Corruption of Government. Who is to blame?

[Steve Hanson]

Corruption of Government. Who is to blame?

Is it the people?

Is it the civil servants?

Is it the elected leaders?

Is it the lobbyists?

Is it private individuals with great wealth (poor people can't buy access or influence).

Is it big business?

Is it the free market?

Who do you think corrupts government?

it's the lawmakers who make the laws. They are allowed to govern themsleves which makes for a toxic environment.

 

[Big Fitz]

Corruption of Government. Who is to blame?

Is it the people?

Is it the civil servants?

Is it the elected leaders?

Is it the lobbyists?

Is it private individuals with great wealth (poor people can't buy access or influence).

Is it big business?

Is it the free market?

Who do you think corrupts government?

Can't believe I'm gonna seriously comment on a Dante thread. :checks hell for snow:

It's all seven.

The good news is that this is at least 50% curable with term limits. Cap the time in a particular office with a lifetime cap on ALL time served as an elected official AND in the bureaucracy.

To end voter apathy, offer a tax credit for voting. a 1-5% credit off their taxes will make a good incentive to vote. The more people voting, the harder it is to corrupt the election.

To end special interest money, make it wide open and totally transparent.

To prevent in office corruption, make bribery or voter fraud for both parties a capital offense.

Next break the incestuous cycle of Media, Politicians, Lobbyists, and Political Action committees by blocking the flow of people back and forth. It can be done by decentralizing government. No need for them to spend so much time in washington when secure electronic communication is possible for some of the business of congress. Keep the politicians among their constituents.

Prevent lobbyists and other corruptive influences from centralizing control into a cesspit like DC and New York (for international corruption)

And lastly, make it illegal to have public sector unions. Unless you make it so that the voters who pay the bill have direct say over what unions get paid like school bonding bills, you have a third party who is not directly affected by bad deals.

But lastly, until you end the entitlement culture, this will not stop. No one is entitled to power, wealth or handouts at the expense of hard working citizens against their will.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Government is inherently corrupt. The free market, however, doesn't have any part of that as the free market has nothing to do with government.

So you say free market forces have no effect on government?

No, he correctly stated that a free market has nothing to do with the government.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

K see it your way then. Enjoy.

Was my opinion supposed to change just because you made some assertions?

Of course not. How silly.
Expect someones opinion to change on a political message board?

btw the "free market" hires lobbyists don't they?
who pay off govt employees to benefit their corporations or industry.
Sounds kinda like the type of corruption we were discussing?

I don't deny that people working within the free market would like an advantage from the government over their competitors, but once the government gets involved in the market it's no longer free.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

So you say free market forces have no effect on government?

Governments intervene in markets, markets don't intervene in governments.

It's about intervention now?

I asked: "Corruption of Government. Who is to blame? Is it the free market? "Who do you think corrupts government?"

Is corruption about influence? Do people and forces not influence government and thereby corrupt government? Are you saying outside influences do not corrupt government?

No. I'm saying the free market itself can't influence or corrupt government because the free market has nothing to do with the government. I'm not saying businesses can't lobby government for favors, or that people can't bribe government officials, or what have you. I'm saying that if you have a genuine free market, then the free market has nothing to do with government.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Corruption of Government. Who is to blame? ...

it's the lawmakers who make the laws. They are allowed to govern themsleves which makes for a toxic environment.

Really? What is your beef against a representative republican form of democracy?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Corruption of Government. Who is to blame?

Can't believe I'm gonna seriously comment on a Dante thread. :checks hell for snow:

It's okay. We're not grading you on this one.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Corruption of Government. Who is to blame? ...

it's the lawmakers who make the laws. They are allowed to govern themsleves which makes for a toxic environment.

Really? What is your beef against a representative republican form of democracy?

I believe he made it pretty clear.

"Who watches the Watchmen," so to speak.

 

[Charles_Main]

Corruption of Government. Who is to blame?

None of the above. It is not who it is what. Power is to blame. Power corrupts.

A key reason I favor a less powerful Government. The more power we give them over us, the more they will have to use for corrupted aims.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

K see it your way then. Enjoy.

Was my opinion supposed to change just because you made some assertions?

Of course not. How silly.
Expect someones opinion to change on a political message board?

btw the "free market" hires lobbyists don't they?
who pay off govt employees to benefit their corporations or industry.
Sounds kinda like the type of corruption we were discussing?

A free market exists when buyers and sellers make deals without any interference other than the economic laws of supply and demand. Since a free market is obviously not a corporation, or a person, or even an association, it cannot hire anyone.

 

[Dr Grump]

lobbyists are snakes....

Why? The exercise of rights offends you? Or is the corrupting influences? Lobbying is guaranteed in the US Constitution.

It's not down here...in fact, if you were a political party and you are connected to lobbyists, you can almost guarantee you'll lose the next election. Lobbying isn't illegal per se, but it has very tight reins on it. And most political parties try and play down ANY connection to a lobby group because they know it will cost them votes...

it is the corrupting influence....

 

[Charles_Main]

Was my opinion supposed to change just because you made some assertions?

Of course not. How silly.
Expect someones opinion to change on a political message board?

btw the "free market" hires lobbyists don't they?
who pay off govt employees to benefit their corporations or industry.
Sounds kinda like the type of corruption we were discussing?

