Challenge to Democrats re: ACA

[dblack]

Much has been made about how the individual mandate, and most of the ideas that formed ACA, were - if not Republican ideas outright - at least designed to appeal to the perceived pro-business bias of conservatives. I think there's some truth to the point of view that ACA is largely a "Republican" idea - certainly if you look at what Romney did in MA. And it's certainly plausible that, with the right set of circumstances, Republicans might have produced something very much like ACA.

My challenge to Democrats who are currently supporters of ACA is to consider and answer the following questions: If the tables were turned, if McCain had won in 2008, if Republicans had controlled congress, and something fundamentally the same as ACA had been passed without any Democrats voting for it, how would it change your views on the law? Would you still support the individual mandate? Would you have fought against it when the legislation was being considered? Would you advocate the repeal of, at least, the individual mandate? Or would you still see the law as important reform, albeit imperfect, and support it the same way you do now?

I supported it in the 90s, why wouldn't I support it in 2009?

I understand. I'm not really addressing authoritarian rightwingers such as yourself, as much as egalitarian liberals who are, nominally, opposed to corporate/government collusion.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Much has been made about how the individual mandate, and most of the ideas that formed ACA, were - if not Republican ideas outright - at least designed to appeal to the perceived pro-business bias of conservatives. I think there's some truth to the point of view that ACA is largely a "Republican" idea - certainly if you look at what Romney did in MA. And it's certainly plausible that, with the right set of circumstances, Republicans might have produced something very much like ACA.

My challenge to Democrats who are currently supporters of ACA is to consider and answer the following questions: If the tables were turned, if McCain had won in 2008, if Republicans had controlled congress, and something fundamentally the same as ACA had been passed without any Democrats voting for it, how would it change your views on the law? Would you still support the individual mandate? Would you have fought against it when the legislation was being considered? Would you advocate the repeal of, at least, the individual mandate? Or would you still see the law as important reform, albeit imperfect, and support it the same way you do now?

I supported it in the 90s, why wouldn't I support it in 2009?

I understand. I'm not really addressing authoritarian rightwingers such as yourself, as much as egalitarian liberals who are, nominally, opposed to corporate/government collusion.

Say what? RW is a what?

 

[dblack]

I'm still hoping that some Democrats will realized how much has been sacrificed in the name of partisanship.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Much has been made about how the individual mandate, and most of the ideas that formed ACA, were - if not Republican ideas outright - at least designed to appeal to the perceived pro-business bias of conservatives. I think there's some truth to the point of view that ACA is largely a "Republican" idea - certainly if you look at what Romney did in MA. And it's certainly plausible that, with the right set of circumstances, Republicans might have produced something very much like ACA.

My challenge to Democrats who are currently supporters of ACA is to consider and answer the following questions: If the tables were turned, if McCain had won in 2008, if Republicans had controlled congress, and something fundamentally the same as ACA had been passed without any Democrats voting for it, how would it change your views on the law? Would you still support the individual mandate? Would you have fought against it when the legislation was being considered? Would you advocate the repeal of, at least, the individual mandate? Or would you still see the law as important reform, albeit imperfect, and support it the same way you do now?

I would have supported reform of our system of care no matter who proposed or passed such a bill - emphasis on reform.

Agreed.

Particularly since that would be the best to be expected from a republican administration.

Of course the best course of action concerning reform would be a single payer system, where Medicare is expanded to cover all Americans, Medicaid is done away with, and health insurance companies could go back to selling health insurance, not health maintenance, which they do a very poor job of.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I think you knew the answer before you typed the first character.
Having said that...I am pretty confident that conservatives would not be supporting it like Democrats are.
Just goes to show you....

I wouldn't say that. Not all of them are partisans. I suspect there are many who would stick to their views regardless. Likewise, there are many liberals who don't currently support ACA.

True.

In fact almost every liberal doesn’t approve of the ACA.

But liberals are pragmatists; again, they understand this is the best that can be expected given the current political climate.

They correctly see it as the first and important step toward real and actual healthcare reform.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I'm still hoping that some Democrats will realized how much has been sacrificed in the name of partisanship.

Nothing has been ‘sacrificed,’ that’s partisan hyperbole on your part.

If you want to repeal the ACA and replace it with a single payer system, 100 percent of liberals would agree, regardless how politically damaging and embarrassing it might be to the president and his legacy.

 

[Vigilante]

 

[dblack]

I think you knew the answer before you typed the first character.
Having said that...I am pretty confident that conservatives would not be supporting it like Democrats are.
Just goes to show you....

