Electric Cars Great....Indoors

[RGR]

Nissan puts the car on sale in December and intends to sell 20,000 of the five-door hatchbacks in the U.S. in the first year and then vault up to 150,000 in sales in 2013. The company is retrofitting its plant in Smyrna, Tenn. to build the car

the things are all over the Denver suburbs. See 3 of them nearly every day when I run one of the kids to school, and when out walking I see my neighbor has one. Going to have to stop and ask him how he likes it, might be worth trading my Volt to finally go all EV, and completely stop visiting those extortion stores on the corner.

 

[flacaltenn]

Nissan puts the car on sale in December and intends to sell 20,000 of the five-door hatchbacks in the U.S. in the first year and then vault up to 150,000 in sales in 2013. The company is retrofitting its plant in Smyrna, Tenn. to build the car

the things are all over the Denver suburbs. See 3 of them nearly every day when I run one of the kids to school, and when out walking I see my neighbor has one. Going to have to stop and ask him how he likes it, might be worth trading my Volt to finally go all EV, and completely stop visiting those extortion stores on the corner.

Lives in Colorado, barely uses the heater.. Out of PRIDE and Self awareness. There's a snowdrift out there somewhere, ready to test your little BatteryWagon's winter survival ratings..

 

[HenryBHough]

Fortunately we have fools!

I shall admit that, for some applications, today's electric vehicles make sense.

For others they do not.

But there ARE those for whom the make no economic sense yet they will buy them out of some arrogant belief that, by so doing, they can "Save The Planet".

God Bless them!

There is no question in my perception that one day electric vehicles will have developed to the point where they are economical. Now that may take acceptance by the green-squad that nuclear power is safe and reliable. It might take development of means of electrical generation that may not even have yet been discovered.

But that will come - in the fullness of time.

Were the world to abandon electric vehicles today manufacturers would quit working on improving them and, when power sources are available, there'd be a delay while vehicle technology caught up.

So let us love those fools who are buying EVs for inappropriate applications these days. They are the "investors" who will pave the way for what may well come.

Hey, it's their money. So long as they're not hurting anyone other than themselves or their own family economics, let's not just belittle them. They do that well enough for themselves.

 

[RGR]

Lives in Colorado, barely uses the heater.. Out of PRIDE and Self awareness.

A better description would be gizmo-geekery, plus I am a natural quant and look at the number of miles I can squeeze out of a charge as a game. Did the same thing with the hybrids I owned prior.

Here is the thing though, it sits in the garage, garage never makes it below freezing, so the car has a natural warm starting advantage. Not having a garage is undoubtedly a real impediment to owning an EV.

And Denver might be cold on occasion, but it has this wonderful 300+ sunny day a year count that makes it feel warmer than otherwise. Does wonders for warming cars sitting outside as well.

Admittedly I might be a little extreme in my tolerance for real world temps,I'm the guy with the window down and my arm out it down to at least freezing.

There's a snowdrift out there somewhere, ready to test your little BatteryWagon's winter survival ratings..

I also own a Jeep Wrangler. Not for snow drifts so much as Jeep trails…after all, it is still Colorado, and the ground clearance on the Volt leaves much to be desired off road.

 

[flacaltenn]

Fortunately we have fools!

I shall admit that, for some applications, today's electric vehicles make sense.

For others they do not.

But there ARE those for whom the make no economic sense yet they will buy them out of some arrogant belief that, by so doing, they can "Save The Planet".

God Bless them!

There is no question in my perception that one day electric vehicles will have developed to the point where they are economical. Now that may take acceptance by the green-squad that nuclear power is safe and reliable. It might take development of means of electrical generation that may not even have yet been discovered.

But that will come - in the fullness of time.

Were the world to abandon electric vehicles today manufacturers would quit working on improving them and, when power sources are available, there'd be a delay while vehicle technology caught up.

So let us love those fools who are buying EVs for inappropriate applications these days. They are the "investors" who will pave the way for what may well come.

