Doubles standards

[Hollie]

My problem with Christian priesthood has nothing to do with Aisha and Mohammed. What you think of Mohammed marrying Aisha has nothing to do with OP. As far as Jesus being married, go talk to certain denominations in the Mormon Restoration, and you will get a lot about Jesus the Polygamist: I kid you not.

What you think my problem with Christian priesthood has nothing to do with Aisha and Mohammed.

No objective evidence demonstrates that Mohammed deflowered Aisha as a child.

Do your homework.

The words of Muhammad (swish) and his companions written by Bukhari (Muhammad's sacralized biography) and Muslim, which are considered to be wholly authentic are available from many sources.. Throughout the sunnah, we have examples of behavior that makes most of us cringe.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Hadith Number 3310.




Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64

Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement




Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65

Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement



Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88

Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement

 

[JakeStarkey]

Hollie, thank you so much for doing this the professional way.

I like your sources, they are good, and they are an excellent conflict for the ones I posted above.

For me, I don't know whether Mohammed and Aisha had sex when she was nine. Convincing arguments are had for yea and nay. Once again, thank you, Hollie.

 

[Avatar4321]

Who did Jesus marry? Oh yeah, nobody.

That's debateable.

 

[Avatar4321]

Hollie, thank you so much for doing this the professional way.

I like your sources, they are good, and they are an excellent conflict for the ones I posted above.

For me, I don't know whether Mohammed and Aisha had sex when she was nine. Convincing arguments are had for yea and nay. Once again, thank you, Hollie.

That's why I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[JakeStarkey]

So do I. Christians need to be secure in their own faith and not worry about others, particularly in posting silly material.

 

[Aristotle]

I don't know if they were betrothed or married or had sex.

Sex doesnt have to be involved

 

[Aristotle]

Very simple. Why do people discount Muhammad's relationship with a younger girl by labeling him a pedophile and not Joseph? Joseph was said to be in his 30's and and Mary (mother of Jesus) to be 13-14. Why do you guys talk about Muhammad and not Joseph who was such a desperate Jew he could only get a female that was between 13 and 14 years of age?

Shouldn't we establish what the standard is before we ask about a double standard?

And considering we don't have accurate information on the ages of Mary or Joseph, how can we say someone is holding a double standard?

And quite honestly, Im not going to conclude that Muhammad was a pedophile, even if he was married to a young girl. Just because someone is married does not mean the relationship is consumated. In some eastern cultures, it was customary to marry them young and then not allow consumation till much later.

We are looking at information that at best is over 1000 years old. It's difficult to confirm the accuracy or determine what information comes from the time period and whats a later fabrication. Or determine whether the sources are reliable.

Regardless, the worth of the message preached isnt determined by the goodness of all the participants. Especially since only one person could ever be considered truly Good.

That is fair....

However by double standard I would say the standard would be based on the fact that we by today's standard and laws believe having a relationship whether sexual or not with someone less than 17 is immoral.

 

[Aristotle]

He's called a "pedophile", so I'm guessing the sex happened.....

He is called a pedophile, That doesnt necessarily mean he was one.

Christ was called a traitor and a criminal. He was neither. If the only perfect man to walk the earth was falsely accused of horrible crimes, why would we think anyone imperfect would be less suceptible.

According to Judaism Christ was not perfect

 

[Hollie]

Very simple. Why do people discount Muhammad's relationship with a younger girl by labeling him a pedophile and not Joseph? Joseph was said to be in his 30's and and Mary (mother of Jesus) to be 13-14. Why do you guys talk about Muhammad and not Joseph who was such a desperate Jew he could only get a female that was between 13 and 14 years of age?

Shouldn't we establish what the standard is before we ask about a double standard?

And considering we don't have accurate information on the ages of Mary or Joseph, how can we say someone is holding a double standard?

And quite honestly, Im not going to conclude that Muhammad was a pedophile, even if he was married to a young girl. Just because someone is married does not mean the relationship is consumated. In some eastern cultures, it was customary to marry them young and then not allow consumation till much later.

We are looking at information that at best is over 1000 years old. It's difficult to confirm the accuracy or determine what information comes from the time period and whats a later fabrication. Or determine whether the sources are reliable.

Regardless, the worth of the message preached isnt determined by the goodness of all the participants. Especially since only one person could ever be considered truly Good.

That is fair....

However by double standard I would say the standard would be based on the fact that we by today's standard and laws believe having a relationship whether sexual or not with someone less than 17 is immoral.

I don’t think it’s necessarily fair to judge by our standards. However, such behavior as the endangering of a child, sexual relations with a child, the ethnic cleansing of Yathrib, the tacit permission for the companions to rape war captives, the permission of sexual slavery (or slavery at all), the assassination of political rivals, the practice of banditry and caravan raids, etc., are behaviors that historically have been retrograde.

