Eden Garden of the GodS

[Indeependent]

Not mathematically.

Yes, there is even an elegant mathematical formula. It is called inflation theory.

Google says no.

You shouldn't rely on google.

If the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning. If you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. You cannot continue that history indefinitely. This is still true even if a universe has periods of contraction. It still has to have a beginning if expansion over weights the contraction. Physicists have been uncomfortable with the idea of a beginning since the work of Friedman which showed that the solutions of Einstein's equation showed that the universe had a beginning. The problem with a cyclical universe is with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. If it is a periodic universe then the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same. Entropy can never decrease. Which means that in a finite amount of time, a finite system will reach a maximum state of disorder which is called thermal equilibrium and then it will stay in that state. A cyclical universe cannot avoid this problem.

It is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

Alexander Vilinken

You are talking theory and there are many excellent theories.
I'm talking mathematical possibilities.

There aren't many excellent theories.

Why don't you explain what you mean by mathematical possibilities. Preferably in 25 words or less.

The precise amount of the big bang energy to create the universe as is is "mathematically impossible".
Just Google it.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

It is a sumerian story that was recorded in 2500BC or so.
I was just reading about it. Pretty interesting.

Now read this, and see if it reminds you of anything:

The Great Flood: Sumerian version - Livius

 

[Indeependent]

Lol holy shit. Inde says the internet is wrong. Geology is wrong. Science is wrong. But google is ok

Geology is not a perfect science.
Anyone who says it is is a fool.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The precise amount of the big bang energy to create the universe as is is "mathematically impossible".
Just Google it.

I did. Nothing. Got a link, or a better way to search for it?

 

[Indeependent]

There were not even Jews in the days of the flood.

That's probably true.

No one obeyed all of God's demands until Abraham; it's in Genesis right before God destroys the Plain of Sodom.

Deut 27: 22 “Cursed be anyone who has relations with his sister, whether his father’s daughter or his mother’s daughter!” And all the people shall answer, “Amen!”

What commands did God have at that time, Seems to me God made laws against incest and lying, later, and

Moses Dad married his brothers sister, Aunt.

Leviticus 18:12 English Standard Version (ESV)

12 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's sister; she is your father's relative.

Exodus 6:20

20 Amram married his aunt Jochebed, who bore him Aaron, Moses, and Miriam.

Lot who the Lord let go, offered his virgin dtrs to the men and then they got their father drunk and had sex with them.

All according to scripture.

Since you're such a maven go find the verse; I pretty much told you where it is.
It seems all you can find are the verses that you can use to manifest your Jew hatred.

She's Catholic going to some kind of cult church. You have to tell her what "verse" means.

I know her quite well; she is a Catholic who rejects all Scripture and spends all day searching for reasons to hate Jews.

 

[Indeependent]

The precise amount of the big bang energy to create the universe as is is "mathematically impossible".
Just Google it.

I did. Nothing. Got a link, or a better way to search for it?

Google "universe mathematically possible" and all of your results will be "mathematically impossible".

 

[Indeependent]

It is a sumerian story that was recorded in 2500BC or so.
I was just reading about it. Pretty interesting.

Now read this, and see if it reminds you of anything:

The Great Flood: Sumerian version - Livius

It reminds me of CNN, MSNBC and FoxNews in the morning...everyone has their own version of every story.

 

[Indeependent]

I guess all that Temple stuff they're finding is hearsay.
Ever try actually reading something?

The NT was written several generations after the facts. Do you believe everything they say at the temple no matter how absurd?

The earliest writing of Alex the Great was 300 years after his death. Do you question he existed?

I question everything about him if that is the case. Look, Jesus may have existed, but all the magic tricks attributed to him? Extraordinary claims needs extraordinary proof.

And the proof is motive. Every criminal detective first looks at motive. So what was the motive for fabricating fantastic miracles?
Power? No, says we are to submit to the government and each other as individuals.
Money? No, says you give what you wish under no duress.
Fame? NT letters were written after his death. All disciples except one were executed for their faith.
To paraphrase CS Lewis, Jesus was either histories most famous suicidal narcissist or he was who he said he was.

Simple logic tells you that since there is no motive for fabricating such stories, they must be true.

There was is no motive in religion? Really?

The only theory we have of God's "motive" is to give "good" and as physical entities we have no idea what this means.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Most people don't realize that the reason there are no true transitional fossils

Not so at all. For one, every single fossil we find is actually a transitional fossil, as evolution is not something that can be stopped. That being the case, it's a rather meaningless term. But if you want to constrain it a bit to mean, "animals exhibiting transitional traits between two know species", we have found MOUNTAINS of such fossils. And --- wait for it -- they always fall in the timeline between the two species.

 

[Indeependent]

And the proof is motive. Every criminal detective first looks at motive. So what was the motive for fabricating fantastic miracles?
Power? No, says we are to submit to the government and each other as individuals.
Money? No, says you give what you wish under no duress.
Fame? NT letters were written after his death. All disciples except one were executed for their faith.
To paraphrase CS Lewis, Jesus was either histories most famous suicidal narcissist or he was who he said he was.

