Another Liberal myth: Separation of church and state is not in the constitution

[Dr.Drock]

Like it or not we are a Christan Nation.
When 76% of the people in this nation are Christians it makes it a Christan Nation.
The percentage was even higher when we became a nation in 1776.
Our founders intended for God to be included in our Government. But that it should be non- denominational so that all religions would be included.
That is what they do at prayer every morning for the House, Senate and Supreme court. The prayers are always non-denominational,but led by Christians as well as other's.
Just like Muslim nations. When Muslims make up the majority of the nation it is a Muslim Nation.
It is atheists who have tried to get God out of our government ever since the 1960's
Separation of Church and State means that our Government can not endorse a certain type of religion.
It was never, that God should be out of our Government.

Bullshit.

When people talk about the US being "a Christian Nation", they are really saying that Christians should be put in a privileged position over all other faiths in this country.

They may say, it really means just that "Christians are a majority" but its a lie. The phrase is meant to be taken as something else entirely. That's just what they say in polite company.

Usually the conversation also goes to "The US is founded on Judeo-Christian principles" but its also bullshit since none of them can find any reference within the religious texts of those two faiths which apply beyond what is common to virtually all religions.

And you are dead wrong.

When most people, including myself, talk about the U.S. being a Christian nation, I/we are recognizing the fact that the first settlers were Christians seeking religious freedom for themselves. The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were written by Christians who, because they were Christian, understood and believed and pronounced that unalienable rights are from God and these must be recognized and protected.

The Founders to a man believed that the Constitution would work only for a moral, religious, and Christian people who understood the concept of unalienable rights and self governance.

They also understood that in order for unalienable rights to be reognized and defended, that no religion, including Christianity, no ideology, no thoughts, ideas, values, or concepts of humankind would be given preference over any other or afforded power over any other.

Whether religious or not, whether Christian or not, all Americans should thank God (or whatever) that this is a Christian nation founded by Christians and structured on Christian principles of unalienable rights for otherwise we would not enjoy the freedoms, opportunities, options, choices, and self determination that we enjoy.

Yes I'm thankful for unalienable rights provided by the founders, but I'm not thankful for christian unalienable rights. I won't categorically call them that, especially since not all our founders were christian and many of them wanted no part in religion.

 

[CryingKoala]

Like it or not we are a Christan Nation.
When 76% of the people in this nation are Christians it makes it a Christan Nation.
The percentage was even higher when we became a nation in 1776.
Our founders intended for God to be included in our Government. But that it should be non- denominational so that all religions would be included.
That is what they do at prayer every morning for the House, Senate and Supreme court. The prayers are always non-denominational,but led by Christians as well as other's.
Just like Muslim nations. When Muslims make up the majority of the nation it is a Muslim Nation.
It is atheists who have tried to get God out of our government ever since the 1960's
Separation of Church and State means that our Government can not endorse a certain type of religion.
It was never, that God should be out of our Government.

Bullshit.

When people talk about the US being "a Christian Nation", they are really saying that Christians should be put in a privileged position over all other faiths in this country.

They may say, it really means just that "Christians are a majority" but its a lie. The phrase is meant to be taken as something else entirely. That's just what they say in polite company.

Usually the conversation also goes to "The US is founded on Judeo-Christian principles" but its also bullshit since none of them can find any reference within the religious texts of those two faiths which apply beyond what is common to virtually all religions.

And you are dead wrong.

When most people, including myself, talk about the U.S. being a Christian nation, I/we are recognizing the fact that the first settlers were Christians seeking religious freedom for themselves. The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were written by Christians who, because they were Christian, understood and believed and pronounced that unalienable rights are from God and these must be recognized and protected.

The Founders to a man believed that the Constitution would work only for a moral, religious, and Christian people who understood the concept of unalienable rights and self governance.

They also understood that in order for unalienable rights to be reognized and defended, that no religion, including Christianity, no ideology, no thoughts, ideas, values, or concepts of humankind would be given preference over any other or afforded power over any other.

Whether religious or not, whether Christian or not, all Americans should thank God (or whatever) that this is a Christian nation founded by Christians and structured on Christian principles of unalienable rights for otherwise we would not enjoy the freedoms, opportunities, options, choices, and self determination that we enjoy.

No, where you get it wrong is inserting "Christian" or "Christianity" into any of this.

Nothing concerning our freedoms can be attributed to being unique to Christianity or even attributed to it. You are giving praise where it is not due.

