Did a historical Jesus exist?

[Alfalfa]

Where was Jesus between the ages or 12 and 30 (the lost years))? There is no mention of his activities in the New Testament. It is suggested Jesus may have traveled to Egypt or India where he may have studied Buddhism.

the scripture themselves tell where Jesus was during those years.

He was tempted by the devil, in the wilderness, and lived among the wild beasts.

That means he was living in non Jewish towns and villages, the wilderness, living among the Romans doing what Romans do, the wild beasts being a well known metaphor for the brutish and violent people who were ruling Judea at the time...

If the wilderness and wild beasts actually does represent him being in egypt or india and studying Buddhism among Buddhists then you now know how Jesus and his disciples felt about that.

Sinners shouldn't be trying to teach anything from the Bible because they lack the Truth to interpret their true meanings.

You'd think an omniscient, omnipresent god would present his message in away that didn't require "interpretation" from fallible children.

 

[DivineProphet]

Those evolving primordial microbes sure made you an idiot. Our Creator made me as His voice where He spoke His thoughts into wavelengths of stored energy, waiting to be used to give us a visible world of illusions that appear very believable to man. Scientists still believe that atomic elements are real. LOL

I believe that only in death will we come to know the real truth of things.
In the meantime, keep deluding yourself.

I'm a saint whose flesh has already died to the desires of this world. I speak for our Creator, who is the Truth.

God's created men will have to wait until their flesh perishes in this age before waking up in their new flesh to learn the new language that we saints speak into existence that will contain God's knowledge to understand all our visions and dreams that He will give us to experience.

False saint your god is but the buzzing of flies to the father of the sky and the earth. You spread the lies of a lesser being but in the end you will realize how you err when you are punished by the one truth.

 

[daws101]

Why has Judaism rejected this assertion for 2,000 years?

The concept of the Messiah has its foundation in our Jewish Bible, the Tanach, which teaches that all of the following criteria must be fulfilled before any person can be acknowledged as the Messiah:

● Messiah must be from the Tribe of Judah and a Descendant of King David and King Solomon

The Messiah must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a direct descendant of King David & King Solomon (2 Samuel 7:12-14; 1 Chronicles 22:9-10). Genealogy in the Bible is only passed down from father to son (Numbers 1:1-18).

There is no evidence that Jesus really had this pedigree, and the Christian Bible actually claims that he did not have a "birth-father" from the tribe of Judah descending from David and Solomon (Matt. 1:18-20).

● Ingathering of the Jewish Exiles

When the Messiah is reigning as King of Israel, the Jews will be ingathered from their exile and will return to Israel, their homeland (Deut. 30:3; Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 30:3, 32:37; Ezekiel 11:17, 36:24).

This has clearly not yet happened and we still await its fulfillment.

● Rebuilding of the Holy Temple

The Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt (Isaiah 2:2-3, 56:6-7, 60:7, 66:20; Ezekiel 37:26–27; Malachi 3:4; Zech. 14:20-21).

The Temple was still standing in Jesus’ day. It was destroyed 38 years after Jesus’ crucifixion and it has not yet been rebuilt.

● Worldwide Reign of Peace

There will be universal disarmament and worldwide peace with a complete end to war (Micah 4:1-4; Hoseah 2:20; Isaiah 2:1-4, 60:18).

Wars have increased dramatically in the world since the advent of Christianity.

● Embracing of Torah Observance by All Jews

The Messiah will reign as King at a time when all the Jewish people will observe God’s commandments (Ezekiel 37:24; Deut. 30:8,10; Jeremiah 31:32; Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:26-27).

Jesus never ruled as King, nor have all Jews embraced the commandments of
God’s Torah.

● Universal Knowledge of God

The Messiah will rule at a time when all the people of the world will come to acknowledge and serve the one true God (Zechariah 3:9, 8:23,14:9,16; Isaiah 45:23, 66:23; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 38:23; Psalm 86:9; Zeph. 3:9).

This, as well, has not yet taken place and we await its fulfillment.