Hey, it's their money. So long as they're not hurting anyone other than themselves or their own family economics, let's not just belittle them. They do that well enough for themselves.

Learned that lesson when I bought that $6K desktop computer with 10Meg hard drive. Wasnt bragging about it 2 or 3 years later. No longer an early adopter or investor, because all MY technology problems were pretty much solved years ago...

 

[elektra]

Electric cars are an extremely expensive luxury, nothing more.

When they cost about the same (or in many cases LESS) than the average price for a new car in America…then no…they are no more a luxury than a new ICE powered car. Nothing more.

If even half the people in one city owned an electric car it would create a shortage of electricity.

oh…and no one is going to want to sell more electricity to make more money so they won't ever want to build more power generation infrastructure? Please.



So those of us who own these machines charge them at home. In my case, without a charging station. Where do people get this stuff?

Further, each car would literally need two charging stations, with another one at work, so someone will have to build all those charging stations wherever people work, billions of dollars.

The ones I use at work are already built. And are attached to acres of solar panels as well, so they have built in generation capacity. And that fuel is free. Where do you live that modern amenities aren't available to you, in terms of a garage to charge your car in, or work that doesn't provide charging opportunities as well?

So what is the source for this new need for electricity? I guess we shut down all Industry, live off the Baby Boomer's wealth by being a medical service economy, and we then can just power electric cars and fantasy.

At the office, they use acres of solar panels. And no one had to shut down any industry to make it happen. Where do people get these silly ideas? I waited like a YEAR after the panels went in before they installed the charging stations and began handing out the fuel, people pretending this ongoing transition requires these crazy choices is just…silly.

RGR: When they cost about the same (or in many cases LESS) than the average price for a new car in America…then no…they are no more a luxury than a new ICE powered car. Nothing more.

less? in many cases? cost? When the cost is not a factor, we are speaking of people buying cars, not trying to buy a car, we are speaking of people who already own one car, many own two, when you speak of people being able to simply add another car to the ones they have, or to trade a 5 year old car in on a new car, that is a luxury. If you buy a car today because of your ideology, while you have a fine running car, that is a luxury.

RGR: oh…and no one is going to want to sell more electricity to make more money so they won't ever want to build more power generation infrastructure? Please.

We have brownouts in California, there are restrictions on water, which is needed to produce energy, we have bills that are "tiered", meaning if you use a certain amount you pay more, so they are trying to get us to use less electricity. They are shutting down nuclear power, green/renewable energy is failing us. We have been building wind mills and turbines faster then Obama prints the money to pay for them, and you think if everyone bought Electric Cars the government is wise enough to plan for this and insure power plants can be built? Green/Renewable has failed, there is no energy. That is why prices rise, because its in short supply, high demand.

Think I can address the rest? ha ha, watch my next reply to you, I think you will be a bit ashamed at your lack of knowledge of which you speak.

 

[HenryBHough]

California!

A great state to be from........

Except if you are foolish enough to let anyone in your new state find out whence you came.

 

[elektra]

California!

A great state to be from........

Except if you are foolish enough to let anyone in your new state find out whence you came.

Why would that be, cause bigoted assholes may stereotype us? In your world I should be ridiculed?

You think you have better insight from, "whence", you came?

At least you have profound wit and am able to insult people at a whim, bravo, well done sir!

 

[elektra]

The ones I use at work are already built. And are attached to acres of solar panels as well, so they have built in generation capacity. And that fuel is free. Where do you live that modern amenities aren't available to you, in terms of a garage to charge your car in, or work that doesn't provide charging opportunities as well?

So what is the source for this new need for electricity? I guess we shut down all Industry, live off the Baby Boomer's wealth by being a medical service economy, and we then can just power electric cars and fantasy.

At the office, they use acres of solar panels. And no one had to shut down any industry to make it happen. Where do people get these silly ideas? I waited like a YEAR after the panels went in before they installed the charging stations and began handing out the fuel, people pretending this ongoing transition requires these crazy choices is just…silly.

