Do we all agree yet that obamacare was always a single payer trojan horse?

[BoSoxGal]

US Spends More on Health Care Than Other High-Income Nations But Has Lower Life Expectancy, Worse Health

 

[MisterBeale]

US Spends More on Health Care Than Other High-Income Nations But Has Lower Life Expectancy, Worse Health

The analysis of this article is flawed.

"“Time and again, we see evidence that the amount of money we spend on health care in this country is not gaining us comparable health benefits,” said Commonwealth Fund President David Blumenthal, M.D. “We have to look at the root causes of this disconnect and invest our health care dollars in ways that will allow us to live longer while enjoying better health and greater productivity.”

Correlation does not imply causation - Wikipedia

The reason our mortality rates are so high is precisely because we spend so much and take so many prescription drugs, not in spite of that fact.

Don't be misled by deceptive articles.

You have to dig into those statistics and find out the root causes, just like the article says. He is using statistics to push an agenda, without actually finding those root causes. When you DO find the root causes, you find out that the simple fact is, more managed care would only cause more death and further decline. Free health care for every perceived problem may actually make the problem worse.

We have too much money and too much care for our own good. We are sloppy and lazy.

Banning advertisements for prescription drugs might be a good start.


Researchers: Medical errors now third leading cause of death in United States
Researchers: Medical errors now third leading cause of death in United States

 

[BoSoxGal]

GOP's Obamacare Obituary: Premature - FactCheck.org

 

[MisterBeale]

GOP's Obamacare Obituary: Premature - FactCheck.org

We rate this claim. . .

 

[BoSoxGal]

US Spends More on Health Care Than Other High-Income Nations But Has Lower Life Expectancy, Worse Health

The analysis of this article is flawed.

"“Time and again, we see evidence that the amount of money we spend on health care in this country is not gaining us comparable health benefits,” said Commonwealth Fund President David Blumenthal, M.D. “We have to look at the root causes of this disconnect and invest our health care dollars in ways that will allow us to live longer while enjoying better health and greater productivity.”

Correlation does not imply causation - Wikipedia

The reason our mortality rates are so high is precisely because we spend so much and take so many prescription drugs, not in spite of that fact.

Don't be misled by deceptive articles.

You have to dig into those statistics and find out the root causes, just like the article says. He is using statistics to push an agenda, without actually finding those root causes. When you DO find the root causes, you find out that the simple fact is, more managed care would only cause more death and further decline. Free health care for every perceived problem may actually make the problem worse.

We have too much money and too much care for our own good. We are sloppy and lazy.

Banning advertisements for prescription drugs might be a good start.


Researchers: Medical errors now third leading cause of death in United States
Researchers: Medical errors now third leading cause of death in United States

Nearly all the developed countries with national healthcare systems have better outcomes than we do.

If you're struggling with understanding that ready access to preventive and wellness care, maternal care, pediatric care, mental health and substance abuse care, cancer screenings, etc. leads to a healthier population and reduces medical costs overall, I can't help you with that. You either have common sense or you don't.

The vast majority of US healthcare dollars are expended in the last 6 months of patients' lives and not all of them are old people kept alive too long. It's because we let people get very, very sick before they can get access to medical care.

All of this research has been done by healthcare economists and is readily available if YOU actually want to 'dig deeper'. I've already done the reading, volumes of it. I'm not confused, I'm simply trying to educate. But that does require open minds and many of the 'minds' here are not.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Been saying it since it happened. The one thing that you cannot do politically is take away something from millions of people that have been GIVEN something. We know obama counted on this. They knew it would be next to impossible to take the insurance away from millions of people who have it. We also know that it is impossible to be sustained. Both things counted on and Grubber admitted this.

It is not impossible to take it away. The gop lacks the courage to do what needs to be done for fear of losing their free ride.

 

[BoSoxGal]

GOP's Obamacare Obituary: Premature - FactCheck.org

We rate this claim. . .

If you're saying that about the article I posted link to, you're a liar. Period.

 

[BoSoxGal]

GOP’s Obamacare Obituary: Premature

• By Brooks Jackson
• Posted on March 23, 2017

40


Republicans repeatedly claim that Obamacare is in a “death spiral,” collapsing of its own weight. This is wishful thinking on their part, with little evidence to support it.