If it were the case we would see real and clear citation to the New Testament in the Constitution or even Declaration of Independence. It isn't there. You are not going to find anything beyond the most general things which you will erroneously attribute to being Christian. The reality is, it will be things common to any given faith.

Your take on what it means to be a "Christian nation" rings false on all levels. The ONLY settlers of the colonies were Christians. "Christian" meant something far different back then, than it does today. The only appreciable religious differences as seen by today's standards would have been sectarian ones between Protestant faiths. Your phrase implies that there were other faiths coming to colonize in any appreciable numbers. It would be misleading at the least to phrase it in such a way. The only "Christian" attribution to religious freedom came from persecuted, but influential sects which were solidly secular in their political stance and dogma.

Christianity did not contribute to our freedoms, it was a stated part of European monarchies and integral part of the colonial system prior to the Revolution (except for the 2 colonies which disavowed such things at inception). Our freedoms existed despite it.

 

[koshergrl]

Almost all of our founding fathers were Christians..and many of them were clergymen.

The rumor that they weren't is just a myth.

 

[CryingKoala]

Almost all of our founding fathers were Christians..and many of them were clergymen.

The rumor that they weren't is just a myth.

Like whom? I am curious as to who you are going to cite for this.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Almost all of our founding fathers were Christians..and many of them were clergymen.

The rumor that they weren't is just a myth.

Thomas Paine, James Madison, George Washington, Ethan Allen, Ben Franklin, all pretty important to the founding of our country, all deists.



I agree there were many christians involved in the founding of america, but not all, so you most certainly can't claim the above men would agree that they founded this nation on christian principles and that government and christianity should co-mingle.

 

[Foxfyre]

Bullshit.

When people talk about the US being "a Christian Nation", they are really saying that Christians should be put in a privileged position over all other faiths in this country.

They may say, it really means just that "Christians are a majority" but its a lie. The phrase is meant to be taken as something else entirely. That's just what they say in polite company.

Usually the conversation also goes to "The US is founded on Judeo-Christian principles" but its also bullshit since none of them can find any reference within the religious texts of those two faiths which apply beyond what is common to virtually all religions.

And you are dead wrong.

When most people, including myself, talk about the U.S. being a Christian nation, I/we are recognizing the fact that the first settlers were Christians seeking religious freedom for themselves. The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were written by Christians who, because they were Christian, understood and believed and pronounced that unalienable rights are from God and these must be recognized and protected.

The Founders to a man believed that the Constitution would work only for a moral, religious, and Christian people who understood the concept of unalienable rights and self governance.

They also understood that in order for unalienable rights to be reognized and defended, that no religion, including Christianity, no ideology, no thoughts, ideas, values, or concepts of humankind would be given preference over any other or afforded power over any other.

Whether religious or not, whether Christian or not, all Americans should thank God (or whatever) that this is a Christian nation founded by Christians and structured on Christian principles of unalienable rights for otherwise we would not enjoy the freedoms, opportunities, options, choices, and self determination that we enjoy.

No, where you get it wrong is inserting "Christian" or "Christianity" into any of this.

Nothing concerning our freedoms can be attributed to being unique to Christianity or even attributed to it. You are giving praise where it is not due.

If it were the case we would see real and clear citation to the New Testament in the Constitution or even Declaration of Independence. It isn't there. You are not going to find anything beyond the most general things which you will erroneously attribute to being Christian. The reality is, it will be things common to any given faith.

Your take on what it means to be a "Christian nation" rings false on all levels. The ONLY settlers of the colonies were Christians. "Christian" meant something far different back then, than it does today. The only appreciable religious differences as seen by today's standards would have been sectarian ones between Protestant faiths. Your phrase implies that there were other faiths coming to colonize in any appreciable numbers. It would be misleading at the least to phrase it in such a way. The only "Christian" attribution to religious freedom came from persecuted, but influential sects which were solidly secular in their political stance and dogma.

Christianity did not contribute to our freedoms, it was a stated part of European monarchies and integral part of the colonial system prior to the Revolution (except for the 2 colonies which disavowed such things at inception). Our freedoms existed despite it.

Please name any country, other than the USA, that recognizes and protects the unalienable rights of the people. Any other country that attributes those rights as coming from God and not from the government.

Please name any country that is not predominantly Christian that does not restrict human rights.

