Christians Aren't Required By Law Now To Go To Hell Forever In Arizona!

[BillyZane]

Whether those "rights" violate your 1st Amendment rights is not up to you to decide.

You can have your opinion, and you can argue for it.

But it will SCOTUS that decides how it is going to work in our society.

Christian dominionism no longer has a legitimate place in American politics and society.

Your apparent hatred or Christianity has blinded you to to the obvious .

This isn't about Christianity, it's about the government taking powers that they do not have. If SCOTUS says that the government is empowered to tell you who you must like and who you must do business with, they are wrong.

Did you miss the entire Civil Rights movement? It was in all the papers

I know all about the civil rights movement and believe the government went too far. Of course they have the right to order the government not to discriminate, they have no such power over individuals. If they did you would have posted the relevant section of the COTUS by now

 

[JakeStarkey]

Your apparent hatred or Christianity has blinded you to to the obvious .

This isn't about Christianity, it's about the government taking powers that they do not have. If SCOTUS says that the government is empowered to tell you who you must like and who you must do business with, they are wrong.

Did you miss the entire Civil Rights movement? It was in all the papers

I know all about the civil rights movement and believe the government went too far. Of course they have the right to order the government not to discriminate, they have no such power over individuals. If they did you would have posted the relevant section of the COTUS by now

All good Christians believe in separation of church and state.

No, the government did not go too far.

Billy, the government can regulate people in business if they are engaged in public accommodation.

Doesn't matter if you don't agree.

 

[Silhouette]

There is no church of LGBT.

The Bible has no standing in court.

All good Christians believe fully in separation of church and state.

All good Christians believe fully in civil rights.

Behaviors don't quailfy for civil rights, unless they are a recognized religion. Are you saying that LGBT is a recognized religion? Where's the federal recognition documentation? If not, they surely are not a race, since they span all races, and they are not a gender, for they span both genders. So what are they if not a set of random deviant sexual behaviors?

And BTW, good christians do object to them. That's why we are having this debate.

Since your thesis is in error, the rest of your argument fails.

No good Christian wants a fusion of state and church, and no good Christian wants anything less than full civil rights.

I'll have to notify the Mayo Clinic, the CDC and the 300 independent, peer-reviewed scientists who are all in agreement that sexual compulsions/orientations are learned then. They'll be so sad to learn that all that expensive research was nullified by the political cabal at the APA and Jake's subjective factual revisionism.

I guess along with throwing out the ruling scientific principle at the APA [google "Leona Tyler principle"] the cabal at the APA has deemed that any good science that conflicts with its political findings is "junk science", "unecessary to come to a conclusion with"..

Is that sounding about right to you Jake?

Mayo Clinic 2007

One of the most obvious examples of an environmental
factor that increases the chances of an individual becoming
an offender is if he or she were sexually abused as a child.
This relationship is known as the “victim-to-abuser cycle”
or “abused-abusers phenomena.”
5,23,24,46...

...
why the “abused abusers phenomena” occurs: identification with the aggressor,
in which the abused child is trying to gain a new
identity by becoming the abuser; an imprinted sexual
arousal pattern established by early abuse; early abuse
leading to hypersexual behavior; or a form of social learning took place http://www.drrichardhall.com/Articles/pedophiles.pdf

CDC
ATLANTA [2005 Clinical Psychiatry News] -- Substance abuse is pervasive among gay men and is so intricately intertwined with epidemics of depression, partner abuse, and childhood sexual abuse that adequately addressing one issue requires attention to the others as well, said Ronald Stall, Ph.D., chief of prevention research for the division of HIV/AIDS prevention at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta...

300+ peer reviewed studies included in the link below's bibliography...and supporting its conclusions:

http://www.pphp.concordia.ca/fac/pfaus/Pfaus-Kippin-Centeno(2001).pdf

Conditioning and Sexual Behavior: A Review

James G. Pfaus,1 Tod E. Kippin, and Soraya Centeno
Center for Studies in Behavioral Neurobiology, Department of Psychology, Concordia
University, 1455 deMaisonneuve Bldg. W., Montre´al, Que´bec, H3G 1M8 Canada

 

[JakeStarkey]

If it were good science, yes, but since it is not, no. You have misconstrued faulty evidence to support your failed thesis.

It is what it is, Sil.

And none of it has standing before SCOTUS.

 

[Silhouette]

If it were good science, yes, but since it is not, no. You have misconstrued faulty evidence to support your failed thesis.

It is what it is, Sil.

And none of it has standing before SCOTUS.

How is it you have arrived at the conclusion that the Mayo Clinic's, the CDC and the 300+ peer reviewed bibliography of "Conditioning and Sexual Behavior: A Review" supporting its conclusions that sexual preference is not only learned but is taught socially are "not good science"?