Now, understand that all of these things were perfectly acceptable in the zeitgeist of Muhammad’s day. But the only reason these occurrences are even a part of the historical record is because the early Muslims recording these events were perfectly fine with the ideas of sexual slavery, genocide and piracy. They were not morally objectionable to them, and so they were dutifully written down in the effort of preserving the Sunnah of mohammud as an example for all later Muslims.

But the standard for judgment are different if, rather than judging Muhammad as a 7th century Arab warlord, we instead are judging him as a “Prophet of God, for all times.” From that perspective, these events and this behavior is irreconcilable with either a good man or a god worthy of worship.

 

[hortysir]

So do I. Christians need to be secure in their own faith and not worry about others, particularly in posting silly material.

As secure as non-believers are in their atheism that they feel the need to start thread ad-naseum bashing Christians????

 

[Avatar4321]

Very simple. Why do people discount Muhammad's relationship with a younger girl by labeling him a pedophile and not Joseph? Joseph was said to be in his 30's and and Mary (mother of Jesus) to be 13-14. Why do you guys talk about Muhammad and not Joseph who was such a desperate Jew he could only get a female that was between 13 and 14 years of age?

Shouldn't we establish what the standard is before we ask about a double standard?

And considering we don't have accurate information on the ages of Mary or Joseph, how can we say someone is holding a double standard?

And quite honestly, Im not going to conclude that Muhammad was a pedophile, even if he was married to a young girl. Just because someone is married does not mean the relationship is consumated. In some eastern cultures, it was customary to marry them young and then not allow consumation till much later.

We are looking at information that at best is over 1000 years old. It's difficult to confirm the accuracy or determine what information comes from the time period and whats a later fabrication. Or determine whether the sources are reliable.

Regardless, the worth of the message preached isnt determined by the goodness of all the participants. Especially since only one person could ever be considered truly Good.

That is fair....

However by double standard I would say the standard would be based on the fact that we by today's standard and laws believe having a relationship whether sexual or not with someone less than 17 is immoral.

It most states the legal age of consent is 16. But you're right, culturally, below 18 is frowned on.

 

[Avatar4321]

He's called a "pedophile", so I'm guessing the sex happened.....

He is called a pedophile, That doesnt necessarily mean he was one.

Christ was called a traitor and a criminal. He was neither. If the only perfect man to walk the earth was falsely accused of horrible crimes, why would we think anyone imperfect would be less suceptible.

According to Judaism Christ was not perfect

Ive never actually see Judaism claim that. But if He wasnt, not one was.

 

[Aristotle]

Shouldn't we establish what the standard is before we ask about a double standard?

And considering we don't have accurate information on the ages of Mary or Joseph, how can we say someone is holding a double standard?

And quite honestly, Im not going to conclude that Muhammad was a pedophile, even if he was married to a young girl. Just because someone is married does not mean the relationship is consumated. In some eastern cultures, it was customary to marry them young and then not allow consumation till much later.

We are looking at information that at best is over 1000 years old. It's difficult to confirm the accuracy or determine what information comes from the time period and whats a later fabrication. Or determine whether the sources are reliable.

Regardless, the worth of the message preached isnt determined by the goodness of all the participants. Especially since only one person could ever be considered truly Good.

That is fair....

However by double standard I would say the standard would be based on the fact that we by today's standard and laws believe having a relationship whether sexual or not with someone less than 17 is immoral.

I don’t think it’s necessarily fair to judge by our standards. However, such behavior as the endangering of a child, sexual relations with a child, the ethnic cleansing of Yathrib, the tacit permission for the companions to rape war captives, the permission of sexual slavery (or slavery at all), the assassination of political rivals, the practice of banditry and caravan raids, etc., are behaviors that historically have been retrograde.

Now, understand that all of these things were perfectly acceptable in the zeitgeist of Muhammad’s day. But the only reason these occurrences are even a part of the historical record is because the early Muslims recording these events were perfectly fine with the ideas of sexual slavery, genocide and piracy. They were not morally objectionable to them, and so they were dutifully written down in the effort of preserving the Sunnah of mohammud as an example for all later Muslims.

But the standard for judgment are different if, rather than judging Muhammad as a 7th century Arab warlord, we instead are judging him as a “Prophet of God, for all times.” From that perspective, these events and this behavior is irreconcilable with either a good man or a god worthy of worship.

Ok so Joseph step father of Jesus never had sex with his 14 year old wife after his birth? I suppose you think he didnt have sex with her right?

As far as highlighting things in Islamic history then I suppose you dont mind if I mention how Christianity post-Jesus Christ endorsed the crusades, holocaust, U.S slavery, Trans-Atlantic slave trade, the killings of medical doctors of abortion clinics, Westboro Baptist Church....shall I continue?

 

[Aristotle]

He is called a pedophile, That doesnt necessarily mean he was one.