Take your time to do your research. But I'll tell you right now, you're going to have a devil of time coming up with one, much less two or three.

And as for the views of the Founders and the Republic they gave us, here are just a few. There are lots and lots and lots more:

George Washington
"I now make it my earnest prayer the God would have you and the State over which you preside, in His holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government; to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the field; and, finally, that he would be most graciously pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind, which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation." June 8, 1783 in a letter to the governors of the states on disbanding the army.

Thomas Jefferson
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." 1781, Query XVIII of his Notes on that State of Virginia.

"My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others..." April 21, 1803 in a letter to Dr. Benjamin.

“The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus....I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

James Madison

"Religion is the basis and Foundation of Government." June 20, 1785"

It is not the talking but the walking and working person that is the true Christian." In a manuscript on the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles, Madison makes this statement.

"We have all been encouraged to feel in the guardianship and guidance of that Almighty Being, whose power regulates the destiny of nations." March 4, 1809 Inaugural Address

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

Benjamin Franklin

"Here is my Creed. I believe in on God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

That the most acceptable service we render to Him is in doing good to His other Children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound Religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever Sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, is the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see." March 9, 1790 in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University

"Heavenly Father, May all revere Thee, And become They dutiful children and faithful subjects. May thy Laws be obeyed on earth as perfectly as they are in Heaven. Provide for us this day as Thou hast hitherto daily done. Forgive us our trespasses, and enable us likewise to forgive those that offended us. Keep us out of temptation and deliver us from Evil." Franklin's own version of the Lord's Prayer

“God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” – Constitutional Convention of 1787, original manuscript of this speech

John Adams

"The Christian religion is above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity. Let the Blackguard Paine say what he will; it is Resignation to God, it is Goodness itself to Man." July 26, 1796, in his diary.

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion..." November 4, 1816 in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation." December 27, 1816 in a letter to Judge F.A. Van der Kemp.

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature. (taken from a letter to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813) Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion at all!!!" But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.

Jesus is benevolence personified, an example for all men… The Christian religion, in its primitive purity and simplicity, I have entertained for more than sixty years. It is the religion of reason, equity, and love; it is the religion of the head and the heart

The anti-Christian forces within our nation--those who yet clamor for a king to be their protector and provider--resist the Christian influence that is such an integral component of our history and culture. They do not understand the concept of unalienable rights and do not embrace the concept of self governance. But as much as they wish to dismiss/ignore the history and the truth, it is there just the same.

 

[Dr.Drock]

And you are dead wrong.

When most people, including myself, talk about the U.S. being a Christian nation, I/we are recognizing the fact that the first settlers were Christians seeking religious freedom for themselves. The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were written by Christians who, because they were Christian, understood and believed and pronounced that unalienable rights are from God and these must be recognized and protected.

The Founders to a man believed that the Constitution would work only for a moral, religious, and Christian people who understood the concept of unalienable rights and self governance.

They also understood that in order for unalienable rights to be reognized and defended, that no religion, including Christianity, no ideology, no thoughts, ideas, values, or concepts of humankind would be given preference over any other or afforded power over any other.

Whether religious or not, whether Christian or not, all Americans should thank God (or whatever) that this is a Christian nation founded by Christians and structured on Christian principles of unalienable rights for otherwise we would not enjoy the freedoms, opportunities, options, choices, and self determination that we enjoy.

No, where you get it wrong is inserting "Christian" or "Christianity" into any of this.

Nothing concerning our freedoms can be attributed to being unique to Christianity or even attributed to it. You are giving praise where it is not due.

If it were the case we would see real and clear citation to the New Testament in the Constitution or even Declaration of Independence. It isn't there. You are not going to find anything beyond the most general things which you will erroneously attribute to being Christian. The reality is, it will be things common to any given faith.

Your take on what it means to be a "Christian nation" rings false on all levels. The ONLY settlers of the colonies were Christians. "Christian" meant something far different back then, than it does today. The only appreciable religious differences as seen by today's standards would have been sectarian ones between Protestant faiths. Your phrase implies that there were other faiths coming to colonize in any appreciable numbers. It would be misleading at the least to phrase it in such a way. The only "Christian" attribution to religious freedom came from persecuted, but influential sects which were solidly secular in their political stance and dogma.

Christianity did not contribute to our freedoms, it was a stated part of European monarchies and integral part of the colonial system prior to the Revolution (except for the 2 colonies which disavowed such things at inception). Our freedoms existed despite it.

