Zone1 Black MAGAs are a clear and present danger

[JoeB131]

Stormfront and AmRen banned me. I do not want them to be shut down. I only ask to be able to express my admiration for Jews and Orientals on them.

I do not fear opinions I disagree with because I am confident in my ability to refute them. For that same reason I welcome challenges to my opinions. Nevertheless, I would like for those challenges to be at the top of this pyramid, rather than at the bottom.

You still use the word "Oriental", which tells me you don't "admire" them all that much.

Yes, we should fear opinions if they are dangerous. We live in a time where we are capable of self-destruction, and we can't go down any wrong paths. World War II should have taught us that.

 

[JoeB131]

Those who want to suppress intellectual freedom are a threat to American democracy. There should be no taboos and sanctions against drawing attention to black social pathology.

MAGA stands for "Make America great again." The "again" MAGAS long for is the 1950's. I lack their support for Trump, but I share their nostalgia for the 1950's. It was a nice time to be a child. Rates of crime, divorce, and illegitimacy were low. Rates of affiliation with a church or synagogue were high. Homosexuals and transsexuals practiced discretion.

Okay, first and foremost, everyone idealizes the time they were a child. Mostly because our parents protected us from the really nasty stuff.

The 1950's where hardly a utopia. You had McCarthyism, you had fear of nuclear annihlation, if you were black you had to ride on the back of the bus, if you were a woman you were forced to stay in an unhappy marriage, if you were gay you had to stay in the closet. I mean, it was a great time to be a straight, white, male. It still is. You just have to tolerate others, which apparently you can't. Jamal took your woman and you just can't stand it.

Reagan appealed to and Trump appeals to nostalgia for the 1950's. I like two other features of that decade. The marginal top tax rate never got below 88%, and was usually higher. One third of the work force belonged to labor unions. Republican politicians do not want to restore those features. I do.

Um, yeah, here's the thing. Nobody paid the top marginal rate, ever. (They usually had enough tax tricks to keep their tax bill low), and while unionization was a good thing, it made our industries complacent.

The real reason why the 1950's were so darned good is that the rest of the world was still kind of a mess. Europe was still a pile of rubble, as were Japan and China. So you could get a good union job with a HS education and make enough money to raise a family.

Now, here's the thing. During the period of industrialization, is when blacks moved out of the South and into the big northern cities. That's where the jobs were. The South didn't like that much, which is why among the many other "crimes" that could get you put into debt peonage, one of them was "Walking along the railroad tracks". Yup, they didn't want you hopping on a train and heading north to a good job where you didn't have to drink out of a separate water fountain.

The problem with your noxious racism is that you like to pretend that Slavery, Jim Crow, Debt Peonage, Miscegnation Laws, Poll Taxes, Literacy Tests, Segregated Schools didn't have a debilitating effect on black people.

 

[Lisa558]

You still use the word "Oriental", which tells me you don't "admire" them all that much.

Yes, we should fear opinions if they are dangerous. We live in a time where we are capable of self-destruction, and we can't go down any wrong paths. World War II should have taught us that.

Your opinions about my religion are dangerous. You’ve said demeaning things about Jews repeatedly.

You’re just another leftist hypocrite, freely spouting your antisemitic views while simultaneously condemning anyone who says anything you perceive as racist.

 

[Hector12]

The problem with your noxious racism is that you like to pretend that Slavery, Jim Crow, Debt Peonage, Miscegnation Laws, Poll Taxes, Literacy Tests, Segregated Schools didn't have a debilitating effect on black people.

Of course that stuff, for which I was never responsible, had "a debilitating effect on black people." Where we disagree is that I do not think it explains or justifies black social pathology now.

Jews experienced persecution and discrimination for two thousand years. This culminated in the Holocaust. Nevertheless, most Jews are wonderful people. I know because I have lived in neighborhoods with lots of Jews in them. I have gone to school with Jews, I have worked with them, and I have dated a few.

 

[Hector12]

IF that were the case, real scienctists would be proving your point, not just quacks like Murray.

Charles Murray is a brilliant, Harvard trained, social scientist. Having read The Bell Curve I only disagree with two of his assertions.

He said that an IQ test is the best way to evaluate job applicants for any job. If I was the manager of a computer shop that used C++ in a Unix environment, I would rather hire an applicant with an IQ of 120 who had studied C++ and Unix, than an applicant with an IQ of 140 who had never learned C++ and Unix.

Also, I would think that a an intelligent person in an unskilled, low wage job with no obvious way of getting a better job would be angry about his lack of opportunities, and that this anger would affect the way he behaved toward his co workers, his boss, and the customers of his company.

