Cons say we are not a democracy, we are a representative republic

[Contumacious]

a majority vote made us a republic, understand?

I understand that is how they get there. But that has little to do with how they govern once there.

congress passes laws by majority vote, congressmen are elected by majority vote, amendments are passed by majority vote, local bond issues are passed by majority vote. The bill of rights was made part of the constitution by majority vote.

I was mostly responding to the clowns who say we don't live by majority rule. Because we do.

Technically you are correct...in any description of U.S. Government we are certainly majority ruled via proxy. That is what a republic is.
All I am saying that our republic has been hijacked by corruption via corporations and the major investor class/system. They are better represented than we are...for sure.

NO, that is NOT what a REPUBLIC as intended by our Founding Fathers, is.

In a CONSTITUTIONAL Republic rights are secured by the Constitution


In a CONSTITUTIONAL republic the government authority is SPECIFICALLY ENUMERATED

In the US today our rights depend on political majorities and the federal government's power are completely and totally Unrestricted - they do whatever the want to do WITHOUT judicial review.


.

you are missing the point. the rights enumerated in the constitution were established by majority vote. Minority rights were established by majority vote.

The constitution can be changed by majority vote. We live in a country where the majority opinion prevails, legally.

If you don't like that move to North Korea, they have minority rule.

We hold these truths to be self-evident:

4That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men


Gee , what other rights are there?

 

[Redfish]

I understand that is how they get there. But that has little to do with how they govern once there.

congress passes laws by majority vote, congressmen are elected by majority vote, amendments are passed by majority vote, local bond issues are passed by majority vote. The bill of rights was made part of the constitution by majority vote.

I was mostly responding to the clowns who say we don't live by majority rule. Because we do.

Technically you are correct...in any description of U.S. Government we are certainly majority ruled via proxy. That is what a republic is.
All I am saying that our republic has been hijacked by corruption via corporations and the major investor class/system. They are better represented than we are...for sure.

NO, that is NOT what a REPUBLIC as intended by our Founding Fathers, is.

In a CONSTITUTIONAL Republic rights are secured by the Constitution


In a CONSTITUTIONAL republic the government authority is SPECIFICALLY ENUMERATED

In the US today our rights depend on political majorities and the federal government's power are completely and totally Unrestricted - they do whatever the want to do WITHOUT judicial review.


.

you are missing the point. the rights enumerated in the constitution were established by majority vote. Minority rights were established by majority vote.

The constitution can be changed by majority vote. We live in a country where the majority opinion prevails, legally.

If you don't like that move to North Korea, they have minority rule.

We hold these truths to be self-evident:

4That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men


Gee , what other rights are there?

look up "the US bill of rights" you might learn something.

passed by majority vote, BTW

 

[Redfish]

I understand that is how they get there. But that has little to do with how they govern once there.

congress passes laws by majority vote, congressmen are elected by majority vote, amendments are passed by majority vote, local bond issues are passed by majority vote. The bill of rights was made part of the constitution by majority vote.

I was mostly responding to the clowns who say we don't live by majority rule. Because we do.

Technically you are correct...in any description of U.S. Government we are certainly majority ruled via proxy. That is what a republic is.
All I am saying that our republic has been hijacked by corruption via corporations and the major investor class/system. They are better represented than we are...for sure.

NO, that is NOT what a REPUBLIC as intended by our Founding Fathers, is.

In a CONSTITUTIONAL Republic rights are secured by the Constitution


In a CONSTITUTIONAL republic the government authority is SPECIFICALLY ENUMERATED

In the US today our rights depend on political majorities and the federal government's power are completely and totally Unrestricted - they do whatever the want to do WITHOUT judicial review.


.

you are missing the point. the rights enumerated in the constitution were established by majority vote. Minority rights were established by majority vote.

The constitution can be changed by majority vote. We live in a country where the majority opinion prevails, legally.

If you don't like that move to North Korea, they have minority rule.

We hold these truths to be self-evident:

4That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men


Gee , what other rights are there?

according to dems and libs--------------the right to not be offended, the right for a tranny to piss in whichever rest room he/she chooses, the right to kill unborn human beings at will.

 

[Cecilie1200]

A republic is what we are. Never was a democracy. A republic is a representative democracy.