Examples of the GOP line:

• “[T]he law is collapsing,” House Speaker Paul Ryan said over the weekend on “Fox News Sunday.” He cited limited choices in some states and insurance companies pulling out of some markets, and he predicted “massive” premium increases in the future.
• President Donald Trump said the law is “just about ready to implode,” during a March 17 photo-op with the Republican Study Committee members who support the GOP plan. “Obamacare is dead; it’s a dead health care plan.”

In reality the law — specifically the ACA marketplaces for those buying their own coverage — is ailing, but still very much alive.

Federal officials announced a few days ago that 12.2 million people were signed up to be covered by Obamacare health insurance policies sold through the federal and state ACA marketplaces, or exchanges, this year — down less than 4 percent from the 12.7 million who signed up during the same period a year earlier. That’s a pretty lively corpse.

Furthermore, this year’s sign-up figure is expected to rise; it doesn’t include “waiting in line” sign-ups that Californiaand three other states allowed for people who had started the enrollment process before the Jan. 31 cut-off. Also, part of the difference is due to Louisiana’s recent expansion of Medicaid, which now covers some who had obtained coverage in 2016 through the Obamacare exchanges.

Indeed, independent experts predict that the Obamacare exchanges — should the GOP Congress fail to repeal the law as promised — likely will remain stable for many years.

“If nothing else changed they would probably stabilize at a lower level of enrollment,” says Mark V. Pauly, a professor of health care management at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School.

That’s also the judgment of the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, which said in its analysis of the House bill to replace Obamacare that the market for individuals to purchase policies “would probably be stable in most areas under either current law or the [GOP replacement] legislation.”

Problems, But No ‘Implosion’
It’s true that Obamacare — more formally known as the Affordable Care Act — has serious problems. These were summed up by the health insurance lobby itself in a Jan. 24 statement to the House Ways and Means Committee. America’s Health Insurance Plans said, “The challenges facing the individual exchange marketplace – which have been well-documented – include significant increases in average premiums in 2017, fewer health plan choices, and lower-than-expected exchange enrollment and risk pool stability challenges in some states.”

On average those signing up for ACA policies have been older, sicker and more expensive to care for than many insurance companies had expected. That has forced companies to raise premiums, and caused some to stop writing ACA marketplace policies altogether.

Problems have been particularly acute in Tennessee, for example, where the state’s insurance commissioner, Julie Mix McPeak, said last August that the state’s ACA market was “very near collapse.” Matters have grown worse since, when Humana announced it would cease offering ACA policies in 2018. That would leave people in 16 of the state’s 95 counties without any ACA option next year, unless some other insurer steps in.

But Tennessee is not typical. In a letter to Congress, the National Association of Insurance Commissioners said in January that markets are near collapse in “a few” states, but “in some other states the individual market is robust with increased enrollment and premiums have stabilized.”

That letter was signed by Commissioner McPeak — who is the national association’s president-elect — and by three other NAIC officers, the top insurance regulators for Texas, Maine and Wisconsin.

An example of a healthy market is New York, which has what’s been called one of the most robust ACA marketplaces in the country, with 17 insurance carriers offering plans. The state just announced a 28 percent increase in total enrollments for 2017, with 1.2 million covered by private and other non-Medicaid policies and 2.4 million signing up for Medicaid.

Besides Tennessee, other states with problems include Arizona, where virtually all enrollees have only one carrier option, according to Louise Norris, who tracks insurance markets for healthinsurance.org, an independent health insurance guide for consumers founded in 1994. Oklahoma is one of five states with only one insurance company participating, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation’s report on insurer participation, and where the average premium for a benchmark plan increased 69 percent this year. And in North Carolina, most of the state is served only by Blue Cross Blue Shield, which says it has lost $405 million on ACA plans over a two-year period.

But there are several states besides New York where ACA markets are flourishing. In Wisconsin, Idaho, Massachusetts, New Mexico, Arkansas and California, there is still vigorous participation by insurance companies. Wisconsin alone had 14 insurance companies offering ACA policies.

Industry Opinion
Opinion is divided within the insurance industry itself. Aetna chief executive Mark Bertolini said last month that the ACA exchanges are in a “death spiral.”

