Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
they may have broken the rules in the guidelines, but they may have followed the company policy as well...meaning, all emails involving all case loads, were printed and saved as documents with the appropriate documentation of the cases....and this could be what all employees follow...we don't know that these 7 were not following their office's guidelines.... It may be they that were following what they were told and taught, regarding making email copies involved in case loads....we need to find out, what the protocol was for all employees in these offices involved and see if these 7 were doing nothing out of the ordinary with their email filings....You don't know and don't have proof that they were destroyed for nefarious reasons...you have no proof these hard drives were intentionally fried.
That's the purpose of the criminal investigation, to prove it.
I know they didn't follow IRS procedures for safeguarding information.
I appears you are the one unfamiliar with the rules. When the IRS goes after someone for crimes, "the hard drive crashed" is never an acceptable answer.
The normal practice was to print out all emails that meet the definition of a federal record.
Internal Revenue Manual - 1.10.3 Standards for Using Email
These are baseless accusations....without knowing if someone intentionally blew their hard drive up and intentionally had their emails removed from the back up servers and a whole slew of other accusations that have been thrown out there in the wind, they would need a cast of 100 people to have been involved in this whole meritless conspiracy the right wing has once again, conjured up. It's to the point of being just plain ridiculous, and I blame no one but these republican congress critters themselves...for not caring about this case enough, to keep their partisan grand standing and showmanship, (and loose lips that sink ships), OUT OF THE INVESTIGATION... they could have been professional, and gotten to the bottom of this long ago....but THAT is not their goal...it's plain as day.
I get it, you trust these people even when they break the rules.
If the irs office's practice was not meeting the federal guidelines with their own protocol on how to handle emails, would this be Lerner's or the other 7's fault, when their entire office was doing it this way???
That would be the HEAD of the IRS's fault.
This is information that could easily be found out....why isn't anyone asking the questions instead of inserting innuendos and accusations of wrong doing and criminality by the 7 without even knowing this info?
everything is relative....
As I said before, it would be suspicious if the 7 were the only ones that only printed emails of documented IRS cases, IF NONE of the other employees did it this way and copied and printed ALL of their own emails....it starts to get smelly.
It would be suspicious if the 7 hard drives were the only hard drive crashes at the irs during the same period....but not so suspicious if there were an additional 25 other irs employees during the same period that had hard drive crashes....
We need a handle on what was going on around these people at the same time...in order to judge fairly, the situation....
no, it's not suspicious regarding the emails in this case missing, IF THE OTHERS in this irs division handled their emails in the exact same manner....that would be their office's protocol....not the individual's decision to break the federal IRS rule book...but the office protocol, office's common practice, breaking it.they may have broken the rules in the guidelines, but they may have followed the company policy as well...meaning, all emails involving all case loads, were printed and saved as documents with the appropriate documentation of the cases....and this could be what all employees follow...we don't know that these 7 were not following their office's guidelines.... It may be they that were following what they were told and taught, regarding making email copies involved in case loads....we need to find out, what the protocol was for all employees in these offices involved and see if these 7 were doing nothing out of the ordinary with their email filings....That's the purpose of the criminal investigation, to prove it.
I know they didn't follow IRS procedures for safeguarding information.
I appears you are the one unfamiliar with the rules. When the IRS goes after someone for crimes, "the hard drive crashed" is never an acceptable answer.
The normal practice was to print out all emails that meet the definition of a federal record.
Internal Revenue Manual - 1.10.3 Standards for Using Email
I get it, you trust these people even when they break the rules.
Read the link I posted. Then note that the IRS has said they cannot produce the emails in question due to hard drive crashes and backup tape rotation.
If the irs office's practice was not meeting the federal guidelines with their own protocol on how to handle emails, would this be Lerner's or the other 7's fault, when their entire office was doing it this way???
That would be the HEAD of the IRS's fault.
You're getting warmer....
This is information that could easily be found out....why isn't anyone asking the questions instead of inserting innuendos and accusations of wrong doing and criminality by the 7 without even knowing this info?
everything is relative....
As I said before, it would be suspicious if the 7 were the only ones that only printed emails of documented IRS cases, IF NONE of the other employees did it this way and copied and printed ALL of their own emails....it starts to get smelly.
It would be suspicious if the 7 hard drives were the only hard drive crashes at the irs during the same period....but not so suspicious if there were an additional 25 other irs employees during the same period that had hard drive crashes....
We need a handle on what was going on around these people at the same time...in order to judge fairly, the situation....