What you are failing on is that the people elect their representatives and that is NOT what's happening with delegates, the people aren't picking their representatives in many cases. The establishments on both sides are selecting them to protect their own interests.

Good Lord, here we go with more conflation of primaries and Elections.

Oh, and willful ignorance of the fact that people DID vote, at the precinct level, for representatives who voted at district and state levels.

 

[hangover]

so we get a POTUS appointed by the SCOTUS....

When did this happen?

or the electoral college overturns the will of the voters.

The Electoral College is what determines who becomes President, not the popular vote. Don't like it? Work on changing the Constitution of the US.

google it.

 

[OldLady]

The primaries and caucuses have become more and more representational over the years. So what did the public do with it? They are voting for Trump. And Clinton.
Why do we need groups of power elites to rein in the democratic rabble? That's why.

 

[Cecilie1200]

A republic is what we are. Never was a democracy. A republic is a representative democracy.

What you are failing on is that the people elect their representatives and that is NOT what's happening with delegates, the people aren't picking their representatives in many cases. The establishments on both sides are selecting them to protect their own interests.

I think that's what is souring so many to the entire process. Okay most of the voters don't want Trump. Most of the voters don't want Cruz. Most of the GOP voters didn't want anybody else either. So where does that leave us?

Most of the GOP voters DID vote for Trump or Cruz. So now the RNC is rigging the primary elections as much as they can to ensure that neither Trump or Cruz will receive that requisite number of delegates and are doing what they can to make sure the delegates awarded won't stay with Trump or Cruz after the first ballot at convention. At which time they will throw out their own rules and install the nominee of THEIR choice, perhaps somebody who wasn't a named candidate at all and/or who didn't win a single state.

Makes you wonder why we bother to extend all those man hours and all those mega millions of dollars to have primary elections at all.

Do you mind my asking what actual, hard evidence you have that the RNC is going to install a "white knight" nominee, rather than simply choosing one of the front-runners? I've spent weeks listening to people work themselves into an incoherent, frothing rage at this heinous perfidy on the part of the RNC, but . . . they haven't actually DONE anything for people to be enraged about.

I'm just saying, shouldn't you wait to write off "all the man-hours" and "mega-millions of dollars" - which for the vast majority of the enraged amounts to wandering down to a polling place and wandering back out and never contributing a dime - until they actually DO something?

 

[Cecilie1200]

pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Sorry, was there a point in there, or was this just your one lucid moment in a bad LSD trip?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Yeah we are a republic. And that's good.

Cons force democracy on Iraq and get a Shiite government that allies with Iran.....forces fake democracy on Afghanistan....but cons don't have the integrity to have a democracy in the U.S.....so we get a POTUS appointed by the SCOTUS....or the electoral college overturns the will of the voters. Your "republic" sucks dog shit!

There's no inherent "integrity" to democracy, Mensa Boy. It's just a system, like any other system, and a spectacularly bad, inefficient one, which is why intelligent people forming governments avoid it like an STD.

 

[Contumacious]

congress passes laws by majority vote, congressmen are elected by majority vote, amendments are passed by majority vote, local bond issues are passed by majority vote. The bill of rights was made part of the constitution by majority vote.

I was mostly responding to the clowns who say we don't live by majority rule. Because we do.

Technically you are correct...in any description of U.S. Government we are certainly majority ruled via proxy. That is what a republic is.
All I am saying that our republic has been hijacked by corruption via corporations and the major investor class/system. They are better represented than we are...for sure.

NO, that is NOT what a REPUBLIC as intended by our Founding Fathers, is.

In a CONSTITUTIONAL Republic rights are secured by the Constitution


In a CONSTITUTIONAL republic the government authority is SPECIFICALLY ENUMERATED

In the US today our rights depend on political majorities and the federal government's power are completely and totally Unrestricted - they do whatever the want to do WITHOUT judicial review.


.

you are missing the point. the rights enumerated in the constitution were established by majority vote. Minority rights were established by majority vote.

The constitution can be changed by majority vote. We live in a country where the majority opinion prevails, legally.

If you don't like that move to North Korea, they have minority rule.

We hold these truths to be self-evident:

4That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men


Gee , what other rights are there?

according to dems and libs--------------the right to not be offended, the right for a tranny to piss in whichever rest room he/she chooses, the right to kill unborn human beings at will.