Please name any country, other than the USA, that recognizes and protects the unalienable rights of the people. Any other country that attributes those rights as coming from God and not from the government.

Please name any country that is not predominantly Christian that does not restrict human rights.

Take your time to do your research. But I'll tell you right now, you're going to have a devil of time coming up with one, much less two or three.

And as for the views of the Founders and the Republic they gave us, here are just a few. There are lots and lots and lots more:

Benjamin Franklin

"Here is my Creed. I believe in on God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

That the most acceptable service we render to Him is in doing good to His other Children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound Religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever Sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, is the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see." March 9, 1790 in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University

"Heavenly Father, May all revere Thee, And become They dutiful children and faithful subjects. May thy Laws be obeyed on earth as perfectly as they are in Heaven. Provide for us this day as Thou hast hitherto daily done. Forgive us our trespasses, and enable us likewise to forgive those that offended us. Keep us out of temptation and deliver us from Evil." Franklin's own version of the Lord's Prayer

“God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” – Constitutional Convention of 1787, original manuscript of this speech

John Adams

"The Christian religion is above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity. Let the Blackguard Paine say what he will; it is Resignation to God, it is Goodness itself to Man." July 26, 1796, in his diary.

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion..." November 4, 1816 in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation." December 27, 1816 in a letter to Judge F.A. Van der Kemp.

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature. (taken from a letter to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813) Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion at all!!!" But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.

Jesus is benevolence personified, an example for all men… The Christian religion, in its primitive purity and simplicity, I have entertained for more than sixty years. It is the religion of reason, equity, and love; it is the religion of the head and the heart

The anti-Christian forces within our nation--those who yet clamor for a king to be their protector and provider--resist the Christian influence that is such an integral component of our history and culture. They do not understand the concept of unalienable rights and do not embrace the concept of self governance. But as much as they wish to dismiss/ignore the history and the truth, it is there just the same.

1.) i don't know anyone who wants a king
2.) You don't have to be christian to understand unalienable rights or self-governance, as some of our deist founding fathers showed and many current heathen non-believers show.
3.) Many of our founders were christian who said they were founding this nation on their christian principles, many of our founders weren't christian and obviously weren't founding this nation on christian principles, so it's still wrong to only categorize them as christian principles.

 

[Foxfyre]

No, where you get it wrong is inserting "Christian" or "Christianity" into any of this.

Nothing concerning our freedoms can be attributed to being unique to Christianity or even attributed to it. You are giving praise where it is not due.

If it were the case we would see real and clear citation to the New Testament in the Constitution or even Declaration of Independence. It isn't there. You are not going to find anything beyond the most general things which you will erroneously attribute to being Christian. The reality is, it will be things common to any given faith.

Your take on what it means to be a "Christian nation" rings false on all levels. The ONLY settlers of the colonies were Christians. "Christian" meant something far different back then, than it does today. The only appreciable religious differences as seen by today's standards would have been sectarian ones between Protestant faiths. Your phrase implies that there were other faiths coming to colonize in any appreciable numbers. It would be misleading at the least to phrase it in such a way. The only "Christian" attribution to religious freedom came from persecuted, but influential sects which were solidly secular in their political stance and dogma.

Christianity did not contribute to our freedoms, it was a stated part of European monarchies and integral part of the colonial system prior to the Revolution (except for the 2 colonies which disavowed such things at inception). Our freedoms existed despite it.

Please name any country, other than the USA, that recognizes and protects the unalienable rights of the people. Any other country that attributes those rights as coming from God and not from the government.

Please name any country that is not predominantly Christian that does not restrict human rights.

Take your time to do your research. But I'll tell you right now, you're going to have a devil of time coming up with one, much less two or three.

And as for the views of the Founders and the Republic they gave us, here are just a few. There are lots and lots and lots more:

John Adams

"The Christian religion is above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity. Let the Blackguard Paine say what he will; it is Resignation to God, it is Goodness itself to Man." July 26, 1796, in his diary.

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion..." November 4, 1816 in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation." December 27, 1816 in a letter to Judge F.A. Van der Kemp.

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature. (taken from a letter to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813) Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion at all!!!" But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.