It's suspicious that the IRS employees in question did not follow the IRS procedures and anyone who calls that malfeasance is ridiculed by Obama administration supporters.
no, it's not suspicious regarding the emails in this case missing, IF THE OTHERS in this irs division handled their emails in the exact same manner....that would be their office's protocol....not the individual's decision to break the federal IRS rule book...but the office protocol, office's common practice, breaking it.they may have broken the rules in the guidelines, but they may have followed the company policy as well...meaning, all emails involving all case loads, were printed and saved as documents with the appropriate documentation of the cases....and this could be what all employees follow...we don't know that these 7 were not following their office's guidelines.... It may be they that were following what they were told and taught, regarding making email copies involved in case loads....we need to find out, what the protocol was for all employees in these offices involved and see if these 7 were doing nothing out of the ordinary with their email filings....
Read the link I posted. Then note that the IRS has said they cannot produce the emails in question due to hard drive crashes and backup tape rotation.
You're getting warmer....
This is information that could easily be found out....why isn't anyone asking the questions instead of inserting innuendos and accusations of wrong doing and criminality by the 7 without even knowing this info?
everything is relative....
As I said before, it would be suspicious if the 7 were the only ones that only printed emails of documented IRS cases, IF NONE of the other employees did it this way and copied and printed ALL of their own emails....it starts to get smelly.
It would be suspicious if the 7 hard drives were the only hard drive crashes at the irs during the same period....but not so suspicious if there were an additional 25 other irs employees during the same period that had hard drive crashes....
We need a handle on what was going on around these people at the same time...in order to judge fairly, the situation....
It's suspicious that the IRS employees in question did not follow the IRS procedures and anyone who calls that malfeasance is ridiculed by Obama administration supporters.
Not if these were the rules of their office...they are not laws, if I used the term law, I was wrong, they are RULES...no, it's not suspicious regarding the emails in this case missing, IF THE OTHERS in this irs division handled their emails in the exact same manner....that would be their office's protocol....not the individual's decision to break the federal IRS rule book...but the office protocol, office's common practice, breaking it.Read the link I posted. Then note that the IRS has said they cannot produce the emails in question due to hard drive crashes and backup tape rotation.
You're getting warmer....
It's suspicious that the IRS employees in question did not follow the IRS procedures and anyone who calls that malfeasance is ridiculed by Obama administration supporters.
Oh, so when a "group" violates Federal law then the "individuals" involved aren't culpable? Is that your contention?
just an fyi, I haven't had the chance to go and read the last *pm yet... and answer whatever you may have said...I was just giving my head a rest before delving in to debating it....!So basically it's OK to cheat on your taxes...you just need to do it with a bunch of OTHER PEOPLE so you can claim the "Care Group Exemption to the Law"? Gotcha...
no, it's not suspicious regarding the emails in this case missing, IF THE OTHERS in this irs division handled their emails in the exact same manner....that would be their office's protocol....not the individual's decision to break the federal IRS rule book...but the office protocol, office's common practice, breaking it.they may have broken the rules in the guidelines, but they may have followed the company policy as well...meaning, all emails involving all case loads, were printed and saved as documents with the appropriate documentation of the cases....and this could be what all employees follow...we don't know that these 7 were not following their office's guidelines.... It may be they that were following what they were told and taught, regarding making email copies involved in case loads....we need to find out, what the protocol was for all employees in these offices involved and see if these 7 were doing nothing out of the ordinary with their email filings....
Read the link I posted. Then note that the IRS has said they cannot produce the emails in question due to hard drive crashes and backup tape rotation.
You're getting warmer....
This is information that could easily be found out....why isn't anyone asking the questions instead of inserting innuendos and accusations of wrong doing and criminality by the 7 without even knowing this info?
everything is relative....
As I said before, it would be suspicious if the 7 were the only ones that only printed emails of documented IRS cases, IF NONE of the other employees did it this way and copied and printed ALL of their own emails....it starts to get smelly.
It would be suspicious if the 7 hard drives were the only hard drive crashes at the irs during the same period....but not so suspicious if there were an additional 25 other irs employees during the same period that had hard drive crashes....
We need a handle on what was going on around these people at the same time...in order to judge fairly, the situation....
It's suspicious that the IRS employees in question did not follow the IRS procedures and anyone who calls that malfeasance is ridiculed by Obama administration supporters.
Not if these were the rules of their office...they are not laws, if I used the term law, I was wrong, they are RULES...no, it's not suspicious regarding the emails in this case missing, IF THE OTHERS in this irs division handled their emails in the exact same manner....that would be their office's protocol....not the individual's decision to break the federal IRS rule book...but the office protocol, office's common practice, breaking it.
Oh, so when a "group" violates Federal law then the "individuals" involved aren't culpable? Is that your contention?
And no, the employees should not be held accountable for these rules and regs, being modified by their management for their particular use...
but if the hierarchy of the Division did set rules that did not meet the guidelines, then the Division management that put forth these office guidelines not meeting federal guidelines, should be held accountable.