You are confusing FDR bill of rights with the Original (1789) BOR.

By the way , SCOTUS has taken upon itself to ABOLISH the Ninth and Tenth Amendments.

.

 

[Dreadnaught1968]

so we get a POTUS appointed by the SCOTUS....

When did this happen?

or the electoral college overturns the will of the voters.

The Electoral College is what determines who becomes President, not the popular vote. Don't like it? Work on changing the Constitution of the US.

google it.

You made the claim, you back it up.

 

[Foxfyre]

A republic is what we are. Never was a democracy. A republic is a representative democracy.

What you are failing on is that the people elect their representatives and that is NOT what's happening with delegates, the people aren't picking their representatives in many cases. The establishments on both sides are selecting them to protect their own interests.

I think that's what is souring so many to the entire process. Okay most of the voters don't want Trump. Most of the voters don't want Cruz. Most of the GOP voters didn't want anybody else either. So where does that leave us?

Most of the GOP voters DID vote for Trump or Cruz. So now the RNC is rigging the primary elections as much as they can to ensure that neither Trump or Cruz will receive that requisite number of delegates and are doing what they can to make sure the delegates awarded won't stay with Trump or Cruz after the first ballot at convention. At which time they will throw out their own rules and install the nominee of THEIR choice, perhaps somebody who wasn't a named candidate at all and/or who didn't win a single state.

Makes you wonder why we bother to extend all those man hours and all those mega millions of dollars to have primary elections at all.

Do you mind my asking what actual, hard evidence you have that the RNC is going to install a "white knight" nominee, rather than simply choosing one of the front-runners? I've spent weeks listening to people work themselves into an incoherent, frothing rage at this heinous perfidy on the part of the RNC, but . . . they haven't actually DONE anything for people to be enraged about.

I'm just saying, shouldn't you wait to write off "all the man-hours" and "mega-millions of dollars" - which for the vast majority of the enraged amounts to wandering down to a polling place and wandering back out and never contributing a dime - until they actually DO something?

I am not as cavalier about waste of time and money I guess. Nor do I sneer at the effort of those who expend time and trouble to register to vote and then get themselves to the polls to exercise that precious right.

I will confess that I am as clueless about the inner working of party power as anybody else even though I have been active in the Republican Party in three states--active in the Democratic Party in one--have been an alternate delegate, and perhaps am in the one percentile of most avid political junkies. And in addition to that limited experience, I also am a news junkie who pays close attention to both what is said and also the not so subtle message to be read between the lines. There is absolutely no rational reason to believe that Kasich is still in it unless he has been advised that he will have access to the nomination or will be rewarded in some way for being the spoiler to deny delegates to Trump and Cruz. Under the present rules the probability of him earning a legitimate spot as nominee are slim or none.

 

[Iceweasel]

Not really. A republic is by definition a representative government...whereas the power rest in elected officials ruling by agreed upon laws.

We are a "RINO" government...as in Republic In Name Only
What we really are is a Plutocratic Corporatocracy - PERIOD.

a majority vote made us a republic, understand?

I understand that is how they get there. But that has little to do with how they govern once there.

congress passes laws by majority vote, congressmen are elected by majority vote, amendments are passed by majority vote, local bond issues are passed by majority vote. The bill of rights was made part of the constitution by majority vote.

I was mostly responding to the clowns who say we don't live by majority rule. Because we do.

Technically you are correct...in any description of U.S. Government we are certainly majority ruled via proxy. That is what a republic is.
All I am saying that our republic has been hijacked by corruption via corporations and the major investor class/system. They are better represented than we are...for sure.

NO, that is NOT what a REPUBLIC as intended by our Founding Fathers, is.

In a CONSTITUTIONAL Republic rights are secured by the Constitution


In a CONSTITUTIONAL republic the government authority is SPECIFICALLY ENUMERATED

In the US today our rights depend on political majorities and the federal government's power are completely and totally Unrestricted - they do whatever the want to do WITHOUT judicial review.


.

Bullshit. And upper case letters doesn't make it true. The constitution limits government by protecting our rights. If fed power was unrestricted we would need no constitution. Duh.

We are a representative democracy, a republic. Now if unaccountable delegates are free to choose candidates, the people are not being represented, those in power are. And it's gotten worse over time, now big government/big business is calling the shots and growing more powerful, at our expense.