Jesus is benevolence personified, an example for all men… The Christian religion, in its primitive purity and simplicity, I have entertained for more than sixty years. It is the religion of reason, equity, and love; it is the religion of the head and the heart

The anti-Christian forces within our nation--those who yet clamor for a king to be their protector and provider--resist the Christian influence that is such an integral component of our history and culture. They do not understand the concept of unalienable rights and do not embrace the concept of self governance. But as much as they wish to dismiss/ignore the history and the truth, it is there just the same.

1.) i don't know anyone who wants a king
2.) You don't have to be christian to understand unalienable rights or self-governance, as some of our deist founding fathers showed and many current heathen non-believers show.
3.) Many of our founders were christian who said they were founding this nation on their christian principles, many of our founders weren't christian and obviously weren't founding this nation on christian principles, so it's still wrong to only categorize them as christian principles.

Even the 'non-believers' among those first patriots agreed with the Christians. You won't be able to find any credible evidence of ANY of the Founders who did not believe in the unalienable rights as coming from God or who did not sign off on that concept. You're right that there are those who are non-religious who embrace the principle, but their numbers were far too few to bring about a new nation. As much as the anti-Christian forces wish to deny it, we are the nation we are because there were Christians willing to put their blood and treasure on the line to make it happen.

You say you don't know anyone who wants a king. And yet you read their posts day in and day out here on USMB, see them on television and hear them on the radio and read their views in newspapers and magazines and journals. These are the ones who can't grasp the concept of unalienable rights and self governance. They want government to be their protector and provider and relieve them of the risk and consequence of being responsible for their own welfare. Such people know nothing of the principles the Founders embraced.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Please name any country, other than the USA, that recognizes and protects the unalienable rights of the people. Any other country that attributes those rights as coming from God and not from the government.

Please name any country that is not predominantly Christian that does not restrict human rights.

Take your time to do your research. But I'll tell you right now, you're going to have a devil of time coming up with one, much less two or three.

And as for the views of the Founders and the Republic they gave us, here are just a few. There are lots and lots and lots more:








The anti-Christian forces within our nation--those who yet clamor for a king to be their protector and provider--resist the Christian influence that is such an integral component of our history and culture. They do not understand the concept of unalienable rights and do not embrace the concept of self governance. But as much as they wish to dismiss/ignore the history and the truth, it is there just the same.

1.) i don't know anyone who wants a king
2.) You don't have to be christian to understand unalienable rights or self-governance, as some of our deist founding fathers showed and many current heathen non-believers show.
3.) Many of our founders were christian who said they were founding this nation on their christian principles, many of our founders weren't christian and obviously weren't founding this nation on christian principles, so it's still wrong to only categorize them as christian principles.

Even the 'non-believers' among those first patriots agreed with the Christians. You won't be able to find any credible evidence of ANY of the Founders who did not believe in the unalienable rights as coming from God or who did not sign off on that concept. You're right that there are those who are non-religious who embrace the principle, but their numbers were far too few to bring about a new nation. As much as the anti-Christian forces wish to deny it, we are the nation we are because there were Christians willing to put their blood and treasure on the line to make it happen.

You say you don't know anyone who wants a king. And yet you read their posts day in and day out here on USMB, see them on television and hear them on the radio and read their views in newspapers and magazines and journals. These are the ones who can't grasp the concept of unalienable rights and self governance. They want government to be their protector and provider and relieve them of the risk and consequence of being responsible for their own welfare. Such people know nothing of the principles the Founders embraced.

No evidence?

Treaty of Tripoli - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

This document submitted and signed by one of the great and most important founders to our country, John Adams.

Was he lying? Were all the senators who unanimously ratified this also lying?

I would think you religious types would be the ones who would be the strongest advocates of the separation of church and state so government can never step in and mess with your religion. I don't have a religion, so gov't can't mess with something I don't have. Sad it appears the opposite is true, on this thread at least.

 

[koshergrl]

Incidentally, the very people fighting so hard to reconstruct the Constitution so that it allows discrimination against people of faith are the same ones who claim intellectual superiority based upon their non-belief...

Kind of interesting, since it has been proven that non-believers are increasingly more and more ignorant and uneducated:

""While we recognize that not everyone wishes to worship, and that religious diversity can be valuable, we also think that the existence of a large group of less educated Americans that is increasingly disconnected from religious institutions is troubling for our society," said Andrew Cherlin, co-author of the study and a professor of sociology and public policy at the Johns Hopkins University. "This development reinforces the social marginalization of less educated Americans who are also increasingly disconnected from the institutions of marriage and work."