If Lerner and these 7 were not a part of making these office guidelines, of course they should not be held accountable, nor should the other workers just following normal office practice and rules.
You obviously have not worked for a corporation or a big beauracracy...you follow the office guidelines that your management sets....of course your management is responsible for setting the office guidelines within the corporation's or bureaucracy's guidelines and the employees presume the office rules are correctly fitting in to the bureau's guidelines....it's not up to the employees to determine that their management guidelines do or do not technically fit the head corporation's guidelines....Not if these were the rules of their office...they are not laws, if I used the term law, I was wrong, they are RULES...Oh, so when a "group" violates Federal law then the "individuals" involved aren't culpable? Is that your contention?
And no, the employees should not be held accountable for these rules and regs, being modified by their management for their particular use...
but if the hierarchy of the Division did set rules that did not meet the guidelines, then the Division management that put forth these office guidelines not meeting federal guidelines, should be held accountable.
If Lerner and these 7 were not a part of making these office guidelines, of course they should not be held accountable, nor should the other workers just following normal office practice and rules.
So it's not their fault that they cannot follow IRS regulations? Interesting.
"But officer, I didn't set the speed limit and everyone else was going 80 mph too!"
You obviously have not worked for a corporation or a big beauracracy...you follow the office guidelines that your management sets....of course your management is responsible for setting the office guidelines within the corporation's or bureaucracy's guidelines and the employees presume the office rules are correctly fitting in to the bureau's guidelines....it's not up to the employees to determine that their management guidelines do or do not technically fit the head corporation's guidelines....Not if these were the rules of their office...they are not laws, if I used the term law, I was wrong, they are RULES...
And no, the employees should not be held accountable for these rules and regs, being modified by their management for their particular use...
but if the hierarchy of the Division did set rules that did not meet the guidelines, then the Division management that put forth these office guidelines not meeting federal guidelines, should be held accountable.
If Lerner and these 7 were not a part of making these office guidelines, of course they should not be held accountable, nor should the other workers just following normal office practice and rules.
So it's not their fault that they cannot follow IRS regulations? Interesting.
"But officer, I didn't set the speed limit and everyone else was going 80 mph too!"
If you want to hold these 7 responsible for their Director's guidelines for their office that were established, then you have to hold every single employee there responsible....you are punishing the people not responsible for the office's rules that were set before they were even hired. That's just common sense that they, the employees, would not be responsible for what rules, their management sets.
And if everyone in the office managed their emails in the same manner, then there is NOTHING suspicious about what these people have done with their emails.*
but we don't even know if this is what has happened....we just need to find out, and then move forward from there.
no, i'm not making excuses, i'm stating reality....You obviously have not worked for a corporation or a big beauracracy...you follow the office guidelines that your management sets....of course your management is responsible for setting the office guidelines within the corporation's or bureaucracy's guidelines and the employees presume the office rules are correctly fitting in to the bureau's guidelines....it's not up to the employees to determine that their management guidelines do or do not technically fit the head corporation's guidelines....So it's not their fault that they cannot follow IRS regulations? Interesting.
"But officer, I didn't set the speed limit and everyone else was going 80 mph too!"
If you want to hold these 7 responsible for their Director's guidelines for their office that were established, then you have to hold every single employee there responsible....you are punishing the people not responsible for the office's rules that were set before they were even hired. That's just common sense that they, the employees, would not be responsible for what rules, their management sets.
And if everyone in the office managed their emails in the same manner, then there is NOTHING suspicious about what these people have done with their emails.*
but we don't even know if this is what has happened....we just need to find out, and then move forward from there.
The rules are clear, these people violated them. You are making flimsy excuses for people that are under scrutiny for inappropriate actions.
You know what I find amusing, Care? You keep saying we need to find out what happened and then we can move forward when it's obvious that people in power at the IRS are quite determined that we DON'T find out what happened!
You excuse the hard drive crashes of the Head of the Exempt Organizations Division...the Chief of Staff for the IRS Commissioner...the IRS National Media Relations Chief...(all of which took place in Washington) and then four of the agents working in Exempt Organizations Division in Cincinnati as some sort of bizarre coincidence.
You state that you believe that the failure to back up emails to paper might be an IRS-wide company policy but provide ZERO proof that this is so. You also seem to think that fulfilling this requirement is up to the different governmental agencies to decide whether or not they feel like complying. How you've arrived at that conclusion I don't have the faintest idea either...