Links, quotes and credentials for those please. [Be advised that a past president of the APA and chief of mental health at Kaiser has reported that the APA since the 1980s has abandoned science in favor of a political agenda with respect to all studies of homosexuality and transgenderism].

Now, your links? Credentials?

 

[Katzndogz]

Sil, you are absolutely correct. What you are missing is t hat no one cares if you are correct. The y are degenerate and want t.o be even more degenerate. The problem as liberals see it is that you aren't degenerate. Explain facts and they counter with "of course, We're perverts". No matter what say it can never overcome the basic understanding that the goal is a fully degenerate culture

 

[JoeB131]

There is no church of LGBT.

The Bible has no standing in court.

All good Christians believe fully in separation of church and state.

All good Christians believe fully in civil rights.

Behaviors don't quailfy for civil rights, unless they are a recognized religion. Are you saying that LGBT is a recognized religion? Where's the federal recognition documentation? If not, they surely are not a race, since they span all races, and they are not a gender, for they span both genders. So what are they if not a set of random deviant sexual behaviors?

And BTW, good christians do object to them. That's why we are having this debate.

No, bigots claiming to be Christians object to them.

Sorry you can't see the diffrence.

But here's the rub. Jan Brewer is going to veto the shit out of this silly law.

The Business Republicans looked at the impending boycott of the state, and Phoenix losing the Super Bowl, and decided, they didn't care what some moldy 2000 year old book says, there's money to be made and lost.

Not that this lesson will be heard by the Funditards, but when it comes to a choice of what the Business Republicans want and what the Christian Republicans want, the Business Republicans win Every time.

""No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." Luke 16:13-

 

[JakeStarkey]

There is no church of LGBT.

The Bible has no standing in court.

All good Christians believe fully in separation of church and state.

All good Christians believe fully in civil rights.

Behaviors don't quailfy for civil rights, unless they are a recognized religion. Are you saying that LGBT is a recognized religion? Where's the federal recognition documentation? If not, they surely are not a race, since they span all races, and they are not a gender, for they span both genders. So what are they if not a set of random deviant sexual behaviors?

And BTW, good christians do object to them. That's why we are having this debate.

No, bigots claiming to be Christians object to them.

Sorry you can't see the diffrence.

But here's the rub. Jan Brewer is going to veto the shit out of this silly law.

The Business Republicans looked at the impending boycott of the state, and Phoenix losing the Super Bowl, and decided, they didn't care what some moldy 2000 year old book says, there's money to be made and lost.

Not that this lesson will be heard by the Funditards, but when it comes to a choice of what the Business Republicans want and what the Christian Republicans want, the Business Republicans win Every time.

""No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." Luke 16:13-

Silhouette would like the US to return to the day of the Pilgrims, a theocratic state merging church and government.

Too bad, so sad, that is never going to happen.

Her false interpretation of scientific findings merely underscore that she operates from emotion not intellect.

 

[Silhouette]

Silhouette would like the US to return to the day of the Pilgrims, a theocratic state merging church and government.

Too bad, so sad, that is never going to happen.

Her false interpretation of scientific findings merely underscore that she operates from emotion not intellect.

Actually, the church of LGBT trying to force christians to disobey the stark and harrowing warnings of Jude 1 and Romans 1 as to enabling homosexuality is their ilk trying to force a merging of church and government.

And they've very nearly got it done. This decision by Arizona is pivotal. The Governor stands poised on the edge of committing one of the most damnable sins possible to commit. Not murder, not rape, for those are individual crimes that everyone knows are wrong. Institutionalizing a sin as "good" and thereby changing the matrix of the Big Plan never gives anyone a chance to consider it wrong. It completely and utterly removes its wrongness.

From there, next thing you know they'll be institutionalizing their religion to kids in schools...oh...wait a minute... They already have in California. Because California's elite didn't take a firm stand against the church of LGBT, the kids there now each May have to celebrate the sexual-political achievements of the church's messiah Harvey Milk. See my signature for details...

See how far a religious movement can infiltrate government when you let it go unnoticed as a cult movement? Behaviors vs race. This debate is not over.

Refresher course on all that 'questionable science'. READ THE ARTICLES FOR YOURSELVES AND INTERPRET THEM HOW YOU WILL.

ATLANTA [2005 Clinical Psychiatry News] -- Substance abuse is pervasive among gay men and is so intricately intertwined with epidemics of depression, partner abuse, and childhood sexual abuse that adequately addressing one issue requires attention to the others as well, said Ronald Stall, Ph.D., chief of prevention research for the division of HIV/AIDS prevention at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta...