Well, there it is, you as wrong as wrong gets, is this ignorance or are you a simple liar.

I can not wait to see 1% of the USA go electric car, imagine how great it will be then, I guess it will be the 1%er's selling all those charging stations to the morons.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear Henry: Thanks for your honest summary of what's going on or wrong here.

Please note
the same or worse could be said of taxpayers forced to pay
TRILLIONS upon TRILLIONS in debt and spending
for Bush's war in Iraq that wasn't directly against
the parties responsible for 9/11

That policy was HIGHLY contested, over both terms and equally politicized as ACA,
and NOT paid for with full consent of taxpayers either!
Destroying as much or more civilian infrastructure in Iraq as was saved,
and costing TRILLIONS more than damages to our infrastructure by Obama.

Apparently, the left has to make the "same mistakes" they criticize on the right
before these lessons are learned.

We are ALL paying the price for our adversarial political system
that turns every attempt at correction into a battle in the media
to discredit valid objections by slamming one party or the other.

We paid more for Bush's war policies and unchecked military contracts.
We lose liberty and more fighting unconstitutional overreaches by federal govt.

And we lost an estimated 24 billion on the federal shutdown blamed on both parties
while the budget was short the same amount needed for Vets, about 24 billion.

So you tell me how you can complain about one side more than the other?

Isn't unchecked corporate welfare just as destructive and wasteful and corrupt
as lack of accountability for social welfare?

The social welfare abuses may be more harmful to citizens' ability to develop self-reliance,
but how can you argue that the corporate abuses of tax dollars isn't even costlier?

Think how much more taxpayers are owed for that!
And think how much of these programs would could support
if we were reimbursed! Why not set up credits and microlending
against the debts from corporate abuses of govt and taxes,
and use that to fund a sustainable system of replacing welfare
with education and training where recipients PAY BACK their loans?

couldn't we do better than this?

Face it, foul mouth.

There is no such thing as "ACA" - there is only Obamacare.

The free phones are Obamaphones. I don't care who started the seeds; it's who spread the fertilizer and watered them with money stolen from honest taxpayers.

The tax on every grandmother and grandfather's pacemaker is Obamatax.

You libs are takers.

Once you acknowledge those realities there is some hope that a few of you might correct that personal character flaw but chances diminish with each such of the government teat.

Suck on!

 

[HenryBHough]

Why would that be, cause bigoted assholes may stereotype us? In your world I should be ridiculed?

That would depend.

If you had departed Californicacia ultimately applauded for your wisdom but only after an initial period of chiding for having taken so long to come to your senses. So, yes, that might be considered a sort of ridicule. Temporary, though, unless (being of exceptionally think skin) you chose not to take it gracefully and returned. There is a rather unfortunate recidivism rate.....

Staying there? That would bring ridicule. Albeit only among those escapees who learned of your indifference to your own plight. Others would be unaware. Not something you might wish to publicize.

 

[HenryBHough]

Below partially quoted to address only salient (from my point of view) issues:

Please note the same or worse could be said of taxpayers forced to pay TRILLIONS upon TRILLIONS in debt and spendingfor Bush's war in Iraq that wasn't directly against the parties responsible for 9/11......

That policy was HIGHLY contested, over both terms and equally politicized as ACA and NOT paid for with full consent of taxpayers either! Destroying as much or more civilian infrastructure in Iraq as was saved, and costing TRILLIONS more than damages to our infrastructure by Obama.......

Apparently, the left has to make the "same mistakes" they criticize on the right before these lessons are learned.

Fair enough. The difference is that, though you may have failed to notice, Bush is no longer president, so to borrow the words of the great sage, Hillary Rodham Clinton: "What difference does it make".