 

[Lisa558]

Of course that stuff, for which I was never responsible, had "a debilitating effect on black people." Where we disagree is that I do not think it explains or justifies black social pathology now.

Jews experienced persecution and discrimination for two thousand years. This culminated in the Holocaust. Nevertheless, most Jews are wonderful people. I know because I have lived in neighborhoods with lots of Jews in them. I have gone to school with Jews, I have worked with them, and I have dated a few.

I’ve used that as an example, only to have the leftists (sorry, but it IS leftists who hate the comparison involving Jews’ success despite persecution) to lambast me and attempt to silence me. I have even been reported for making such a comparison.

The fact is that tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of Jews arrived on these shores during the Great Immigration fleeing European persecution - penniless, uneducated, and not speaking a word of English.

A couple of decades later, their children gathered around the radio in their tenement while news blared of Hitler murdering Bube, Zayde, and their aunts and uncles and cousins - and yet, another decade or so after that, they were college grads or business owners living in their new house out in the suburbs.

If impoverished Jews could find a way to succeed despite the roadblocks set up for them (good luck getting into an Ivy if you were Jewish in the 40s or 50s), why can’t poor blacks - after two generations of Affirmative Action - move out of the ghetto?

 

[Hector12]

Your arguments on race were refuted decades ago... it's why all the "studies" you pull up are from the 1960's and have been refuted.

My arguments on race have been condemned and to an extent suppress. They have never been refuted. As more is learned about genetics, and as black rates of crime and illegitimacy increase, my arguments about race are being confirmed.

 

[Lisa558]

My arguments on race have been condemned and to an extent suppress. They have never been refuted. As more is learned about genetics, and as black rates of crime and illegitimacy increase, my arguments about race are being confirmed.

The problem is that leftists (again, sorry) won’t allow that there is SOME correlation between IQ level and life success and instead insist on blaming all failures in the inner-city black communities on racism.

I have experienced plenty of racism in my life. I was with my Dad (RIP) when the salesman at the new upper-middle class housing development bragged to my dad that they‘ve been successful in keeping Jews out….not being allowed to attend a classmate’s birthday party because her father didn’t allow Jews in their house…didn’t attend another friend’s Sweet 16 because the country club didn’t allow Jews as members…

….had the word JEW keyed across my school locker…..had the word JEW keyed across our brand new car….and had two teen boys march Into our house when my parents weren’t home, blow out the candle and say “that’s what we think of your fucking religion.”

And yet, I didn’t drop out of high school and blame antisemitism. I went on to college and grad school, and a successful life. I had two married parents who valued higher education, and didn’t let antisemites stop them from achieving.

 

[CarsomyrPlusSix]

Black MAGAs are a clear and present danger

As the American conservative movement has morphed from racist dog whistles and white-grievance politics to full-blown fascism and white nationalism, Black MAGAs have enlisted as soldiers in the war against civil rights, voting rights, liberal democracy and racial justice. Unable to achieve their unpopular and toxic policies through the ballot box, MAGA intends to bring about their goals through white nationalist minority rule. And Black MAGAs are eager to oblige.

Lacking principles, these Black white nationalists say and do anything to please Trump, Trumpism and the white supremacist base. Never speaking ill of white folks, Black MAGAs will blame the Black community for anything and everything, never stand up for Black people, never help us and always throw us under the bus. They lack self-respect and scruples. However, they do collect a paycheck, which they will enjoy until such time as they are rendered useless and their services are no longer needed.

Black MAGAs are a clear and present danger

All skinfolk ain't kinfolk: Black MAGAs have joined the fight against civil rights, voting rights and racial justice.

thegrio.com

All skinfolk ain't kinfolk.

We as blacks are taught this as children. Basically it means just don't take sides with someone only because they are black. This is what makes the right wing claims of my racism laughable. And it is why we can oppose black MAGA sellouts. And it's funny that only a certain type of white individual hails these deplorables as independent thinkers.

“Black people must think a certain way on the basis of their ethnicity or skin color” is pure, unabashed fundamental racism, by definition.

 

[Coyote]

You long for the force to silence me. You have fantasies about me being beaten up, or silenced in a totalitarian indoctrination camp.

People of your persuasion have the force. People of my persuasion have the facts. Eventually our facts will prevail. The truth about intrinsic differences in the various races cannot be hidden for long.

This resembles the conflict between Copernicus and Galileo on one hand, and the Italian Inquisition on the other. Eventually Copernicus and Galileo prevailed. The Italian Inquisition crept away in embarrass silence.