I wouldn't say that. Not all of them are partisans. I suspect there are many who would stick to their views regardless. Likewise, there are many liberals who don't currently support ACA.

True.

In fact almost every liberal doesn’t approve of the ACA.

But liberals are pragmatists; again, they understand this is the best that can be expected given the current political climate.

Then they approve of it. You can't have it both ways.

They correctly see it as the first and important step toward real and actual healthcare reform.

They've been duped.

 

[dblack]

Much has been made about how the individual mandate, and most of the ideas that formed ACA, were - if not Republican ideas outright - at least designed to appeal to the perceived pro-business bias of conservatives. I think there's some truth to the point of view that ACA is largely a "Republican" idea - certainly if you look at what Romney did in MA. And it's certainly plausible that, with the right set of circumstances, Republicans might have produced something very much like ACA.

My challenge to Democrats who are currently supporters of ACA is to consider and answer the following questions: If the tables were turned, if McCain had won in 2008, if Republicans had controlled congress, and something fundamentally the same as ACA had been passed without any Democrats voting for it, how would it change your views on the law? Would you still support the individual mandate? Would you have fought against it when the legislation was being considered? Would you advocate the repeal of, at least, the individual mandate? Or would you still see the law as important reform, albeit imperfect, and support it the same way you do now?

I would have supported reform of our system of care no matter who proposed or passed such a bill - emphasis on reform.

Agreed.

Particularly since that would be the best to be expected from a republican administration.

Some would have. Just as some true statists among the Republicans (e.g. Jakey, etc) support it now. But not all Democrats are corporatists and some recognize ACA as a sellout. And the politics would have supported them. Opportunistic Democrats in Congress would seized on the public resentment in exactly the same way Republicans are now.

 

[billyerock1991]

Much has been made about how the individual mandate, and most of the ideas that formed ACA, were - if not Republican ideas outright - at least designed to appeal to the perceived pro-business bias of conservatives. I think there's some truth to the point of view that ACA is largely a "Republican" idea - certainly if you look at what Romney did in MA. And it's certainly plausible that, with the right set of circumstances, Republicans might have produced something very much like ACA.

My challenge to Democrats who are currently supporters of ACA is to consider and answer the following questions: If the tables were turned, if McCain had won in 2008, if Republicans had controlled congress, and something fundamentally the same as ACA had been passed without any Democrats voting for it, how would it change your views on the law? Would you still support the individual mandate? Would you have fought against it when the legislation was being considered? Would you advocate the repeal of, at least, the individual mandate? Or would you still see the law as important reform, albeit imperfect, and support it the same way you do now?

if it is the same, no changes ... I as a far left lefty would call my senator and congress men and tell the pull their head out of their ass an stop dicking around vote yes on it ... that's only if it is the same thing we have now ... any attempt to send medicare or medicaid or social security to the private sector through it, it would get an big fat no vote against it ... if it's what we dems/liberals passed here that I would say vote yes on it ... this isn't a republican thing or a dem thing ...its health care thing for all ... that doesn't say well, you are dumped because you cost us too much or we are going to charge you so much that you can't afford us thing ... that's what you republicans don't seem to understand ... you seem to think its lets hate anything republican its not ...,I realize you think that way hate anything dem, by your post here alone says that ...

 

[billyerock1991]

I think you knew the answer before you typed the first character.
Having said that...I am pretty confident that conservatives would not be supporting it like Democrats are.
Just goes to show you....

I wouldn't say that. Not all of them are partisans. I suspect there are many who would stick to their views regardless. Likewise, there are many liberals who don't currently support ACA.

I don't know of any liberal that doesn't support the ACA ... I do know they would have wanted single payer or the public option instead ... but to say they are against it is a typical misunderstand of what the liberals have said ... they all support the ACA in its ideals

 

[dblack]

I think you knew the answer before you typed the first character.
Having said that...I am pretty confident that conservatives would not be supporting it like Democrats are.
Just goes to show you....

I wouldn't say that. Not all of them are partisans. I suspect there are many who would stick to their views regardless. Likewise, there are many liberals who don't currently support ACA.

I don't know of any liberal that doesn't support the ACA ... I do know they would have wanted single payer or the public option instead ... but to say they are against it is a typical misunderstand of what the liberals have said ... they all support the ACA in its ideals

Every last one of them, huh? How are you determining if they are actually 'liberal'. I suppose by asking them whether they support ACA?