A free market exists when buyers and sellers make deals without any interference other than the economic laws of supply and demand. Since a free market is obviously not a corporation, or a person, or even an association, it cannot hire anyone.

And by your definition has not existed in America in some time.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Corruption of Government. Who is to blame?

Can't believe I'm gonna seriously comment on a Dante thread. :checks hell for snow:

It's all seven.

The good news is that this is at least 50% curable with term limits. Cap the time in a particular office with a lifetime cap on ALL time served as an elected official AND in the bureaucracy.

To end voter apathy, offer a tax credit for voting. a 1-5% credit off their taxes will make a good incentive to vote. The more people voting, the harder it is to corrupt the election.

To end special interest money, make it wide open and totally transparent.

To prevent in office corruption, make bribery or voter fraud for both parties a capital offense.

Next break the incestuous cycle of Media, Politicians, Lobbyists, and Political Action committees by blocking the flow of people back and forth. It can be done by decentralizing government. No need for them to spend so much time in washington when secure electronic communication is possible for some of the business of congress. Keep the politicians among their constituents.

Prevent lobbyists and other corruptive influences from centralizing control into a cesspit like DC and New York (for international corruption)

And lastly, make it illegal to have public sector unions. Unless you make it so that the voters who pay the bill have direct say over what unions get paid like school bonding bills, you have a third party who is not directly affected by bad deals.

But lastly, until you end the entitlement culture, this will not stop. No one is entitled to power, wealth or handouts at the expense of hard working citizens against their will.

Your arguments would carry weight if they were flushed out, both for and against. The paying for voting thing is interesting. I suspect like all dogooder ideas the law of unintended consequences would make that one a huge joke in record time.

Public sector unions? What percentage of the populace is the public sector union vote?

"Prevent lobbyists from exercising their rights under the Constitution or what? You asking for regulation or laws..bigger government?

Decentralizing government? Sorry, the Articles of Confederation were a disaster and decentralizing government is so broad a term as to be meaningless in any context.

Bribery and voter fraud are already illegal. They are not capital offenses and should not be. Why? Sanity.

Term limits have fucked up places like California.

but thanks for trying. next time get more specific.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Government is inherently corrupt. The free market, however, doesn't have any part of that as the free market has nothing to do with government.

So you say free market forces have no effect on government?

No, he correctly stated that a free market has nothing to do with the government.

and I asked him "So you say free market forces have no effect on government?"

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Corruption of Government. Who is to blame?

None of the above. It is not who it is what. Power is to blame. Power corrupts.

A key reason I favor a less powerful Government. The more power we give them over us, the more they will have to use for corrupted aims.

Power corrupts who and what?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Governments intervene in markets, markets don't intervene in governments.

It's about intervention now?

I asked: "Corruption of Government. Who is to blame? Is it the free market? "Who do you think corrupts government?"

Is corruption about influence? Do people and forces not influence government and thereby corrupt government? Are you saying outside influences do not corrupt government?

No. I'm saying the free market itself can't influence or corrupt government because the free market has nothing to do with the government. I'm not saying businesses can't lobby government for favors, or that people can't bribe government officials, or what have you. I'm saying that if you have a genuine free market, then the free market has nothing to do with government.

A 'genuine' free market? I see.

The economy is influenced by the type of market, so does not the economy and the market influence government?

Is this invisible hand so invisible it cannot be perceived of or grasped in the material world? Is it god?

 

[Charles_Main]

Corruption of Government. Who is to blame?

None of the above. It is not who it is what. Power is to blame. Power corrupts.

A key reason I favor a less powerful Government. The more power we give them over us, the more they will have to use for corrupted aims.

Power corrupts who and what?

who? People Party does not seem to matter, Not all of them that we send to DC, but enough to ruin the whole system.

What? Everything they do, every law they pass, and dollar they spend.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

it's the lawmakers who make the laws. They are allowed to govern themsleves which makes for a toxic environment.

Really? What is your beef against a representative republican form of democracy?

I believe he made it pretty clear.

"Who watches the Watchmen," so to speak.

The separation of powers and the checks and balances? That is my understanding. If the separation of powers broke down or if the checks and balances of our governmental were abolished, you'd have a point here. But they have not, and you do not.

 

[uscitizen]

Was my opinion supposed to change just because you made some assertions?

Of course not. How silly.
Expect someones opinion to change on a political message board?

btw the "free market" hires lobbyists don't they?
who pay off govt employees to benefit their corporations or industry.
Sounds kinda like the type of corruption we were discussing?

I don't deny that people working within the free market would like an advantage from the government over their competitors, but once the government gets involved in the market it's no longer free.

So there never has been a truely free market in recorded history?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

lobbyists are snakes....

Why? The exercise of rights offends you? Or is the corrupting influences? Lobbying is guaranteed in the US Constitution.

It's not down here...in fact, if you were a political party and you are connected to lobbyists, you can almost guarantee you'll lose the next election. Lobbying isn't illegal per se, but it has very tight reins on it. And most political parties try and play down ANY connection to a lobby group because they know it will cost them votes...

it is the corrupting influence....

The National GOP does not play down it's ties to the NRA and the US Chamber of Commerce, they parade it.

would bet in a tobacco state or an education state or a military industrial complex state, ties to lobbyists are not all viewed the same.