Less-educated Americans turning their backs on religion

 

[koshergrl]

1.) i don't know anyone who wants a king
2.) You don't have to be christian to understand unalienable rights or self-governance, as some of our deist founding fathers showed and many current heathen non-believers show.
3.) Many of our founders were christian who said they were founding this nation on their christian principles, many of our founders weren't christian and obviously weren't founding this nation on christian principles, so it's still wrong to only categorize them as christian principles.

Even the 'non-believers' among those first patriots agreed with the Christians. You won't be able to find any credible evidence of ANY of the Founders who did not believe in the unalienable rights as coming from God or who did not sign off on that concept. You're right that there are those who are non-religious who embrace the principle, but their numbers were far too few to bring about a new nation. As much as the anti-Christian forces wish to deny it, we are the nation we are because there were Christians willing to put their blood and treasure on the line to make it happen.

You say you don't know anyone who wants a king. And yet you read their posts day in and day out here on USMB, see them on television and hear them on the radio and read their views in newspapers and magazines and journals. These are the ones who can't grasp the concept of unalienable rights and self governance. They want government to be their protector and provider and relieve them of the risk and consequence of being responsible for their own welfare. Such people know nothing of the principles the Founders embraced.

No evidence?

Treaty of Tripoli - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

This document submitted and signed by one of the great and most important founders to our country, John Adams.

Was he lying? Were all the senators who unanimously ratified this also lying?

I would think you religious types would be the ones who would be the strongest advocates of the separation of church and state so government can never step in and mess with your religion. I don't have a religion, so gov't can't mess with something I don't have. Sad it appears the opposite is true, on this thread at least.

Lol..the treaty of Tripoli in no way trumps the Consitution.

Besides, the alleged passage isn't in existence. It's a fake.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Lol..the treaty of Tripoli in no way trumps the Consitution.

Where does the Constitution say the U.S. government is founded on the Christian religion?

 

[Foxfyre]

1.) i don't know anyone who wants a king
2.) You don't have to be christian to understand unalienable rights or self-governance, as some of our deist founding fathers showed and many current heathen non-believers show.
3.) Many of our founders were christian who said they were founding this nation on their christian principles, many of our founders weren't christian and obviously weren't founding this nation on christian principles, so it's still wrong to only categorize them as christian principles.

Even the 'non-believers' among those first patriots agreed with the Christians. You won't be able to find any credible evidence of ANY of the Founders who did not believe in the unalienable rights as coming from God or who did not sign off on that concept. You're right that there are those who are non-religious who embrace the principle, but their numbers were far too few to bring about a new nation. As much as the anti-Christian forces wish to deny it, we are the nation we are because there were Christians willing to put their blood and treasure on the line to make it happen.

You say you don't know anyone who wants a king. And yet you read their posts day in and day out here on USMB, see them on television and hear them on the radio and read their views in newspapers and magazines and journals. These are the ones who can't grasp the concept of unalienable rights and self governance. They want government to be their protector and provider and relieve them of the risk and consequence of being responsible for their own welfare. Such people know nothing of the principles the Founders embraced.

No evidence?

Treaty of Tripoli - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

This document submitted and signed by one of the great and most important founders to our country, John Adams.

Was he lying? Were all the senators who unanimously ratified this also lying?

I would think you religious types would be the ones who would be the strongest advocates of the separation of church and state so government can never step in and mess with your religion. I don't have a religion, so gov't can't mess with something I don't have. Sad it appears the opposite is true, on this thread at least.

Just as those who clamor for a king are unable to grasp the concept of unalienable rights, so would many be unable to discern the difference between Christian principles and the Christian religion. They probably can't even come up with how Christians and the Christian Religion are two different things.

To say that the nation was founded by Christians on Christian principles in no way suggests that the government is a theocracy or that any theocracy at the Federal level is tolerable. To say that Christians are why the nation is as great as it is does not dismiss contributions made by non-Christians or suggest that all must be Christian or that every Christian principle is unique to Christianity.

There is a vast difference between the First Amendment concept in principle and practice and saying that Christianity is the glue that holds it all together and yet both are realities.

 

[Moonglow]

Almost all of our founding fathers were Christians..and many of them were clergymen.

The rumor that they weren't is just a myth.

And they had the good sense not to have a national religion. Or to associate one religion as being better than others. And to leave religion out of politics.