Have a hard look at the alleged "TRILLIONS and TRILLIONS spent on a futile war and the multiple TRILLIONS squandered by the current regime. Use fingers to count the one; toes to count the other. One has been more wastrel than the other and that one is STILL spending!

The Kenyan fella who promised to fix all evils and soothe all wounds has been at it (in case ye might not have noticed) for some six (6) years and has only continued the same sort of policies you disliked when Bush was (past tense of "is") president. So I guess you're almost right though I believe you're understating things. It's not that it's going to take Your New Messiah longer to learn - it's that He will never learn.

Perhaps a non-adversarial form of government might solve all that. Would you prefer a Russian or German style of one-party system?

So you tell me how you can complain about one side more than the other?

Quite simply because one side is in power just now. Presidency and Senate. Both failed. Were there some other party in power just now and if they had done the same madness then they, too, would be deserving of wrath. But, y'see, they're not. Not in power, that is. Not much point in complaining about the other when they're not in office so, "What difference does it make".

Isn't unchecked corporate welfare just as destructive and wasteful and corrupt as lack of accountability for social welfare?

The social welfare abuses may be more harmful to citizens' ability to develop self-reliance,
but how can you argue that the corporate abuses of tax dollars isn't even costlier?

Think how much more taxpayers are owed for that!
And think how much of these programs would could support
if we were reimbursed! Why not set up credits and microlending
against the debts from corporate abuses of govt and taxes,
and use that to fund a sustainable system of replacing welfare
with education and training where recipients PAY BACK their loans?

Some good ideas there! I could get behind several of them but I won't waste energy on any until I see you have obtained written permission from George Soros to allow.

 

[elektra]

Why would that be, cause bigoted assholes may stereotype us? In your world I should be ridiculed?

That would depend.

If you had departed Californicacia ultimately applauded for your wisdom but only after an initial period of chiding for having taken so long to come to your senses. So, yes, that might be considered a sort of ridicule. Temporary, though, unless (being of exceptionally think skin) you chose not to take it gracefully and returned. There is a rather unfortunate recidivism rate.....

Staying there? That would bring ridicule. Albeit only among those escapees who learned of your indifference to your own plight. Others would be unaware. Not something you might wish to publicize.

I guess I should just desert my children that are established in California. Running from California is not a long term solution, the problems of California are keenly felt across the country. We began the slow expensive polluting march towards installing millions upon millions of Wind Turbines in this Country, the effect is seen in the price you pay for Gasoline, the price you pay for a pound of Hamburger, the cost of Almonds and Pistachios. The rise in price you pay for a Big Mac reflects directly the rise in price that Green/Renewable Energy costs.

California is the problem of the Nation. Is in not the Presidents first duty to protect the Citizens of the United States of America? The country has failed California, and the failing California is destroying the Country.

Where do I run? Who is not producing any Green Energy? Where do I go to be free to live, free from the constraints placed on my life by the development of Green Energy which steals the wealth of generations thus shackling me in chains. Chains of indebtedness leaving me zero money to be free, to move, to find life elsewhere.

I did not take you comment with thin skin, maybe my reply was harsh, reading more into what you stated then you intended, but that fact is many do think the sentiment I believe I was responding to.

 

[RGR]

RGR: When they cost about the same (or in many cases LESS) than the average price for a new car in America…then no…they are no more a luxury than a new ICE powered car. Nothing more.

less? in many cases? cost? When the cost is not a factor, we are speaking of people buying cars, not trying to buy a car, we are speaking of people who already own one car, many own two, when you speak of people being able to simply add another car to the ones they have, or to trade a 5 year old car in on a new car, that is a luxury. If you buy a car today because of your ideology, while you have a fine running car, that is a luxury.

Luxury if you live alone perhaps. Every street in my middle class neighborhood has 2, 3 or even 4 cars sitting beside it, for the wife to work, the kids, a spare, and certainly they are not Mercedes and BMW's but normal, run of the mill family sedans, pickup trucks, jeeps, minivans, etc etc.