You don't seem to think it's strange that the hard drives of 3 prominent IRS officials could crash and that NONE of them would ask that the data they lost be retrieved from tape backups. I guess you're of the belief that none of those 3 prominent IRS officials had anything of value on their hard drives and simply threw up their hands and said: "Oh well, I guess shit happens! I've lost all those important files but what's a busy IRS executive to do!"
And you don't find it bizarre that nobody at the IRS would tell Congress that they were missing emails and the email paper backups and that nobody had bothered to retrieve the lost data from the back up system UNTIL AFTER THOSE TAPE BACK UP HAD BEEN SCRUBBED? You actually BUY that happening simply by accident!
You obviously have not worked for a corporation or a big beauracracy...you follow the office guidelines that your management sets....of course your management is responsible for setting the office guidelines within the corporation's or bureaucracy's guidelines and the employees presume the office rules are correctly fitting in to the bureau's guidelines....it's not up to the employees to determine that their management guidelines do or do not technically fit the head corporation's guidelines....So it's not their fault that they cannot follow IRS regulations? Interesting.
"But officer, I didn't set the speed limit and everyone else was going 80 mph too!"
If you want to hold these 7 responsible for their Director's guidelines for their office that were established, then you have to hold every single employee there responsible....you are punishing the people not responsible for the office's rules that were set before they were even hired. That's just common sense that they, the employees, would not be responsible for what rules, their management sets.
And if everyone in the office managed their emails in the same manner, then there is NOTHING suspicious about what these people have done with their emails.*
but we don't even know if this is what has happened....we just need to find out, and then move forward from there.
The rules are clear, these people violated them. You are making flimsy excuses for people that are under scrutiny for inappropriate actions.
You know what I find amusing, Care? You keep saying we need to find out what happened and then we can move forward when it's obvious that people in power at the IRS are quite determined that we DON'T find out what happened!
You excuse the hard drive crashes of the Head of the Exempt Organizations Division...the Chief of Staff for the IRS Commissioner...the IRS National Media Relations Chief...(all of which took place in Washington) and then four of the agents working in Exempt Organizations Division in Cincinnati as some sort of bizarre coincidence.
You state that you believe that the failure to back up emails to paper might be an IRS-wide company policy but provide ZERO proof that this is so.
No different than your speculating about guilt with no proof, is it?
You also seem to think that fulfilling this requirement is up to the different governmental agencies to decide whether or not they feel like complying. How you've arrived at that conclusion I don't have the faintest idea either...
I think we need to know this before we can ascertain whether the Lerner 7 did anything out of the ordinary.
You don't seem to think it's strange that the hard drives of 3 prominent IRS officials could crash and that NONE of them would ask that the data they lost be retrieved from tape backups. I guess you're of the belief that none of those 3 prominent IRS officials had anything of value on their hard drives and simply threw up their hands and said: "Oh well, I guess shit happens! I've lost all those important files but what's a busy IRS executive to do!"
Honestly, I don't see how the email data could even be "lost" when a hard drive crashes, I thought emails were part of a system and stored on other servers and this was how all email worked....if my hard drive on my laptop ever crashed, I could still go to my husband's computer, go to yahoo, and get to my mail and nothing would be lost?
So maybe this was the case, with all the people at the irs that lost their computers to hard drive crashes...maybe they did not lose their emails and continued on with their daily work with their new computers? I DON'T KNOW and as said, I truly don't comprehend what the news and congress critters are saying the IRS is claiming...?
I just want to dot the i's and cross the t's and try to understand what is going on here and the timeline of it all, before I throw out my conviction of guilt.
And you don't find it bizarre that nobody at the IRS would tell Congress that they were missing emails and the email paper backups and that nobody had bothered to retrieve the lost data from the back up system UNTIL AFTER THOSE TAPE BACK UP HAD BEEN SCRUBBED? You actually BUY that happening simply by accident!
You know what I find amusing, Care? You keep saying we need to find out what happened and then we can move forward when it's obvious that people in power at the IRS are quite determined that we DON'T find out what happened!
You excuse the hard drive crashes of the Head of the Exempt Organizations Division...the Chief of Staff for the IRS Commissioner...the IRS National Media Relations Chief...(all of which took place in Washington) and then four of the agents working in Exempt Organizations Division in Cincinnati as some sort of bizarre coincidence.
Wait.....you're insinuating some conspiracy because Congress found hard drive crashes 'only' among those they're investing?u know what I find amusing, Care? You keep saying we need to find out what happened and then we can move forward when it's obvious that people in power at the IRS are quite determined that we DON'T find out what happened!
You excuse the hard drive crashes of the Head of the Exempt Organizations Division...the Chief of Staff for the IRS Commissioner...the IRS National Media Relations Chief...(all of which took place in Washington) and then four of the agents working in Exempt Organizations Division in Cincinnati as some sort of bizarre coincidence.