 

[Foxfyre]

What do you know, the representatives don't like Trump! Bwah ha ha! Yo Trump, it's been like this throughout U.S. history.

The representatives don't like Bernie either, that's why Shrillary has 500 unearned super delegates.

Are voters starting to figure out that both parties don't give a damn about what the voters want? Are the people in this country starting to understand that the government is made up of con artists with their hands in your pocket for over two hundred years?

Is the electoral college going to coronate Clinton because they don't like Trump? Maybe the SCOTUS will overturn the electoral college....again.

Democracy,,,,what a scam!

The parties suck, but I don't get how elections being democratic mean that the parties need to pick their candidates with straight popular vote. Especially with so many States allowing crossover votes, which has really helped Trump. Where did you get the idea that being Democratic meant that the parties internally have to operate that way?

And as for your false dichotomy, that I don't agree with your black and white choices, that isn't defending the current process. But you mixed questions combining democracy with agreement with the process when they are completely different questions

The argument against straight popular vote is that if the electoral college or other means of regional selection is discarded in favor of the popular vote, the candidates would simply devote all their advertising and efforts at the huge population centers as those would decide all national elections. The millions and millions of us out here in fly over country would be completely ignored and would have no voice or viable vote at all.

But neither does the present system give an advantage to those of us in flyover country. In the 2012 election, Obama won the popular vote and the electoral college. But Romney won many hundreds more counties over the country than Obama won.

However, when unelected party bosses pull strings to deny any candidate the nomination on the first ballot, and hand picks delegates who are instructed to vote for the candidate or candidates designated by the party bosses on subsequent ballots, that is not a democratic system.

 

[kaz]

pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

What do you know, the representatives don't like Trump! Bwah ha ha! Yo Trump, it's been like this throughout U.S. history.

The representatives don't like Bernie either, that's why Shrillary has 500 unearned super delegates.

Are voters starting to figure out that both parties don't give a damn about what the voters want? Are the people in this country starting to understand that the government is made up of con artists with their hands in your pocket for over two hundred years?

Is the electoral college going to coronate Clinton because they don't like Trump? Maybe the SCOTUS will overturn the electoral college....again.

Democracy,,,,what a scam!

The parties suck, but I don't get how elections being democratic mean that the parties need to pick their candidates with straight popular vote. Especially with so many States allowing crossover votes, which has really helped Trump. Where did you get the idea that being Democratic meant that the parties internally have to operate that way?

And as for your false dichotomy, that I don't agree with your black and white choices, that isn't defending the current process. But you mixed questions combining democracy with agreement with the process when they are completely different questions

The argument against straight popular vote is that if the electoral college or other means of regional selection is discarded in favor of the popular vote, the candidates would simply devote all their advertising and efforts at the huge population centers as those would decide all national elections. The millions and millions of us out here in fly over country would be completely ignored and would have no voice or viable vote at all.

But neither does the present system give an advantage to those of us in flyover country. In the 2012 election, Obama won the popular vote and the electoral college. But Romney won many hundreds more counties over the country than Obama won.

However, when unelected party bosses pull strings to deny any candidate the nomination on the first ballot, and hand picks delegates who are instructed to vote for the candidate or candidates designated by the party bosses on subsequent ballots, that is not a democratic system.

Hi Fyrefox! It's been awhile, hope you're doing great!

On the two parts:

1) I know what you're saying on the electoral college. There is no perfect choice. Should every State have an equal say? Every county? Every citizen (popular vote)? No perfect solution. The electoral college tries to be a balance, small States have more say than their proportion so they aren't ignored. But really, should Nebraska = California? So larger States have more say, but not as much as their proportion. We can debate it all day and we'll never get to a perfect answer

2) On the Republican party, comparing a political party being a democracy to a general election is in my view a terrible analogy. The party is not a democracy, it's a collection of people in theory from some perspective or view. That a larger group could come take their party by out voting them isn't logical to me.

I'm not arguing parties should not have votes, just that as I said that somehow them not being fully democratic isn't taking anyone's say in the process away. Find a party that supports your views, or start your own. Or chose the lesser evil, which too many people do and is why we only have two parties who both suck

 

[JakeStarkey]

"The constitution can be changed by majority vote."