● A Biblical Portrait of the Messiah

All of these criteria for the Messiah are found in numerous places in the Jewish Bible. One foundational example is in the book of Ezekiel, Chapter 37:24-28:

“24 And My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd, and they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes, and observe them

25 and they shall live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers have lived; and they shall live there, they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever; and My servant David will be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant, which I will give them; and I will multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever

27 and My tabernacle shall be with them, and I will be their God and they will be My people.

28 And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”

Anyone can claim to be the Messiah or a group of people can claim that someone is the Messiah. However, if that person fails to fulfill all the criteria found in the Jewish Bible, he cannot be the Messiah.

According to the Christian scriptures, Jesus seems to have understood this. As he was being crucified by the Romans, he cried out "My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46).

CHRISTIAN REBUTTAL

In order to deal with Jesus’ failure to fulfill the Biblical messianic prophecies, missionaries argue that he will accomplish them when he returns in the future.

It's important to understand that this second coming doctrine is an admission that Jesus didn't fulfill the Messianic criteria. This rationalization for his failure certainly provides no reason to accept him as the Messiah today.

Furthermore, the Jewish Bible does not have a Messianic "installment plan" where Messiah comes, fails in his mission, and then returns thousands of years later to finally succeed.

Missionaries will claim that because Jesus performed miracles, he must be the Messiah. However, we have no real evidence that Jesus actually performed any miracles. More significantly, even if Jesus did perform miracles, they would not prove that he was the Messiah.

Our Bible never says that we will be able to recognize the Messiah through the miracles that he will do. The Torah actually teaches that even false prophets can have the ability to perform supernatural miracles (Deut. 13:2-6).

REAL MESSIAH

As Jews, we prefer to wait for the "real thing" according to God’s promises and guidelines. The Jewish Bible provides a clear and consistent description of what the world will look like when the Messiah comes – and this has clearly not yet transpired. So, we still await the coming of the true Messiah, may he and a utopian world come soon!

THE JEWISH MESSIAH... AND WHY HE IS NOT JESUS - Jews for Judaism Canada

The invisible "messiah" is already here but most Christians will miss Him because they're looking for something visible instead, just like the religious Jews were in the times of the first saints who all spoke from the invisible "messiah" within their mind ( mind of God ).

The invisible "messiah" fuuuuuuuuck me!

 

[Hoffstra]

I don't know what's sillier: Christians trying to prove Jesus is the Messiah using the Hebrew Bible, or JEWS trying to prove Jesus was NOT the Messiah, using the Hebrew Bible.

guys, you're both using silly fantasy nonsense as basis for you argument!!!!!

 

[daws101]

I don't know what's sillier: Christians trying to prove Jesus is the Messiah using the Hebrew Bible, or JEWS trying to prove Jesus was NOT the Messiah, using the Hebrew Bible.

guys, you're both using silly fantasy nonsense as basis for you argument!!!!!

thanks! guess my answer was too subtle?

 

[Mr. H.]

There is limitless energy and matter in our universe. Some visible, most of it invisible (dark).

Creation wasn't a creation per se, but a transformation. From the spirit to the physical.

Adam was the spirit, Eve was the anti-event that caused the transformation of the spirit to the physical. This is interpreted as the expulsion from the Garden of Eden.

Every subsequent interaction of the physical universe resulted in planet earth being formed, which evolved into what it is today. Every rock, tree, frog, blade of grass, and yes- human being has residing within it the spirit that is Adam.

 

[MHunterB]

I do not believe Judaism believes in the trinity or a mortal being the son of God and dying for our sins and the second coming, etc. These may have been Babylonian, Egyption, and Canaan mythology but not Judaist. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Disregard my previous post, Alfalfa. I misinterpreted your comment. I believe you may be correct regarding the concept of a messiah predating Judaism.

No harm no foul.

And BTW, the concept of a virgin deity birth was firmly established in the egyptian myth of Osiris, Isis and Horus.

How long did the habiru. the precursors of the hebrews, spend in Egypt as the "foreign conquerors"?

Do you know how one says 'Hebrew' in the Hebrew language? It is 'Ee-vreet' (the language, which happens to be a feminine noun). The plural, for the Hebrew community, is 'Ee-vreem'.