Christ was called a traitor and a criminal. He was neither. If the only perfect man to walk the earth was falsely accused of horrible crimes, why would we think anyone imperfect would be less suceptible.

According to Judaism Christ was not perfect

Ive never actually see Judaism claim that. But if He wasnt, not one was.

Well if you read about the Jewish criteria of being a Messiah Jesus didn't fit the criteria of a Messiah. Judaic criteria would demonstrate that Jesus failed which is why Jews dont believe in him.

 

[Aristotle]

So do I. Christians need to be secure in their own faith and not worry about others, particularly in posting silly material.

As secure as non-believers are in their atheism that they feel the need to start thread ad-naseum bashing Christians????

How is this bashing Christians.....

lol

Funny when there are threads started here bashing Muhammad I see no Christian running to the aid of Muslims yet I highlight a double standard and I am bashing. Funny, when its Islam its ok, but if its highlighting something about Christian hypocrisy then I am bashing?

 

[JakeStarkey]

All people have double standards to an extent: Christians, Muslims, atheists.

They just hate having them pointed out is all.

 

[Aristotle]

All people have double standards to an extent: Christians, Muslims, atheists.

They just hate having them pointed out is all.

Jake well said sir

 

[Againsheila]

That is fair....

However by double standard I would say the standard would be based on the fact that we by today's standard and laws believe having a relationship whether sexual or not with someone less than 17 is immoral.

I don’t think it’s necessarily fair to judge by our standards. However, such behavior as the endangering of a child, sexual relations with a child, the ethnic cleansing of Yathrib, the tacit permission for the companions to rape war captives, the permission of sexual slavery (or slavery at all), the assassination of political rivals, the practice of banditry and caravan raids, etc., are behaviors that historically have been retrograde.

Now, understand that all of these things were perfectly acceptable in the zeitgeist of Muhammad’s day. But the only reason these occurrences are even a part of the historical record is because the early Muslims recording these events were perfectly fine with the ideas of sexual slavery, genocide and piracy. They were not morally objectionable to them, and so they were dutifully written down in the effort of preserving the Sunnah of mohammud as an example for all later Muslims.

But the standard for judgment are different if, rather than judging Muhammad as a 7th century Arab warlord, we instead are judging him as a “Prophet of God, for all times.” From that perspective, these events and this behavior is irreconcilable with either a good man or a god worthy of worship.

Ok so Joseph step father of Jesus never had sex with his 14 year old wife after his birth? I suppose you think he didnt have sex with her right?

As far as highlighting things in Islamic history then I suppose you dont mind if I mention how Christianity post-Jesus Christ endorsed the crusades, holocaust, U.S slavery, Trans-Atlantic slave trade, the killings of medical doctors of abortion clinics, Westboro Baptist Church....shall I continue?

Sure, just remember that those who go to war in Christ's name are going against Christ's teachings. Those who go to war in Mohammed's name are following Mohammed's teachings.

 

[Againsheila]

All people have double standards to an extent: Christians, Muslims, atheists.

They just hate having them pointed out is all.

So, you show your double standard "Muslims can do what they want but Christians should do what YOU want them to do"<paraphrased>; now everybody has double standards?

Yeah, I know you hated having that pointed out since you claimed to have slapped me down, etc.

 

[Hollie]

That is fair....

However by double standard I would say the standard would be based on the fact that we by today's standard and laws believe having a relationship whether sexual or not with someone less than 17 is immoral.

I don’t think it’s necessarily fair to judge by our standards. However, such behavior as the endangering of a child, sexual relations with a child, the ethnic cleansing of Yathrib, the tacit permission for the companions to rape war captives, the permission of sexual slavery (or slavery at all), the assassination of political rivals, the practice of banditry and caravan raids, etc., are behaviors that historically have been retrograde.

Now, understand that all of these things were perfectly acceptable in the zeitgeist of Muhammad’s day. But the only reason these occurrences are even a part of the historical record is because the early Muslims recording these events were perfectly fine with the ideas of sexual slavery, genocide and piracy. They were not morally objectionable to them, and so they were dutifully written down in the effort of preserving the Sunnah of mohammud as an example for all later Muslims.

But the standard for judgment are different if, rather than judging Muhammad as a 7th century Arab warlord, we instead are judging him as a “Prophet of God, for all times.” From that perspective, these events and this behavior is irreconcilable with either a good man or a god worthy of worship.

O
Ok so Joseph step father of Jesus never had sex with his 14 year old wife after his birth? I suppose you think he didnt have sex with her right?

As far as highlighting things in Islamic history then I suppose you dont mind if I mention how Christianity post-Jesus Christ endorsed the crusades, holocaust, U.S slavery, Trans-Atlantic slave trade, the killings of medical doctors of abortion clinics, Westboro Baptist Church....shall I continue?

Yes. Feel free to continue.

I'm not Christian so I have no issue with pointing out the atrocities committed under that banner.