 

[billyerock1991]

Much has been made about how the individual mandate, and most of the ideas that formed ACA, were - if not Republican ideas outright - at least designed to appeal to the perceived pro-business bias of conservatives. I think there's some truth to the point of view that ACA is largely a "Republican" idea - certainly if you look at what Romney did in MA. And it's certainly plausible that, with the right set of circumstances, Republicans might have produced something very much like ACA.

My challenge to Democrats who are currently supporters of ACA is to consider and answer the following questions: If the tables were turned, if McCain had won in 2008, if Republicans had controlled congress, and something fundamentally the same as ACA had been passed without any Democrats voting for it, how would it change your views on the law? Would you still support the individual mandate? Would you have fought against it when the legislation was being considered? Would you advocate the repeal of, at least, the individual mandate? Or would you still see the law as important reform, albeit imperfect, and support it the same way you do now?

My view on the law is it has always been not enough but a step in the right direction.

Are you saying that your view would be the same under the Republican scenario? If they had passed it, would you have felt like the individual mandate, with no public option, was an acceptable compromise? Or would you have pressed your reps to fight it? Would you still be pressing them to fight it?

its quit apparent what Howey said he would be for it but would press for more thats means he would have press for more meaning with individual mandate, and would accept it if they couldn't get the public option, that would be a acceptable compromise? what part are you trying to trick somebody up on ... the individual mandate ??? we all know how you hate that notion ... stop trying to put words in peoples mouth... if tyhe republicans came up with a bill that said
1) you can't be dumped from your policy for any reason
2) that everybody must be on a health care plan
3) that they can't raise the price on you if ,you get sick
4) we would have liked a public option. but that didn't happen because of the opposing party but we would have compromised for these other things would be fine with all of us liberals and dems because what we use to have was the worst health care insurance on the planet ...

we realize what you are doing you are trying to make us say if the republicans passed the ACA like it is to day we would want the dems to repeal it ... that would get an big fat no from us liberals/dems ...we would not want any dem/liberal to try and repeal the ACA as it is today period do you get it ??? it has nothing to do with party it has everthing to do with health care ...

 

[dblack]

...I realize you think that way hate anything dem, by your post here alone says that ...

Read it again then. You're totally wrong. In fact, the point of my thread is to call out that very kind of hypocrisy.

 

[billyerock1991]

Much has been made about how the individual mandate, and most of the ideas that formed ACA, were - if not Republican ideas outright - at least designed to appeal to the perceived pro-business bias of conservatives. I think there's some truth to the point of view that ACA is largely a "Republican" idea - certainly if you look at what Romney did in MA. And it's certainly plausible that, with the right set of circumstances, Republicans might have produced something very much like ACA.

My challenge to Democrats who are currently supporters of ACA is to consider and answer the following questions: If the tables were turned, if McCain had won in 2008, if Republicans had controlled congress, and something fundamentally the same as ACA had been passed without any Democrats voting for it, how would it change your views on the law? Would you still support the individual mandate? Would you have fought against it when the legislation was being considered? Would you advocate the repeal of, at least, the individual mandate? Or would you still see the law as important reform, albeit imperfect, and support it the same way you do now?

I am a liberal...but not a registered Democrat. But I will answer anyway.

I prefer single payer. But the ACA is a step in the right direction.

You actually answered your own question. Liberals supported Romneycare in MA.

Liberals are capable of looking beyond party to see the benefits of something.

well said all he is trying to do is get us to say we would be against anthing republican ... like you say "Liberals are capable of looking beyond party to see the benefits of something." republicans don't have that ability as I see it ...

 

[dblack]

Much has been made about how the individual mandate, and most of the ideas that formed ACA, were - if not Republican ideas outright - at least designed to appeal to the perceived pro-business bias of conservatives. I think there's some truth to the point of view that ACA is largely a "Republican" idea - certainly if you look at what Romney did in MA. And it's certainly plausible that, with the right set of circumstances, Republicans might have produced something very much like ACA.

My challenge to Democrats who are currently supporters of ACA is to consider and answer the following questions: If the tables were turned, if McCain had won in 2008, if Republicans had controlled congress, and something fundamentally the same as ACA had been passed without any Democrats voting for it, how would it change your views on the law? Would you still support the individual mandate? Would you have fought against it when the legislation was being considered? Would you advocate the repeal of, at least, the individual mandate? Or would you still see the law as important reform, albeit imperfect, and support it the same way you do now?

I am a liberal...but not a registered Democrat. But I will answer anyway.