Nothing to do with 'Apiru or 'Habiru' there.......

And the 'habiru' were NOT the same as the 'foreign kings' (Hyksos) .

Please, let's remember to separate one language from another, and not to be fooled by Anglicized spellings/adaptations of other languages. Just as Hebrew does not use the 'J'
sound, it also doesn't use the 'th' (either one!) - so it never was 'Bethlehem', it was Beit-LEH-CChem (using 'cch' to stand for the German 'ch' guttural - which English lacks)


The concept of a 'messiah' appears to have seeped into Judaism from contact with Zoroastreanism, like that of 'personal' angels.

I think it is critically important to note, though, that the 'virgin-born demigod hero' and the 'dying-and-resurrecting' fertility figure are alike anathema to core Jewish beliefs about the nature of GOD - that He is one, unique, wholly Spirit and has no physical existence.

Judaism also - like Islam - absolutely rejects the concept of 'substitutionary atonement', and also rejects the idea that I can forgive sins against my son, for example.... So neither atonement nor forgiveness is 'transferable'. We are each responsible for our own.

 

[hobelim]

the scripture themselves tell where Jesus was during those years.

He was tempted by the devil, in the wilderness, and lived among the wild beasts.

That means he was living in non Jewish towns and villages, the wilderness, living among the Romans doing what Romans do, the wild beasts being a well known metaphor for the brutish and violent people who were ruling Judea at the time...

If the wilderness and wild beasts actually does represent him being in egypt or india and studying Buddhism among Buddhists then you now know how Jesus and his disciples felt about that.

Sinners shouldn't be trying to teach anything from the Bible because they lack the Truth to interpret their true meanings.

You'd think an omniscient, omnipresent god would present his message in away that didn't require "interpretation" from fallible children.

But that's just it. Do you really think an infallible God wouldn't conceal his message from people who claim to be children of an almighty yet edible triune mangod? I don't think its been a secret that the entire OT and most of the NT was written by Jewish people for Jewish people even as Jesus said that he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and to them alone, during or after brutal foreign oppression destruction of the Jewish nation and exile of the Jewish people.


why wouldn't the message be concealed from the people who were always trying to get them to eat baloney, set aside the divine commands, and kill them?


The inevitable problems in interpretation began when superstitious foreign nations usurped exclusive authority over scripture and tried to make superstitious interpretations and irrational and false claims according to the darkness of their ignorance about Jewish thought belief and expression that one unequalled God was actually three coequal persons up in the sky somewhere who hated the Jewish people and was really speaking to them, their obvious motive, ruling the world.

 

[MHunterB]

sorry guys, but there never was a Messiah and there will never BE a Messiah.

its all silly fantasy, like Santa Claus and Leprechauns.

That of course is your OPINION as an individual: it certainly doesn't represent the views of either Christians or Jews.

So you're an atheist 'anti-Zionist' Jew, eh? No wonder you couldn't tell me how you davven: you probably never have.

 

[MHunterB]

Daws: "The invisible "messiah" fuuuuuuuuck me!"

Marg: I'm a very happily married woman, and I swore off other men the day I married my beloved : )) While I do like you, Daws, you'll have to find some other lady ......

 

[speck]

I am an evangelical Christian and I have been to many, many meetings where someone tries to teach the meaning of Revelations. I must be thicker than a curb, because it all seems very complicated to me. I believe that Revelations IS the word of God as given to James, but I really don't comprehend the symbolism and all of the meanings. And I have to ask, are we able to clearly understand all the meanings? I don't know.

How will I know that Christ has come? If I am still alive I hope that I can treat each man I meet as if I had just met Him. That is our greatest charge. If I am not, I will know when I walk from the haze to see my lovely wife standing in front of me again, her body healed. Either way, I will try to do my best to follow His words. I will fail, but I will put my trust in Him.