 

[koshergrl]

Did anyone propose a national religion?

Again, arguing to a false point. That seems to be a trend on this board.

 

[Moonglow]

Did anyone propose a national religion?

Again, arguing to a false point. That seems to be a trend on this board.

You may feel how you want, but again the seperatio0n of church and state is signified by not creating a national religion recognized by the US goverment.
Religion did dominate society during the first 200 years of the USA.
Finally the bond was broken in the modern era.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Even the 'non-believers' among those first patriots agreed with the Christians. You won't be able to find any credible evidence of ANY of the Founders who did not believe in the unalienable rights as coming from God or who did not sign off on that concept. You're right that there are those who are non-religious who embrace the principle, but their numbers were far too few to bring about a new nation. As much as the anti-Christian forces wish to deny it, we are the nation we are because there were Christians willing to put their blood and treasure on the line to make it happen.

You say you don't know anyone who wants a king. And yet you read their posts day in and day out here on USMB, see them on television and hear them on the radio and read their views in newspapers and magazines and journals. These are the ones who can't grasp the concept of unalienable rights and self governance. They want government to be their protector and provider and relieve them of the risk and consequence of being responsible for their own welfare. Such people know nothing of the principles the Founders embraced.

No evidence?

Treaty of Tripoli - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

This document submitted and signed by one of the great and most important founders to our country, John Adams.

Was he lying? Were all the senators who unanimously ratified this also lying?

I would think you religious types would be the ones who would be the strongest advocates of the separation of church and state so government can never step in and mess with your religion. I don't have a religion, so gov't can't mess with something I don't have. Sad it appears the opposite is true, on this thread at least.

Just as those who clamor for a king are unable to grasp the concept of unalienable rights, so would many be unable to discern the difference between Christian principles and the Christian religion. They probably can't even come up with how Christians and the Christian Religion are two different things.

To say that the nation was founded by Christians on Christian principles in no way suggests that the government is a theocracy or that any theocracy at the Federal level is tolerable. To say that Christians are why the nation is as great as it is does not dismiss contributions made by non-Christians or suggest that all must be Christian or that every Christian principle is unique to Christianity.

There is a vast difference between the First Amendment concept in principle and practice and saying that Christianity is the glue that holds it all together and yet both are realities.

So not founded in any sense on christianity could still mean founded on christian principles..............

Okie dokie.

Can I have a link to a government document that says it was founded on christian principles?

 

[CryingKoala]

Please name any country, other than the USA, that recognizes and protects the unalienable rights of the people. Any other country that attributes those rights as coming from God and not from the government.

Please name any country that is not predominantly Christian that does not restrict human rights.

Take your time to do your research. But I'll tell you right now, you're going to have a devil of time coming up with one, much less two or three.

And as for the views of the Founders and the Republic they gave us, here are just a few. There are lots and lots and lots more:

Benjamin Franklin

"Here is my Creed. I believe in on God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

That the most acceptable service we render to Him is in doing good to His other Children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound Religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever Sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, is the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see." March 9, 1790 in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University

"Heavenly Father, May all revere Thee, And become They dutiful children and faithful subjects. May thy Laws be obeyed on earth as perfectly as they are in Heaven. Provide for us this day as Thou hast hitherto daily done. Forgive us our trespasses, and enable us likewise to forgive those that offended us. Keep us out of temptation and deliver us from Evil." Franklin's own version of the Lord's Prayer

“God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” – Constitutional Convention of 1787, original manuscript of this speech

John Adams

"The Christian religion is above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity. Let the Blackguard Paine say what he will; it is Resignation to God, it is Goodness itself to Man." July 26, 1796, in his diary.

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion..." November 4, 1816 in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation." December 27, 1816 in a letter to Judge F.A. Van der Kemp.

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature. (taken from a letter to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813) Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion at all!!!" But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.

Jesus is benevolence personified, an example for all men… The Christian religion, in its primitive purity and simplicity, I have entertained for more than sixty years. It is the religion of reason, equity, and love; it is the religion of the head and the heart

The anti-Christian forces within our nation--those who yet clamor for a king to be their protector and provider--resist the Christian influence that is such an integral component of our history and culture. They do not understand the concept of unalienable rights and do not embrace the concept of self governance. But as much as they wish to dismiss/ignore the history and the truth, it is there just the same.