(1) Representatives make their choices AFTER we the voters choose them. That is a system one step from true democracy. When they CHOOSE whatever, that is two steps from true democracy. Thus chosen government employees by the representatives who make their CHOICES are three steps away from true democracy.

(2) And Constitutional amendments are ratified by STATE votes, not the voters.

(3) Redfish has been gutted, fried, and given to the dogs. He ain't got a clue.

 

[Foxfyre]

pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

What do you know, the representatives don't like Trump! Bwah ha ha! Yo Trump, it's been like this throughout U.S. history.

The representatives don't like Bernie either, that's why Shrillary has 500 unearned super delegates.

Are voters starting to figure out that both parties don't give a damn about what the voters want? Are the people in this country starting to understand that the government is made up of con artists with their hands in your pocket for over two hundred years?

Is the electoral college going to coronate Clinton because they don't like Trump? Maybe the SCOTUS will overturn the electoral college....again.

Democracy,,,,what a scam!

The parties suck, but I don't get how elections being democratic mean that the parties need to pick their candidates with straight popular vote. Especially with so many States allowing crossover votes, which has really helped Trump. Where did you get the idea that being Democratic meant that the parties internally have to operate that way?

And as for your false dichotomy, that I don't agree with your black and white choices, that isn't defending the current process. But you mixed questions combining democracy with agreement with the process when they are completely different questions

The argument against straight popular vote is that if the electoral college or other means of regional selection is discarded in favor of the popular vote, the candidates would simply devote all their advertising and efforts at the huge population centers as those would decide all national elections. The millions and millions of us out here in fly over country would be completely ignored and would have no voice or viable vote at all.

But neither does the present system give an advantage to those of us in flyover country. In the 2012 election, Obama won the popular vote and the electoral college. But Romney won many hundreds more counties over the country than Obama won.

However, when unelected party bosses pull strings to deny any candidate the nomination on the first ballot, and hand picks delegates who are instructed to vote for the candidate or candidates designated by the party bosses on subsequent ballots, that is not a democratic system.

Hi Fyrefox! It's been awhile, hope you're doing great!

On the two parts:

1) I know what you're saying on the electoral college. There is no perfect choice. Should every State have an equal say? Every county? Every citizen (popular vote)? No perfect solution. The electoral college tries to be a balance, small States have more say than their proportion so they aren't ignored. But really, should Nebraska = California? So larger States have more say, but not as much as their proportion. We can debate it all day and we'll never get to a perfect answer

2) On the Republican party, comparing a political party being a democracy to a general election is in my view a terrible analogy. The party is not a democracy, it's a collection of people in theory from some perspective or view. That a larger group could come take their party by out voting them isn't logical to me.

I'm not arguing parties should not have votes, just that as I said that somehow them not being fully democratic isn't taking anyone's say in the process away. Find a party that supports your views, or start your own. Or chose the lesser evil, which too many people do and is why we only have two parties who both suck

Since I don't have another party to go to that has any chance of winning a general election, and since I am so opposed to the statism supported almost 100% by the Democratic Party, I'm stuck with the Republicans. Of course the numbnuts have accused me of whining about the way things are going, but I am not complaining about the rules or whatever.

If I am complaining about anything--I prefer to think of it as acknowledging and commenting--it is that the respective parties seem to play us for total idiots to be cajoled and wooed into thinking we really have any say in the matter, when in effect, we really do not.

All I am saying is that if they want the people to decide, then let the people decide. And if they intend to put somebody of their choosing up as the nominee, then do that up front, honestly, and transparently. We could save so much time and money by just doing it instead of going through the motions of having a primary election. It would also spare us a lot of misunderstandings and wouldn't add a toxic element into the process that doesn't have to be there.

 

[Katzndogz]

This is a republic not a democracy.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands.

When that is changed to "and to the democracy for which is stands" come back

 

[JakeStarkey]

numbnuts, foxfyre, is an ad hom by your definitions.

Shame on your, you knucklehead.

We are not a democracy, until the far right can't win in the courts and want to change our representative republic.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

"Cons say we are not a democracy, we are a representative republic"

Constitutional Republic, actually – and a representative democracy.

In our Constitutional Republic citizens are subject solely to the rule of law, not men – as men are incapable of ruling justly; much of what conservatives support is proof of that.