Mayo Clinic 2007
One of the most obvious examples of an environmental
factor that increases the chances of an individual becoming
an offender is if he or she were sexually abused as a child.
This relationship is known as the “victim-to-abuser cycle”
or “abused-abusers phenomena.”
5,23,24,46...

...
why the “abused abusers phenomena” occurs: identification with the aggressor,
in which the abused child is trying to gain a new
identity by becoming the abuser; an imprinted sexual
arousal pattern established by early abuse; early abuse
leading to hypersexual behavior; or a form of social learning took place
http://www.drrichardhall.com/Articles/pedophiles.pdf

300+ cited review of peer-reviewed studies supporting the conclusions:

Conditioning and Sexual Behavior: A Review
James G. Pfaus,1 Tod E. Kippin, and Soraya Centeno
Center for Studies in Behavioral Neurobiology, Department of Psychology, Concordia
University, 1455 deMaisonneuve Bldg. W., Montre´al, Que´bec, H3G 1M8 Canada http://www.pphp.concordia.ca/fac/pfaus/Pfaus-Kippin-Centeno(2001).pdf

 

[JakeStarkey]

1. There is no church of LGBT except in your head.

2. Expect Brewer to veto that abomination of a bill.

3. The cult movement is yours, Sil, and it has been exposed.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Here's the whole of Jude 1


1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,

2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.

3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written aboutlong ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

11 Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.

12 These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

20 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.


It contains not one word in condemnation of homosexuality. There is a passing mention of Sodom and Gamorrah and that is sometimes used as a metaphor for gay or anal sex in mordern society but then it has also been used a metaphor for prostitution, oral sex, bestiality, conning or swindling of people and exessive drunkeness. It's all down to enterpretation.

A quick look through does show an alarmingly explicit condemnation of "boasting, grumbling and faultfinding" though which when I look at the plethora of Obamacare threads in the politics forum makes me think that if you take this as news homosexuality is a sin then surely you wlll find that entire forum a den of depravity.

A look through Romans 1 shows a single verse that condemns homosexuality. It also has a verse that condemns boasting. So if the 2 passages that are given showing the bible condemning homosexuality there is twice as much condemnation of boasting. So where is all of the Christian backlash against boasting?

Thank you for posting these scriptures from Jude, Manchester. You are correct. I have studied Jude line upon line and it is clearly speaking of false teachers who have crept into the body of Christ - the church. Christians are to hold fast to the doctrine of Christ and not accept false teachers amongst them. We are to contend for the faith and use the Word of God as our standard. I did try to point this out to Silhouette that she is applying Jude to a subject that isn't related. - Jeremiah p.s. there is more than one verse referencing homosexuality in Romans 1.

 

[Manchester]

Actually, the church of LGBT trying to force christians to disobey the stark and harrowing warnings of Jude 1 and Romans 1 as to enabling homosexuality is their ilk trying to force a merging of church and government.

And they've very nearly got it done. This decision by Arizona is pivotal. The Governor stands poised on the edge of committing one of the most damnable sins possible to commit. Not murder, not rape, for those are individual crimes that everyone knows are wrong. Institutionalizing a sin as "good" and thereby changing the matrix of the Big Plan never gives anyone a chance to consider it wrong. It completely and utterly removes its wrongness.

From there, next thing you know they'll be institutionalizing their religion to kids in schools...oh...wait a minute... They already have in California. Because California's elite didn't take a firm stand against the church of LGBT, the kids there now each May have to celebrate the sexual-political achievements of the church's messiah Harvey Milk. See my signature for details...

See how far a religious movement can infiltrate government when you let it go unnoticed as a cult movement? Behaviors vs race. This debate is not over.

Refresher course on all that 'questionable science'. READ THE ARTICLES FOR YOURSELVES AND INTERPRET THEM HOW YOU WILL.

If you are viewing your entire argument against a "church of LGBT" then you're always going to have a false argument as there is simply no such thing. There are gay people in all walks of life with all world views and all standpoints and to lump them all togther under one umbrella in order to simplfy arguments against them is to build a straw man for you yourself to burn.

I'd also say as I pointed out previously the warnings from Romans and Jude are VERY far from "stark".

Finally and not wanting to sound like a suck up (no pun intended) can I just say how refreshing it is that someone argues their point elloquently and without the need for insult throwing.

 

[Silhouette]

If you are viewing your entire argument against a "church of LGBT" then you're always going to have a false argument as there is simply no such thing. There are gay people in all walks of life with all world views and all standpoints and to lump them all togther under one umbrella in order to simplfy arguments against them is to build a straw man for you yourself to burn.

I'd also say as I pointed out previously the warnings from Romans and Jude are VERY far from "stark".

Finally and not wanting to sound like a suck up (no pun intended) can I just say how refreshing it is that someone argues their point elloquently and without the need for insult throwing.