“My anticipation would be that in ’18, we’ll see a lot of markets without any coverage at all,” he said. Aetna says it racked up $450 million in losses on ACA policies last year, and it has pulled out of writing ACA policies in 11 states.

But where Aetna has struggled, other companies have profited. “The marketplaces are generally performing well,” Mario Molina, CEO of insurer Molina Healthcare, said on his company’s last conference call following release of earnings, according to USA Today. “They only require modification and adjustment, not wholesale change.”

And while Aetna, Humana and others have pulled out, some new companies have gotten in for 2017. For example, Bright Health in Colorado, Cigna in North Carolina and Virginia, and Wellmark in Iowa.

USA Today reported that even Aetna managed to make nearly $12 million on individual ACA plans in Texas and more than $8 million in Pennsylvania before it pulled out of those states, according to financial filings with state regulators. And the newspaper also reported that Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Carolina — after its big losses on ACA policies in 2014 and 2015 — was taking in hundreds of millions more than it was paying out to beneficiaries in 2016.

Premium Subsidies
What’s often lost in the GOP’s recitations of Obamacare’s problems is that the large majority of those covered by private ACA policies don’t feel the effect of the rising premiums that are supposedly threatening the stability of the system. Most of them get subsidies, and what they pay for the premiums is capped at a percentage of their income.

For 2017, federal officials say 83 percent of those signing up qualify for subsidies — a total of 10.1 million people. That’s still a very large number of potential customers for insurance companies.

(A note of caution: Not everyone who enrolls for coverage ends up paying premiums and getting coverage. For 2016, when 12.7 million signed up, an average of 10.4 million ended up making their coverage effective during the first half of the year. The “effectuated” figure for 2017 isn’t yet known, so we can only compare initial sign-ups to get an apples-to-apples comparison.)

In theory, a health insurance market goes into a “death spiral” when too many sick people take out insurance, driving up premiums that in turn cause healthier people to drop out. But under Obamacare, CBO said, the subsidies, coupled with the law’s tax penalties for those who don’t obtain coverage, “are anticipated to cause sufficient demand for insurance by people with low health care expenditures for the market to be stable.”

Wharton’s Pauly says rising premiums could drive out everyone who isn’t heavily subsidized, but that wouldn’t cause a spiral. “The taxpayers will have to pay more so they could object but that is not what we usually mean by instability,” he says.

A still-living Mark Twain wrote in 1897 that “the report of my death was an exaggeration.” The same can be said of GOP claims that Obamacare is fatally ill. If they want it dead, they’ll probably have to kill it themselves.

 

[MisterBeale]

US Spends More on Health Care Than Other High-Income Nations But Has Lower Life Expectancy, Worse Health

The analysis of this article is flawed.

"“Time and again, we see evidence that the amount of money we spend on health care in this country is not gaining us comparable health benefits,” said Commonwealth Fund President David Blumenthal, M.D. “We have to look at the root causes of this disconnect and invest our health care dollars in ways that will allow us to live longer while enjoying better health and greater productivity.”

Correlation does not imply causation - Wikipedia

The reason our mortality rates are so high is precisely because we spend so much and take so many prescription drugs, not in spite of that fact.

Don't be misled by deceptive articles.

You have to dig into those statistics and find out the root causes, just like the article says. He is using statistics to push an agenda, without actually finding those root causes. When you DO find the root causes, you find out that the simple fact is, more managed care would only cause more death and further decline. Free health care for every perceived problem may actually make the problem worse.

We have too much money and too much care for our own good. We are sloppy and lazy.

Banning advertisements for prescription drugs might be a good start.


Researchers: Medical errors now third leading cause of death in United States
Researchers: Medical errors now third leading cause of death in United States

Nearly all the developed countries with national healthcare systems have better outcomes than we do.

If you're struggling with understanding that ready access to preventive and wellness care, maternal care, pediatric care, mental health and substance abuse care, cancer screenings, etc. leads to a healthier population and reduces medical costs overall, I can't help you with that. You either have common sense or you don't.

The vast majority of US healthcare dollars are expended in the last 6 months of patients' lives and not all of them are old people kept alive too long. It's because we let people get very, very sick before they can get access to medical care.