Put your trust in the invisible Creator who already planned and created your salvation from this world before this world even existed. If you trust in the Bible that Rome produced after they killed all the true saints, then you'll be deceived. Nevertheless, you're spirit will still be saved no matter if you believe in this world and it's changed holy books or the true Creator, who has hidden Himself from His creation but only during this temporary age to connect with His invisible servant while in the flesh of prophets and saints.

You claim the Bible can't be trusted but yet you use scriptures when you want to try to make a point.

 

[The Irish Ram]

But H, the order of that is wrong. Where did this anti-event take place if the earth wasn't formed till subsequent interactions took place?

God had everything done for Adam, before He created Adam, not after. Adam and Eve were both created as spiritual beings with eternal souls, <(image of Father), and with bodies > (earth friendly protective gear).
Their souls are alive and well today and they will be reunited with their original, (but glorified this time) terrestrial part and will be with Christ when He returns.

Just as an astronaut steps out of his cumbersome space suit once he no longer needs it for the atmosphere it was intended, and leaves it behind when his mission is complete, we step right out of our clay and enter our next phase of eternity.

Maranatha Yeshua Ha'Mashiach! Can't wait!

 

[Two Thumbs]

he was getting life experience.

he who lives by the sword.... that wouldn't mean shit coming from someone that didn't know first hand

 

[hobelim]

Gee...I never heard this story. You are joking?

No, its exactly like the missing 18 minutes of the Nixon tapes. It just takes a little intelligence to understand why those years went missing.

The devil tempting Jesus in the wilderness was probably just some 'enlightened' guy in robes with a box or something strapped to his head saying, "Jesus, you are such a nice guy, you make such beautiful furniture and everyone likes you. You could make a lot of money and have it all - the world at your command - if you would just quit all that crazy talk about right and wrong."

Aside from that the fact that Jesus submitted to the baptism of John shows that Jesus was repentant for some sort of sin. "Living among the wild beasts' implies it all to even the least intelligent.

I wonder how you missed that?

By all accounts, Jesus may have travelled to India or Egypt and then on to Tibet and Kashmir, where he supposedly studied Buddhism. Some speculate he went by the name Issa. He came back a well educated refined young man ministering to the people and preaching the gospel and speaking in parables, etc. He could not have learned that living amongst wolves for 18 years. Perhaps you can provide Bible references wherein Jesus became a vagabond.

Nonsense. The gospels were written to present Jesus as the fulfillment of thousands of years of messianic expectations. If he had done anything al all perceived as good during the missing years that would have supported that claim it would have been included..

When scripture cites the Pharisees saying, 'we know this man is a sinner" and then say "he keeps company with prostitutes", do you think they were making it up and that 'keeping company with prostitutes' was not a euphemism for being a customer?

...and do I really have to cite the verses that show that Jesus was basically homeless, living on the streets, going from town to town and staying with friends and strangers?

 

[pacer]

No, its exactly like the missing 18 minutes of the Nixon tapes. It just takes a little intelligence to understand why those years went missing.

The devil tempting Jesus in the wilderness was probably just some 'enlightened' guy in robes with a box or something strapped to his head saying, "Jesus, you are such a nice guy, you make such beautiful furniture and everyone likes you. You could make a lot of money and have it all - the world at your command - if you would just quit all that crazy talk about right and wrong."

Aside from that the fact that Jesus submitted to the baptism of John shows that Jesus was repentant for some sort of sin. "Living among the wild beasts' implies it all to even the least intelligent.

I wonder how you missed that?

By all accounts, Jesus may have travelled to India or Egypt and then on to Tibet and Kashmir, where he supposedly studied Buddhism. Some speculate he went by the name Issa. He came back a well educated refined young man ministering to the people and preaching the gospel and speaking in parables, etc. He could not have learned that living amongst wolves for 18 years. Perhaps you can provide Bible references wherein Jesus became a vagabond.

Nonsense. The gospels were written to present Jesus as the fulfillment of thousands of years of messianic expectations. If he had done anything al all perceived as good during the missing years that would have supported that claim it would have been included..

When scripture cites the Pharisees saying, 'we know this man is a sinner" and then say "he keeps company with prostitutes", do you think they were making it up and that 'keeping company with prostitutes' was not a euphemism for being a customer?