You are making specious arguments and relying on out of context and in some cases fictitious quotes for support. Please use the links to your cut and pastes. My guess is you are relying on David Bartonisms and Wallbuilders references. It has become a pretty common tactic these days

Some examples of questionable quotes and the blatant use of the phony statements by founders.
Consumer Alert: Wallbuilders Shoddy Workmanship

Some proof of outright fictions pretending to be founders quotes relating to the "US being a Christian Nation"
David Barton: master of myth and misinformation

Lets face it you have a position which depends largely on misrepresentation of fact.


Please name any country, other than the USA, that recognizes and protects the unalienable rights of the people. All democracies.

Any other country that attributes those rights as coming from God and not from the government.

That is an overgenerality and it is not support that it means Christianity was a guiding principle or that our religious freedoms are derived from it.

To say that the nation was founded by Christians on Christian principles in no way suggests that the government is a theocracy or that any theocracy at the Federal level is tolerable.

Except it isn't said like that at all. It is meant entirely to suggest theocracy. There is nothing tolerable about lying about our history in order to forward such an agenda.

To say that Christians are why the nation is as great as it is does not dismiss contributions made by non-Christians or suggest that all must be Christian.

Also a falsehood, since the purpose of such a statement is to blur the distinction between modern Fundamentalist Christian dogma and earlier forms of religious belief. It is meant precisely to take credit for things where it is inappropriate. To exalt Christian Fundamentalist ideas to a position of beyond its non-existent contribution to our foundation.

There is nothing harmless about such assertions. They carry with them an agenda which deeply offends the notion of religious freedom in this country.

 

[Foxfyre]

No evidence?

Treaty of Tripoli - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

This document submitted and signed by one of the great and most important founders to our country, John Adams.

Was he lying? Were all the senators who unanimously ratified this also lying?

I would think you religious types would be the ones who would be the strongest advocates of the separation of church and state so government can never step in and mess with your religion. I don't have a religion, so gov't can't mess with something I don't have. Sad it appears the opposite is true, on this thread at least.

Just as those who clamor for a king are unable to grasp the concept of unalienable rights, so would many be unable to discern the difference between Christian principles and the Christian religion. They probably can't even come up with how Christians and the Christian Religion are two different things.

To say that the nation was founded by Christians on Christian principles in no way suggests that the government is a theocracy or that any theocracy at the Federal level is tolerable. To say that Christians are why the nation is as great as it is does not dismiss contributions made by non-Christians or suggest that all must be Christian or that every Christian principle is unique to Christianity.

There is a vast difference between the First Amendment concept in principle and practice and saying that Christianity is the glue that holds it all together and yet both are realities.

So not founded in any sense on christianity could still mean founded on christian principles..............

Okie dokie.

Can I have a link to a government document that says it was founded on christian principles?

I will refer you to the vast library of documents the Founding Fathers left with us to illustrate their meaning and intent in the Constitution. I posted a tiny sample of those in this thread earlier today.

 

[CryingKoala]

Did anyone propose a national religion?

Again, arguing to a false point. That seems to be a trend on this board.

You may feel how you want, but again the seperatio0n of church and state is signified by not creating a national religion recognized by the US goverment.
Religion did dominate society during the first 200 years of the USA.
Finally the bond was broken in the modern era.

Actually the bond never really existed.

From the outset the Separation of Church and State was part of our colonial character in some form. It was not completely adopted until our foundation at the insistence of those colonies whose heritage was that as a refuge from religious persecution.

Roger Williams (theologian) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When Roger and Mary Williams arrived at Boston on February 5, 1631...Right from the beginning, he sounded three principles which were central to his subsequent career: Separatism, freedom of religion, and separation of church and state.

e believed that soul liberty freedom of conscience, was a gift from God, and that everyone had the natural right to freedom of religion. Religious freedom demanded that church and state be separated. Williams was the first to use the phrase "wall of separation" to describe the relationship of the church and state. He called for a high wall of separation between the "Garden of Christ" and the "Wilderness of the World."

Of William Penn, founder of Pennsylvania
"Penn’s essays and tracts were written to defend Quakers, the Society of Friends, and others who were oppressed by England’s laws. His writings were arguments with prominent political figures and discussions about the colonization of America. Penn wrote advocating the rights of the people of England and attacking government corruption. Penn also advocated and put forth laws in his territories concerning the basis of the constitution of the United States, the right to a fair trial, religious freedom, the democratic election of representatives, and the separation of church and state."