Excellent points. So how is it they are a race or a religion? What type of class would you put them under for priveleges under the 14th? Like you said, they cannot be lumped together as a race. They seem to cross all creeds with the caveat that those creeds must bend to their worship of homosexuality. They cross both genders. So not being able to categorize them as any of those [thanks for conceding that by the way] how is it these behaviors qualify for the 14th protections?

How is it that they can force christians to abandon their warnings in Jude 1 and Romans 1 as now a matter of secular law? Doesn't that violate the 1st Amendment? I'm sorry, but being told in Jude 1 and Romans 1 that you'll burn in the pit of fire for eternity for even just enabling a homosexual cultural takeover of your society is not "VERY far from "stark"..

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I did add to my post with p.s. Manchester to confirm in Romans 1 there is scripture but quoting the book of Jude as related to homosexuality is clearly a mistake. There is something to consider whether or not Christians such as Katz and Silhouette would be willing.... A person would never be called to minister to a group they stood in judgment over. In fact, they would be disqualified and unusable. The Word says those that are led by the Spirit are sons of God.

 

[midcan5]

Dear God,

This is a letter from James, but you already knew that. I know I am being presumptuous but I wanted to share some thoughts.

What is it about all these people who fear gay people? Let them marry too. Jeez - oh sorry, that may be blasphemous, I'll stop using it. But heck, you've seen Jerry Springer and Maury Povich and Dr Phil, I mean I can't figure out why heterosexual marriage is considered a good thing! Can you? Sure causes a lot more pain for people than gay people do. All those crazy people raising and often abusing children.

My brother is gay, I know you knew that, but you must also know he was always that way, you made him right? Anyway I knew it quite young, no one decides these things. I can't remember when girls, women, woke up that longing in me. I know that was no balancing act, no choice, they still drive me wild, just a bit less so as age unfolds. That Scarlett Johansson sure is something! You made a good one there. Oh, I know I shouldn't say that.

Given poverty, cancer, terrorism, hatred, and other bad stuff, seems people often worry about things that just are the way they are. Enough thoughts for now, hope the weather is nice where you are and the family is well.

Take care, you know who

Addition to Constitution

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men (this includes women) are not equal, that some should not be served especially if they were endowed by their Creator with gayness or brownness or some other differentness in our eyes, that among these qualities are lots of potential reasons to deny them service that will be determined in a pursuit of our Happiness and either our ideological framework of justice or our religious framework of piety. Amen

.

 

[Silhouette]

Midcan 5, individual sins are not as grave as institutionalizing the sin of homosexuality as a cultural value. One is an individual problem each sinner must atone for. The other is a destruction of the very classroom, the matrix in which christians are tested. For if a whole society agrees a sin is "normal", those people within have no chance whatsoever to be tested against it. None. And THAT is the gravity of sin in Jude 1 and Romans 1. Destroying the matrix is a horrible, horrible unforgivable sin. For good reason. It is worth a hundred million sins combined. Moreso. You cannot even quantify how bad destroying the foundation of God's male/female plan is.

I did add to my post with p.s. Manchester to confirm in Romans 1 there is scripture but quoting the book of Jude as related to homosexuality is clearly a mistake. There is something to consider whether or not Christians such as Katz and Silhouette would be willing.... A person would never be called to minister to a group they stood in judgment over. In fact, they would be disqualified and unusable. The Word says those that are led by the Spirit are sons of God.

I'm not a practicing christian. I'm an advocate for what their contract with their Diety tells them to do.

Your smooth speech urging christians to not be judgmental, which is a venial sin peculiar to each situation vs Jude 1 and Romans 1's dire warnings of the pit of hell for the MORTAL sin of institutionalizing the sin of homosexuality so that nobody even knows it's wrong and not part of The Plan is recognized.

Jude 1 warns about people just like you, urging people to step down their earnest contention for the faith...using the Bible itself to nullify a more grave mandate. Pretty good. Except that the price for failing to earnestly contend to stave off homosexual cult takeover is eternity in the pit vs the 12 hail marys for being judgmental.

I guess it's up to each christian which mitigation for their actions they want in the end.

 

[JakeStarkey]

That all Christians are engaging in discussing and pondering this issue is a good thing.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I'm not a practicing christian. I'm an advocate for what their contract with their Diety tells them to do.

Praise heavens that you have finally been honest.

Your objections are dismissed as straw men.

 

[Silhouette]

I'm not a practicing christian. I'm an advocate for what their contract with their Diety tells them to do.

Praise heavens that you have finally been honest.

Your objections are dismissed as straw men.

But the contract christians have with their God is still in full and enforceable status.

Which of course is the topic at hand. You'd like to kill that topic, wouldn't you sata...I mean "Jake"..