I prefer single payer. But the ACA is a step in the right direction.

You actually answered your own question. Liberals supported Romneycare in MA.

Liberals are capable of looking beyond party to see the benefits of something.

well said all he is trying to do is get us to say we would be against anthing republican ... like you say "Liberals are capable of looking beyond party to see the benefits of something." republicans don't have that ability as I see it ...

No, i'm hoping you'll do the opposite. I'm hoping you'll take a moment to consider how you'd be reacting to the mandate to buy insurance from the cronies of Congress if it were Republican legislation. I think lots of you saw how fucked up the idea of the mandate was, at least before it went down. Hell, even Obama saw that: [ame="http://youtu.be/FknJLMc84bo"]Obama saw that[/ame]


But now you have your partisan blinders on and willingly accept corporate servitude.

 

[billyerock1991]

Much has been made about how the individual mandate, and most of the ideas that formed ACA, were - if not Republican ideas outright - at least designed to appeal to the perceived pro-business bias of conservatives. I think there's some truth to the point of view that ACA is largely a "Republican" idea - certainly if you look at what Romney did in MA. And it's certainly plausible that, with the right set of circumstances, Republicans might have produced something very much like ACA.

My challenge to Democrats who are currently supporters of ACA is to consider and answer the following questions: If the tables were turned, if McCain had won in 2008, if Republicans had controlled congress, and something fundamentally the same as ACA had been passed without any Democrats voting for it, how would it change your views on the law? Would you still support the individual mandate? Would you have fought against it when the legislation was being considered? Would you advocate the repeal of, at least, the individual mandate? Or would you still see the law as important reform, albeit imperfect, and support it the same way you do now?

I supported it in the 90s, why wouldn't I support it in 2009?

I understand. I'm not really addressing authoritarian rightwingers such as yourself, as much as egalitarian liberals who are, nominally, opposed to corporate/government collusion.

here is what republicans are all about ... they think just because we liberals are against a corporations that we won't accept anything that involves a corporation ... thats the furthers from the truth ... we don't like corporation polluting the air, land, or water for their financial gain ... that doesn't mean we are against corporations, it means we don't think they will be responsible members of the world unless you put regulations on them ... other wise they will do as the please reguardless of the living things of this world

 

[billyerock1991]

I wouldn't say that. Not all of them are partisans. I suspect there are many who would stick to their views regardless. Likewise, there are many liberals who don't currently support ACA.

I don't know of any liberal that doesn't support the ACA ... I do know they would have wanted single payer or the public option instead ... but to say they are against it is a typical misunderstand of what the liberals have said ... they all support the ACA in its ideals

Every last one of them, huh? How are you determining if they are actually 'liberal'. I suppose by asking them whether they support ACA?

do you have a comprehension problem??? i clearly wrote I don't know of any liberal that doesn't support the ACA ... trust me when I say I hang around liberals a lot and none of them have ever said to me they are against the aca... that a liberal, not a liberal dem, not a liberal libertarian which I've personally never met one in my life well, that I know of, I am speaking about the liberals I know ... and thy all have said ti me they are for the ACA no mater what party is for it ... is that plain enough???

P.S.
stop trying to put word in our mouths

 

[dblack]

I supported it in the 90s, why wouldn't I support it in 2009?

I understand. I'm not really addressing authoritarian rightwingers such as yourself, as much as egalitarian liberals who are, nominally, opposed to corporate/government collusion.

here is what republicans are all about ... they think just because we liberals are against a corporations that we won't accept anything that involves a corporation ... thats the furthers from the truth ... we don't like corporation polluting the air, land, or water for their financial gain ... that doesn't mean we are against corporations, it means we don't think they will be responsible members of the world unless you put regulations on them ... other wise they will do as the please reguardless of the living things of this world

I was referring to egalitarian liberals who oppose corporations colluding with government to secure profits. I realize that not all liberals, certainly not all Democrats, are against that sort of thing. Some of you actively encourage it.

 

[billyerock1991]

...I realize you think that way hate anything dem, by your post here alone says that ...

Read it again then. You're totally wrong. In fact, the point of my thread is to call out that very kind of hypocrisy.

your point here is try and point out a hypocrisy in us liberals here .. if the dem party was against the ACA bill, you won't get that from us dem/liberals as LL said its not about party, its about health care ... what it represents ... that's why you're not getting any of us against it even if a republican passed it ... we know a good Idea when we see it... we are liberals we think outside the box ... unlike you republicans do...