...and do I really have to cite the verses that show that Jesus was basically homeless, living on the streets, going from town to town and staying with friends and strangers?

On one page of the Gospel of Luke Jesus is 12 years old in the Temple in Jerusalem and then nothing for 18 years until Jesus shows up at the River Jordan to be baptized by John the Baptist.

 

[pacer]

The Best of the Sons of Men

&#8226;Ancient scrolls reveal that Jesus spent seventeen years in India and Tibet
&#8226;From age thirteen to age twenty-nine, he was both a student and teacher of Buddhist and Hindu holy men
&#8226;The story of his journey from Jerusalem to Benares was recorded by Brahman historians
&#8226;Today they still know him and love him as St. Issa. Their 'buddha'

The Lost Years of Jesus: The Life of Saint Issa - Notovitch

 

[hobelim]

By all accounts, Jesus may have travelled to India or Egypt and then on to Tibet and Kashmir, where he supposedly studied Buddhism. Some speculate he went by the name Issa. He came back a well educated refined young man ministering to the people and preaching the gospel and speaking in parables, etc. He could not have learned that living amongst wolves for 18 years. Perhaps you can provide Bible references wherein Jesus became a vagabond.

Nonsense. The gospels were written to present Jesus as the fulfillment of thousands of years of messianic expectations. If he had done anything al all perceived as good during the missing years that would have supported that claim it would have been included..

When scripture cites the Pharisees saying, 'we know this man is a sinner" and then say "he keeps company with prostitutes", do you think they were making it up and that 'keeping company with prostitutes' was not a euphemism for being a customer?

...and do I really have to cite the verses that show that Jesus was basically homeless, living on the streets, going from town to town and staying with friends and strangers?

On one page of the Gospel of Luke Jesus is 12 years old in the Temple in Jerusalem and then nothing for 18 years until Jesus shows up at the River Jordan to be baptized by John the Baptist.

And when he 'showed up' to be baptized by John as a token of repentance for the forgiveness of sins he was already a known sinner who kept company with prostitutes, tax gatherers and all sorts of bad characters, not 'holy men'..


first fruits from the dead, remember?

 

[longknife]

57 references and 3 books and not a single proof of anything.

Let's get down to earth about this.

Jesus lived in a time where youths learned the trade their father plied. By 14 or 15, they were married in arrangements made by their families and by 20 had children. What would be unusual about him traveling far from home? Everything! It just wasn't done back then. However, there are references to him spending time in the "wilderness" so there might be some validity to that.

There are a lot of things about the times and life of Jesus that we are unaware of. And, most of what we now have did not come into existence until a century after his death. How much is truth? Conjecture? Or hype?

 

[pacer]

57 references and 3 books and not a single proof of anything.

Let's get down to earth about this.

Jesus lived in a time where youths learned the trade their father plied. By 14 or 15, they were married in arrangements made by their families and by 20 had children. What would be unusual about him traveling far from home? Everything! It just wasn't done back then. However, there are references to him spending time in the "wilderness" so there might be some validity to that.

There are a lot of things about the times and life of Jesus that we are unaware of. And, most of what we now have did not come into existence until a century after his death. How much is truth? Conjecture? Or hype?

But Jesus was unlike the rest of children. He was special. He was reciting Biblical passages and scriptural verses at a very young age. His father could see he had a much greater purpose than to marry and be saddled with children.

 

[hobelim]

57 references and 3 books and not a single proof of anything.

Let's get down to earth about this.

Jesus lived in a time where youths learned the trade their father plied. By 14 or 15, they were married in arrangements made by their families and by 20 had children. What would be unusual about him traveling far from home? Everything! It just wasn't done back then. However, there are references to him spending time in the "wilderness" so there might be some validity to that.

There are a lot of things about the times and life of Jesus that we are unaware of. And, most of what we now have did not come into existence until a century after his death. How much is truth? Conjecture? Or hype?

Do you think there may be some connection between the subject of 40 years of wandering in the wilderness of sin and Jesus spending 40 days and 40 nights in the wilderness living among the wild beasts?