There is an important difference. The heliocentric theory is counter intuitive. Everyone can see that the sun revolves around the earth every day. I have read that one of five Americans still thinks so.

The assertions of race realism are not counter intuitive. Anyone with extensive experience with the three major races knows that Orientals, whites, and Negroes differ significantly in average intelligence, and in the tendency to commit crimes and to have illegitimate children.

Gene alleles are being discovered that influence intelligence and criminal behavior. I look forward to more genetic research. I am sure you would like to suppress it.

You look forward to more genetic research so you can misappropriate it and use it to justify your long term goal of racial eugenics. Does that sound familiar? It should.

Let’s look at your claim of genes and criminal behavior. There is some truth in and an awful lot of stated limitations.

Human behavior and human intelligence is a complex interplay of genetics, epigenetics, and environment. A person born with the potential for normal or high intelligence may never achieve it if he Is born in the middle of a famine or if his critical childhood years are in an an abusive or emotionally stunted environment (example, children raised in Chinese orphanages).

I imagine the study on genes and criminality you are thinking of is this one from 2012:

Genes influence criminal behavior, research suggests

Your genes could be a strong predictor of whether you stray into a life of crime, according to a new research paper. The study focused on whether genes are likely to cause a person to become a life-course persistent offender, which is characterized by antisocial behavior during childhood that...

www.sciencedaily.com

The author notes:

The analysis doesn't identify the specific genes that underlie the different pathways, which Barnes said would be an interesting area for further research.

"If we're showing that genes have an overwhelming influence on who gets put onto the life-course persistent pathway, then that would suggest we need to know which genes are involved and at the same time, how they're interacting with the environment so we can tailor interventions," he said.

Barnes said there is no gene for criminal behavior. He said crime is a learned behavior.

"But there are likely to be hundreds, if not thousands, of genes that will incrementally increase your likelihood of being involved in a crime even if it only ratchets that probability by 1 percent," he said. "It still is a genetic effect. And it's still important."

Your Scientific Racism takes that, strips away any other factors, and claims, with out further study, that this explains racial disparities in crime statistics in the US. That isn’t science…that is Soviet Science, where instead of looking at the best available evidence and forming a hypothesis, and then testing it, you do the opposite. You make a conclusion and then search for evidence to support it, discounting or ignoring anything that doesn’t.

It has only been since the revelations of the Holocaust that it became fashionable to lie about racial differences, and dangerous to tell the truth. The Nazi effort to exterminate the race that is the most intelligent on the average led to the delusion that there are no races that are unintelligent on the average.

Jews are not a race, and even amongst Jewish people, your article on a genetic mutation that might lead to an increase in a certain type of intelligence is limited to one subgroup of Jews, the Ashkanazi.

Scientific Racism starts out with the premise that one race is inferior (and don’t pretend there is no value judgement on your part here) and then seeks to prove it in a very unscientific way.

For example, claims about “civilization” - a rather vague term that is both unscientific, has no consistent definition, and is largely based on cultural assumptions and personal opinion. There is no way to test it scientifically.

Claims about “illegitimacy” and ”monogamy”which appear to be a rather cleaned up version of the old racist canard that black men are oversexed and under-brained brutes and black woman are promiscuous sluts. Again, you start with the “conclusion” and cherry pick the “evidence” to support it. Again, that is not scientific. You use American stats on single mothers to make that claim for an entire race. That is pretty sweeping since that ignores the vast majority of Black people in the world. You also ignores the influences of culture, affects of war, political turmoil, environmental disaster etc on normal institutions like monogamy and marriage (which is a cultural institution).

In one response you use HIV statistics as a way to “prove” this, but HIV stats mostly reflect unprotected sex and the reasons behind that are many include cultural distrust of the means and motives behind it and complications (war, poverty, etc) that prevent an effective distribution of information and preventatives such as condom use.

 

[Coyote]

The problem is that leftists (again, sorry) won’t allow that there is SOME correlation between IQ level and life success and instead insist on blaming all failures in the inner-city black communities on racism.

Is this a round about way of buying into Hector’s ”theory” of racial intelligence? You frequently reference IQ.

You emphasize “some”, yet you follow with the failures in certain black communities, are you saying low IQ is a factor and is it broadly racial?

I am a leftist, but I have never said racism accounts for everything. Rather it is a combination of many factors that are likely more causative than IQ or just racism AND can be cultural or regional.

Race does does not explain the poverty, low education levels and lack of “life successes” in many White communities Native American communities on reservations, etc.

 

[Coyote]

…,,,m

The average IQ of a Ph.D. is 125. The average IQ of a college graduate is 115. The average IQ of a high school graduate is 105.