Simple logic tells you that since there is no motive for fabricating such stories, they must be true.

There was is no motive in religion? Really?

I have yet to find any motive of the Bible other than my and your salvation.

That would be motive, my dear weatherman.

OK, I should have said ulterior motive.

Religion is ulterior motive as well. I dont remember the bible saying we should explain away gods inconsistencies.

What inconsistencies?
Give me one and we'll discuss.

 

[Indeependent]

Hilarious that someone who spends so much time mocking Christianity uses the handle of one of the most devout famous Christians in history.

Its hilarious that someone that uses a handle that relies on science to bash science.

Dude, I made my career in science. I have never bashed science unless it is BS being sold as science.

Lol but conveniently ignores it when it goes against your faith. I hear ya

Please, do tell me what threatens my faith.
Like I said, I took 10 years of research to get there. There is nothing you can raise that I do not have an answer for.

The damn geological records that we have been discussing for 4 pages
Transitional fossils

In other words, fossils that have nothing to do with each other.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Google "universe mathematically possible" and all of your results will be "mathematically impossible".

Nope, didn't work. You said that the amount of energy required to exist at the time of the Big Bang is mathematically impossible. I'm not finding it. Help me out.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

In other words, fossils that have nothing to do with each other.

By what standard? The scientists in the field seem to disagree. They seem to think that, when they find a steady timeline of fossils that demonstrate a gradual change of traits (such as, the evolution of whales, shown to us by many, MANY fossils of many different species), they are looking at a record of evolution. What is it you know that they do not?

 

[Indeependent]

Google "universe mathematically possible" and all of your results will be "mathematically impossible".

Nope, didn't work. You said that the amount of energy required to exist at the time of the Big Bang is mathematically impossible. I'm not finding it. Help me out.

Worked for me.
Maybe your search engine knows what an arrogant person you are.

 

[Indeependent]

In other words, fossils that have nothing to do with each other.

By what standard? The scientists in the field seem to disagree. They seem to think that, when they find a steady timeline of fossils that demonstrate a gradual change of traits (such as, the evolution of whales, shown to us by many, MANY fossils of many different species), they are looking at a record of evolution. What is it you know that they do not?

"scientists in the field"
Of course, how else do you think they make a living!

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Worked for me.

haha.... suuure it did, pal. I'm sure you "read" the article like you read your own link in the other thread.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Of course, how else do you think they make a living!

That doesn't make any sense... in fact, scientists that make new discoveries and turn old knowledge on its head become rich and famous. Experiments are all literally designed to prove their hypotheses FALSE.

man, kind of fell on yer face, there

 

[Indeependent]

Of course, how else do you think they make a living!

That doesn't make any sense... in fact, scientists that make new discoveries and turn old knowledge on its head become rich and famous. Experiments are all literally designed to prove their hypotheses FALSE.

man, kind of fell on yer face, there

The No God Big Bang and Evolution guys are paid by big Liberal donors.
I know people who work in Universities while you sit at home rubbing yourself.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The No God Big Bang and Evolution guys are paid by big Liberal donors.

Horseshit, what embarrassing nonsense. Good science is good science, no matter who does it or who pays for it. Science ain't church, big guy... stuff isn't true just because some guy in funny clothes SAYS it is true or WANTS it to be true. In science, we don't divine truths by reading a fucking book of fairy tales over and over and over until we convince ourselves we know something.

 

[ding]

Yes, there is even an elegant mathematical formula. It is called inflation theory.

Google says no.

You shouldn't rely on google.

If the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning. If you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. You cannot continue that history indefinitely. This is still true even if a universe has periods of contraction. It still has to have a beginning if expansion over weights the contraction. Physicists have been uncomfortable with the idea of a beginning since the work of Friedman which showed that the solutions of Einstein's equation showed that the universe had a beginning. The problem with a cyclical universe is with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. If it is a periodic universe then the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same. Entropy can never decrease. Which means that in a finite amount of time, a finite system will reach a maximum state of disorder which is called thermal equilibrium and then it will stay in that state. A cyclical universe cannot avoid this problem.

It is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

Alexander Vilinken

You are talking theory and there are many excellent theories.
I'm talking mathematical possibilities.

There aren't many excellent theories.

Why don't you explain what you mean by mathematical possibilities. Preferably in 25 words or less.

The precise amount of the big bang energy to create the universe as is is "mathematically impossible".
Just Google it.

I just explained how it was possible. Through a quantum tunneling event into a false vacuum. They even have an elegant mathematical description for how that works. So it is not mathematically impossible.

Furthermore, we know from cosmic background radiation, red shift and the solutions to Einsteins GTOR that all of the matter and energy which exists once occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of an atom and then began to expand and cool. Additionally we know from the 2nd LOT that it is impossible for the universe to be eternal. Therefore, the only logical explanation is that space and time were created through a quantum tunneling event which adhered to the laws of nature. Laws that were in place before space and time.