All of this research has been done by healthcare economists and is readily available if YOU actually want to 'dig deeper'. I've already done the reading, volumes of it. I'm not confused, I'm simply trying to educate. But that does require open minds and many of the 'minds' here are not.

Excellent reply. I agree with almost everything you have posted here. You are very well educated, I can see that. I would take me some time to reply to this, but I have a terrible migraine and need to rest. I'll do my best to see if I can get back to this later.

I will give you a clue though. Your logic is resting on a faulty premise. To simplify, you can't compare apples and oranges. I will elaborate in a few hours if I am feeling better.

Great post though.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

The callous immorality of the right!

Wayne Allyn Root: Trump Should Ignore Those Who Will Lose Health Care Under His Plan Because ‘None Of Them Are Voting For Trump Anyway’ | Right Wing Watch
Right-wing commentator, conspiracy theorist and Donald Trump–obsessed sycophant Wayne Allyn Root appeared on the Financial Survival Network last week, where he told host Kerry Lutz that President Trump should not worry about the 24 million people who could lose their health care if Republicans repeal Obamacare because those people are not Trump voters.

Root said that “nice guys get screwed over,” so Trump shouldn’t even bother trying to protect healthcare for these Americans if doing so will hurt him politically.

And also the stupidity! Many of those who would lose coverage did vote for the Orange Ogre!!

 

[BoSoxGal]

US Spends More on Health Care Than Other High-Income Nations But Has Lower Life Expectancy, Worse Health

The analysis of this article is flawed.

"“Time and again, we see evidence that the amount of money we spend on health care in this country is not gaining us comparable health benefits,” said Commonwealth Fund President David Blumenthal, M.D. “We have to look at the root causes of this disconnect and invest our health care dollars in ways that will allow us to live longer while enjoying better health and greater productivity.”

Correlation does not imply causation - Wikipedia

The reason our mortality rates are so high is precisely because we spend so much and take so many prescription drugs, not in spite of that fact.

Don't be misled by deceptive articles.

You have to dig into those statistics and find out the root causes, just like the article says. He is using statistics to push an agenda, without actually finding those root causes. When you DO find the root causes, you find out that the simple fact is, more managed care would only cause more death and further decline. Free health care for every perceived problem may actually make the problem worse.

We have too much money and too much care for our own good. We are sloppy and lazy.

Banning advertisements for prescription drugs might be a good start.


Researchers: Medical errors now third leading cause of death in United States
Researchers: Medical errors now third leading cause of death in United States

Nearly all the developed countries with national healthcare systems have better outcomes than we do.

If you're struggling with understanding that ready access to preventive and wellness care, maternal care, pediatric care, mental health and substance abuse care, cancer screenings, etc. leads to a healthier population and reduces medical costs overall, I can't help you with that. You either have common sense or you don't.

The vast majority of US healthcare dollars are expended in the last 6 months of patients' lives and not all of them are old people kept alive too long. It's because we let people get very, very sick before they can get access to medical care.

All of this research has been done by healthcare economists and is readily available if YOU actually want to 'dig deeper'. I've already done the reading, volumes of it. I'm not confused, I'm simply trying to educate. But that does require open minds and many of the 'minds' here are not.

Excellent reply. I agree with almost everything you have posted here. You are very well educated, I can see that. I would take me some time to reply to this, but I have a terrible migraine and need to rest. I'll do my best to see if I can get back to this later.

I will give you a clue though. Your logic is resting on a faulty premise. To simplify, you can't compare apples and oranges. I will elaborate in a few hours if I am feeling better.

Great post though.

I'll be awaiting your pearls of wisdom with bated breath . . . or not.

But sorry for your migraine; I'm a migraineur myself, so I empathize.

 

[Marion Morrison]

Been saying it since it happened. The one thing that you cannot do politically is take away something from millions of people that have been GIVEN something. We know obama counted on this. They knew it would be next to impossible to take the insurance away from millions of people who have it. We also know that it is impossible to be sustained. Both things counted on and Grubber admitted this.

Would you tell us why the ACA cannot be sustained, and when it may collapse?

It's already bankrupt and unsustainable.

It's a big mess, and the bill Trump wanted people to vote for is not the answer. It's just another fail.

