shusha]

Tinmore makes one very valid point that I agree with. If the Palestinians in the West Bank object to the spreading of settlements, the taking of their land (which may or may not be their land under the complicated land system but that is an argument for another day), the increasing inability to fight for their rights in courts, then they are labeled the abusers and Israel is free of resonsibility for what happens and is labeled the "victim"? REALLY?

Arabs object to the presence of Jews. That is a problem. That makes the Jewish people the victims.

 

[Coyote]

Tinmore makes one very valid point that I agree with. If the Palestinians in the West Bank object to the spreading of settlements, the taking of their land (which may or may not be their land under the complicated land system but that is an argument for another day), the increasing inability to fight for their rights in courts, then they are labeled the abusers and Israel is free of resonsibility for what happens and is labeled the "victim"? REALLY?

Arabs object to the presence of Jews. That is a problem. That makes the Jewish people the victims.

I disagree. No one is absolved from the consequences of their actions and that is what you are doing by labeling one entire group as "victims". They are not. They are a powerful nuclear capable nation. They have one of the most advanced armies in the region, top notch weaponry, intelligence and organizational capabilities. To classify them as an entire group of victims is absolving them of any responsibilty for the situation and that is just wrong. It's just as wrong as the constant categorizing of Palestinians as victims. Victims are individuals.

 

[Shusha]

Coyote,

I don't seem to have the patience today to write long posts. (Maybe I need another cup of tea!)

 

[Coyote]

Coyote,

I don't seem to have the patience today to write long posts. (Maybe I need another cup of tea!)

Well...I can relate. That is why I get short sometimes too

 

[Sixties Fan]

Has she said anything to make one think she does not consider them vermin? She called them snakes after all.

Adult settlers stoning children. Why? What do they think those kids are? Humans? Or vermin? What is their excuse?

Ah. So the default is that Jews think Arabs are vermin? And we have to prove that we don't? That seems to be putting the cart before the horse, don't you think?

What is their excuse? I have no idea. I think its inexcusable, myself.

Uh no. Please DO NOT take what I say and add your words to it.

I am talking about a specific group of Israeli's.

Yes, absolutely. One or more specific groups of Jews in Judea and Samaria, as I said before, are FED UP, with the endless violence and lies aimed at making them move out of their homes again, since 1948.

So, yes, these particular groups do not give a darn about what happens, they are tired of being attacked and being told that they have "stolen" Palestinian land and must move out, someday somehow.

Does the stoning happen on a daily basis against those children or did it happen once or twice and not happening anymore?
What is Israel supposed to do about it?
How can the IDF or police be everywhere when Arabs or Jews are stoned?

Not every Arab who throws stones is caught?
And the Arab side means not only to harm, but to kill as they have succeeded many times in doing so, not only in Judea and Samaria
but in Israel as well.

Is the intent of the Jews to murder the Arabs? Or just to scare?

Against Children? Sure it is despicable.

Just as despicable as the Arabs who were throwing any size rocks at Scout like Jewish children who were hiking with their leaders and wounded some of them. Or any other example.

But you are telling us that the Jews stoning Arabs is at the same volume, numbers as the Arabs stoning Jews?

From what source?

As far as I know there is no such statistic.

Here is an example of Arabs throwing rocks at Jews in 2011 and even telling how respectful of the Temple Mount they were around 1948.

Video: Arabs Attack at Kotel

Muslims threw rocks at Jewish worshipers praying at the Kotel after Friday’s Muslim prayers. No one was reported hurt.
--------------

Veteran Jerusalemites have testified that before Jordan occupied the Wall in 1948, Arabs had a habit of intentionally driving their donkeys through the crowd of Jewish worshipers at the Kotel in order to harass and humiliate them. Arabs have also repeatedly ransacked the Tomb of Joseph in Shechem and recently gunned down a Jewish man who had come to pray there.

-------------------

The point is.......that Muslims have never respected Jews on their own ancient homeland to begin with. There are lots of examples of it, and the recent or not recent incidents are nothing new.

Before 1936 and before Israel became Independent Jews were attacked all the time with no chance to defend themselves, especially if they tried to pray at their holy sites. There was no respect for them from those who viewed the Jews as having no rights at all , and all the land being Muslim land.

Those ideas from the Arab Muslim side continue to this day.

They attack with rocks, molotov, etc etc because they do not acknowledge ANY Jewish right to ANY of the land.