Clearly, IQ and intelligence are correlated.

IQ Scores - AssessmentPsychology.com

Information on IQ scores, assessment, testing, classification, and distribution.

www.assessmentpsychology.com

OR…education can be a factor in test results.

 

[Lisa558]

…,,,m


OR…education can be a factor in test results.

Don’t be ridiculous. You don’t get to an average IQ of 125 by going for your Ph.D., or getting to an average IQ of 130 by majoring in engineering. People that attain these levels are significantly more intelligent than average.

 

[Lisa558]

Is this a round about way of buying into Hector’s ”theory” of racial intelligence? You frequently reference IQ.

You emphasize “some”, yet you follow with the failures in certain black communities, are you saying low IQ is a factor and is it broadly racial?

I am a leftist, but I have never said racism accounts for everything. Rather it is a combination of many factors that are likely more causative than IQ or just racism AND can be cultural or regional.

Race does does not explain the poverty, low education levels and lack of “life successes” in many White communities Native American communities on reservations, etc.

It’s both: innate intelligence and outside influence. But to deny that there’s a correlation between low education and professional attainment and IQ level is pure denial.

Rocket scientists have high IQs, and it’s their IQ (along with motivation) that allowed them to pursue that career path.

 

[Seymour Flops]

These great black MAGAs and many others like them on Youtube, etc. are probably going to be the driving factor in Trump being reelected.



Youtube will be loathe to censor them, and the typical basement dwelling "fact checker" for Facebook will be more interested in undressing them with his eyes than listening to what they say.

The left is not even talking about them so they are flying under the woke white media radar.

 

[Hector12]

You still use the word "Oriental", which tells me you don't "admire" them all that much.

I first learned Oriental girls existed when I was six or seven. I was watching a television documentary about Japanese school children. I remember thinking, "Some white girls are pretty. Some are not. All Oriental girls are pretty."

Years later, when I told an Oriental woman I was dating, "I prefer Oriental women," she did not get angry at me for calling her an Oriental.

She smiled and said, "You think we are much more wonderful."

Professor J. Philippe Rushton probably explained why I prefer Oriental women: they have less testosterone. That is why they are more feminine.

 

[JoeB131]

Your opinions about my religion are dangerous. You’ve said demeaning things about Jews repeatedly.

Your religion is a choice. Maybe a choice foisted on you by your parents, but a choice nonetheless.

You can stop being Jewish any time you want, just like I stopped being Catholic in 1983.

You’re just another leftist hypocrite, freely spouting your antisemitic views while simultaneously condemning anyone who says anything you perceive as racist.

Your religion isn't a race. You can't claim to be a minority and a privilege at the same time. One or the other.

 

[JoeB131]

I first learned Oriental girls existed when I was six or seven. I was watching a television documentary about Japanese school children. I remember thinking, "Some white girls are pretty. Some are not. All Oriental girls are pretty."

Years later, when I told an Oriental woman I was dating, "I prefer Oriental women," she did not get angry at me for calling her an Oriental.

Was that before or after you paid her for the Happy Ending?

The fact is that tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of Jews arrived on these shores during the Great Immigration fleeing European persecution - penniless, uneducated, and not speaking a word of English.

Um, yeah, not seeing your point. They got here and they got treated the same way the Germans, Italians, Catholics, Polish, and Irish did. Which means the minute they got off the boat, they were put above the blacks. Not as good as the Anglos, but better than blacks and Native Americans. If you wonder why there is so much resentment, no one much appreciates someone who cuts in line.

A couple of decades later, their children gathered around the radio in their tenement while news blared of Hitler murdering Bube, Zayde, and their aunts and uncles and cousins - and yet, another decade or so after that, they were college grads or business owners living in their new house out in the suburbs.

Again, I think we are all a little tired of hearing you whine about Hitler. Hitler died 78 years ago.

If impoverished Jews could find a way to succeed despite the roadblocks set up for them (good luck getting into an Ivy if you were Jewish in the 40s or 50s), why can’t poor blacks - after two generations of Affirmative Action - move out of the ghetto?

Uh, because no one knows you are Jewish unless you tell them.

True story. Did a resume for one of my fellow co-workers who happened to be Jewish. (Just not obnoxious about it like you are). And when we got to the point of listing community organizations, she wondered if she should list her work with a Jewish Women's Charity, because that might put off employers who are anti-Jewish.

Now, she had a really Jewish sounding surname, and I asked her if she would want to work for someone who didn't like her religion, to which she agreed she probably wouldn't.

But the point that she even had that option to start with shows... you aren't being all that oppressed.