Try again, Congress.

 

[DigitalDrifter]

Yep, I've felt that all along.

 

[Marion Morrison]

Yes the Democrats own the ACA - no problem. They're also very willing to fix it by expanding it further via public option. Many of them are also open to single payer. Not sure what you're getting at but I think you're not making a valid point. So we'll agree to disagree.

Please use the REPLY function.

My points are (a) the Democrats must have known that the ACA would end up crashing and were probably hoping to ultimately transition to Single Payer, and (b) that neither party has anything to crow about when it comes to the crap they have foisted on us.
.

ACA isn't crashing. You're drinking the koolaid.

You don't know my politics, you don't know what I'd like to see (it's in post 21), and YOU are drinking the Kool Aid.

Try this crap with someone at your more simplistic level.
.

Yeah, I'm simplistic. With my law degree from Georgetown and experience actually working on Capitol Hill.

Bwahahaha!

Try reading the CBO report. Try reading what healthcare economists say about ACA. Try reading the positions of the AMA, AARP, and numerous other national organizations that support ACA.

Talk about simplistic - you're a poster boy.

Really? Let's talk about how many insurance companies are still in "the exchange" state by state.

I'm betting the most is 3. Competition is good. This is the opposite of competition.

This is government forcing people to buy overpriced health insurance.

That=FAIL.

 

[BoSoxGal]

Yes the Democrats own the ACA - no problem. They're also very willing to fix it by expanding it further via public option. Many of them are also open to single payer. Not sure what you're getting at but I think you're not making a valid point. So we'll agree to disagree.

Please use the REPLY function.

My points are (a) the Democrats must have known that the ACA would end up crashing and were probably hoping to ultimately transition to Single Payer, and (b) that neither party has anything to crow about when it comes to the crap they have foisted on us.
.

ACA isn't crashing. You're drinking the koolaid.

You don't know my politics, you don't know what I'd like to see (it's in post 21), and YOU are drinking the Kool Aid.

Try this crap with someone at your more simplistic level.
.

Yeah, I'm simplistic. With my law degree from Georgetown and experience actually working on Capitol Hill.

Bwahahaha!

Try reading the CBO report. Try reading what healthcare economists say about ACA. Try reading the positions of the AMA, AARP, and numerous other national organizations that support ACA.

Talk about simplistic - you're a poster boy.

Really? Let's talk about how many insurance companies are still in "the exchange" state by state.

I'm betting the most is 3. Competition is good. This is the opposite of competition.

This is government forcing people to buy overpriced health insurance.

That=FAIL.

Yes there are states with real problems - most created by their failure to adopt all the policies and provisions of ACA intended to avoid those issues.

There are also many states with robust marketplaces having numerous insurers to choose amongst. So quite obviously, it CAN work - when Republicans aren't going out of their way to undermine it.

The Republicans can't win this battle, because when it gets right down to it, voters are going to put the suffering of friends and loved ones above party. Even Republican voters. That's why AHCA isn't a sure thing tonight - because many House members have heard an earful from constituents. They read polls - they know it's not supported by the voters. And the senate knows that even more, so this sucker is DOA either way. This is all political games at this point - who gets to point fingers and cast blame in the 2018 election cycle, that's all this is about now.

 

[brummelben]

Been saying it since it happened. The one thing that you cannot do politically is take away something from millions of people that have been GIVEN something. We know obama counted on this. They knew it would be next to impossible to take the insurance away from millions of people who have it. We also know that it is impossible to be sustained. Both things counted on and Grubber admitted this.

Would you tell us why the ACA cannot be sustained, and when it may collapse?

It's already bankrupt and unsustainable.

It's a big mess, and the bill Trump wanted people to vote for is not the answer. It's just another fail.

Try again, Congress.

The ACA is not bankrupt and not unstable, these are your opinions, not FACTS.

 

[Marion Morrison]

Been saying it since it happened. The one thing that you cannot do politically is take away something from millions of people that have been GIVEN something. We know obama counted on this. They knew it would be next to impossible to take the insurance away from millions of people who have it. We also know that it is impossible to be sustained. Both things counted on and Grubber admitted this.

Would you tell us why the ACA cannot be sustained, and when it may collapse?

It's already bankrupt and unsustainable.

It's a big mess, and the bill Trump wanted people to vote for is not the answer. It's just another fail.

Try again, Congress.

The ACA is not bankrupt and not unstable, these are your opinions, not FACTS.

Forbes: Obamacare's Low-Cost Co-ops Going Bankrupt

ObamaCare will Bankrupt the U.S.

Doctors increasingly declaring bankruptcy as Obamacare kicks in, causing widespread care shortages

400,000 Citizens To Lose Health Insurance (Again) Because Of Obamacare Co-Op Failures

ObamaCare exchanges are melting down across America | New York Post

NyPost, uber-leftist rag says it's failing. Same outlet that says Spicer
chews 30 pieces of Big Red before noon and swallows them every day.
Try again, cupcake.

 

[brummelben]

Been saying it since it happened. The one thing that you cannot do politically is take away something from millions of people that have been GIVEN something. We know obama counted on this. They knew it would be next to impossible to take the insurance away from millions of people who have it. We also know that it is impossible to be sustained. Both things counted on and Grubber admitted this.

Would you tell us why the ACA cannot be sustained, and when it may collapse?

It's already bankrupt and unsustainable.

It's a big mess, and the bill Trump wanted people to vote for is not the answer. It's just another fail.

Try again, Congress.

The ACA is not bankrupt and not unstable, these are your opinions, not FACTS.

Forbes: Obamacare's Low-Cost Co-ops Going Bankrupt

ObamaCare will Bankrupt the U.S.

Doctors increasingly declaring bankruptcy as Obamacare kicks in, causing widespread care shortages

400,000 Citizens To Lose Health Insurance (Again) Because Of Obamacare Co-Op Failures

ObamaCare exchanges are melting down across America | New York Post

NyPost, uber-leftist rag says it's failing. Same outlet that says Spicer
chews 30 pieces of Big Red before noon and swallows them every day.
Try again, cupcake.

Posting articles that are already 2-3 years old only shows that the ACA is alive, well and going fine

 

[Marion Morrison]

Been saying it since it happened. The one thing that you cannot do politically is take away something from millions of people that have been GIVEN something. We know obama counted on this. They knew it would be next to impossible to take the insurance away from millions of people who have it. We also know that it is impossible to be sustained. Both things counted on and Grubber admitted this.

Would you tell us why the ACA cannot be sustained, and when it may collapse?

It's already bankrupt and unsustainable.

It's a big mess, and the bill Trump wanted people to vote for is not the answer. It's just another fail.

Try again, Congress.

The ACA is not bankrupt and not unstable, these are your opinions, not FACTS.

Forbes: Obamacare's Low-Cost Co-ops Going Bankrupt

ObamaCare will Bankrupt the U.S.

Doctors increasingly declaring bankruptcy as Obamacare kicks in, causing widespread care shortages

400,000 Citizens To Lose Health Insurance (Again) Because Of Obamacare Co-Op Failures

ObamaCare exchanges are melting down across America | New York Post

NyPost, uber-leftist rag says it's failing. Same outlet that says Spicer
chews 30 pieces of Big Red before noon and swallows them every day.
Try again, cupcake.

Posting articles that are already 2-3 years old only shows that the ACA is alive, well and going fine

Face it: You have nothing, jackass. You're as deep as a mudpuddle. Obamacare is getting crushed under its own weight.

That's how it is.

 

[Theowl32]

Been saying it since it happened. The one thing that you cannot do politically is take away something from millions of people that have been GIVEN something. We know obama counted on this. They knew it would be next to impossible to take the insurance away from millions of people who have it. We also know that it is impossible to be sustained. Both things counted on and Grubber admitted this.

Would you tell us why the ACA cannot be sustained, and when it may collapse?

It's already bankrupt and unsustainable.

It's a big mess, and the bill Trump wanted people to vote for is not the answer. It's just another fail.

Try again, Congress.

The problem is if they just repeal it and kick 20 million plus off insurance, panic will erupt.

Erupt.

So, the only way they can do this is incrementally.

This is the main problem. Right now they are trying save small businesses and many in the middle class by taking away the TAX or mandate.

The disaster is exactly what obama wanted, it is exactly what democrats want.