On the other hand, there's no way a black person can hide being a black person if his boss happens to be a racist.

I’ve used that as an example, only to have the leftists (sorry, but it IS leftists who hate the comparison involving Jews’ success despite persecution) to lambast me and attempt to silence me. I have even been reported for making such a comparison.

Because no one persecuted you in this country. So, yes, you kind of make the point, if you give a group a far shot, they can succeed. Wow. That's great. Jews got opportunities in America they never would have gotten in Europe. Awesome. Blacks should get those same opportunities.

My arguments on race have been condemned and to an extent suppress. They have never been refuted. As more is learned about genetics, and as black rates of crime and illegitimacy increase, my arguments about race are being confirmed.

They've been completely refuted, which is why very little work has been done expanding on Murray's half-ass work.

Burying The Bell Curve | Opinion | The Harvard Crimson

When Charles A. Murray '65 spoke at the Institute of Politics last week, he demonstrated why his brand of racism

www.thecrimson.com

One example of Murray's willful attempt to mislead readers will suffice. Much of his data about a racial hierarchy of intelligence is taken from the work of Richard Lynn, who is described as a "leading scholar of racial and ethnic differences." In fact, Lynn is a white supremacist who has advocated the extermination of 'inferior' people and claimed that only whites and Asians have made major contributions to civilization.

Not only are Lynn's political views sickening, but his science is also fraudulent. Based on a study of the I.Q.s of Black South African students, whose scores were negatively affected by their living under apartheid and their difficulty with English, Lynn declared that the mean I.Q. of all Africans was 70, "proving" that they were even less intelligent than American Blacks. Murray and the late Edgar Pierce Professor of Psychology Richard J. Herrnstein relied on this data without reservation, and this is just one of countless examples of their use of biased sources. Many of the "researchers" they cite as authorities on race and intelligence believe Blacks are inherently, genetically inferior to whites Seventeen of these men have written for or served as editors for Mankind Quarterly, a journal of pseudo-science that attempts to prove white supremacy.

 

[JoeB131]

More debunking of the Bell Curve, then I will try to get this thread back on topic, which is the problem with Black MAGA/Conservatives.

Charles Murray

Charles Murray, a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, has become one of the most influential social scientists in America, using racist pseudoscience and misleading statistics to argue that social inequality is caused by the genetic inferiority of the black and Latino communities, women...

www.splcenter.org

fact, the Pioneer Fund’s ties to eugenics and white supremacy are not nearly as historically remote as Murray would have his readers believe. The president of the Pioneer Fund at the time The Bell Curve was written was Harry Weyher, who was a personal friend of the Fund’s founder, Wickliffe Draper, and shared his supposedly archaic views on race; just two months after the initial publication of The Bell Curve, Weyher gave an interview in which he argued, among other things, that desegregation had “wreck[ed] the school system.” Another of the Pioneer Fund’s board members at the time Murray was writing, John Trevor Jr., was also an officer of Coalition of Patriotic Societies, which, during his membership, was indicted for sedition over “pro-Nazi activities” and called for the release of all Nazi war criminals. Despite Murray’s claims, the Pioneer Fund continues to support “research” into race differences conducted by outright white supremacists.

The Bell Curve not only relied on “tainted sources” like Lynn, but is itself making a fundamentally eugenic argument. The central, and most controversial chapter of the book, focuses on the threat of “dysgenesis,” a term that Murray and Herrnstein claimed to have borrowed from population biology, but which in actuality was coined and has been used exclusively by eugenicists to describe the problem that their policy proposals were intended to fix. Dysgenesis refers to the supposed genetic deterioration of a population, but while Murray and Herrnstein wrote as though it represents mainstream science, dysgenesis is not considered to be a real phenomenon by modern evolutionary biologists. It is widely accepted only among the “scholars of racial and ethnic differences” that appear so prominently in The Bell Curve’s bibliography.

 

[JoeB131]

Okay, having hopefully dispensed with Grand Kleagle Hector and Karen558, let's get to the main problem with black conservatives/MAGA.

There is actually a valid argument to be made that 60 years of liberal policies haven't helped get blacks out of poverty. (But then again, you can't follow 340 years of awful behavior with 60 years of less awful behavior, and claim it's all better now.)

And there is an argument that certain conservative principles, such as less government interference and more entrepreneurship would help.

Awesome. So now all the black MAGA's have to do is fine tune that message and... oh, no, wait they aren't doing that. They would dare take this nonsense in front of black audiences.

Nope. What they are doing is going in front of audiences of white people and telling them what they want to hear. And hey, why not, if it pays good enough. Judas only got 30 pieces of silver.