A middle class American family, while quite rich by global standards, is still middle class in America, and they can certainly afford more than one car. So it is not a luxury, it is a purchasing decision, and like many purchasing decisions can be made in addition to, or in lieu of, others.

Feel free to be happy with a 7 person family and a single automobile. Some might find this modestly inconvenient, inconvenient enough for make room for a 5 year old Corolla to park next to the family mini-van. Or EV.

RGR: oh…and no one is going to want to sell more electricity to make more money so they won't ever want to build more power generation infrastructure? Please.

We have brownouts in California, there are restrictions on water, which is needed to produce energy, we have bills that are "tiered", meaning if you use a certain amount you pay more, so they are trying to get us to use less electricity.

And Zimbabwe took a country functioning reasonably well and turned it into a disaster because of terrible political decisions.

Don't blame your problems on anything other than the standard short sighted nonsense that Californians push out upon the world in the form of Hollywood and reality TV. Don't have enough electricity? Don't demand it come from windmills. Pay more for your electricity. Punish NIMBYS by hanging them in the streets.

Or move to Texas….certainly they don't appear to be near as short sighted as Californians, but where we live is where we live. So you either deal with your short sighted leaders, or move elsewhere and deal with those conditions. In neither case do you get to blame the places doing it BETTER for your hardships on the Left Coast.

They are shutting down nuclear power, green/renewable energy is failing us. We have been building wind mills and turbines faster then Obama prints the money to pay for them, and you think if everyone bought Electric Cars the government is wise enough to plan for this and insure power plants can be built? Green/Renewable has failed, there is no energy. That is why prices rise, because its in short supply, high demand.

Short supply that is MANDATED by your leaders is completely different than the geologic abundance of oil, natural gas, uranium and coal.

Vote better. Get your friends and neighbors to vote better. But it certainly isn't the rest of the countries fault that those in your state have decided to DO these things to you.

 

[RGR]

California!

A great state to be from........

Except if you are foolish enough to let anyone in your new state find out whence you came.

Why would that be, cause bigoted assholes may stereotype us? In your world I should be ridiculed?

No. You should be ridiculed for thinking the rest of the country is managed in as stupid a manner as California. Most aren't.

I recommend you move, if you think where you are is THAT bad. Otherwise, OBVIOUSLY, it isn't bad enough, therefore it is your CHOICE to subject yourself to that environment, which by extension means you can't bitch about it as though it is someone else's fault.

 

[RGR]

I guess I should just desert my children that are established in California.

Why? Did they learn from you so poorly that you must stick around to help them manage their well established lives there?

You CHOOSE to live in California, then you CHOOSE to subject yourself to whatever the rules of the state are, it doesn't matter WHY, only that YOU made the choice. So now live with the consequences, certainly it isn't OUR fault you decide to live there.

Running from California is not a long term solution, the problems of California are keenly felt across the country.

Really? I plug in my EV for free at Kohls. Same as at work. I pay about $0.06/kWh for my electricity. 13% of that came from windmills last year. Another 20% came from the panels on my garage roof. The rest of the time I use abundant and relatively cheap natural gas for heating this and that. So I don't even NOTICE some of the items you are whining about. Your employer doesn't provide free fuel for your car? Too bad for you…vote differently next time.

We began the slow expensive polluting march towards installing millions upon millions of Wind Turbines in this Country, the effect is seen in the price you pay for Gasoline, the price you pay for a pound of Hamburger, the cost of Almonds and Pistachios. The rise in price you pay for a Big Mac reflects directly the rise in price that Green/Renewable Energy costs.

The price of gasoline YOU pay is not what I pay. I recommend you vote better next time. Or move.

California is the problem of the Nation. Is in not the Presidents first duty to protect the Citizens of the United States of America? The country has failed California, and the failing California is destroying the Country.

Tell it to the President YOUR state voted for. Maybe next time you'll understand that voting matters. Tell your friends and neighbors.

Where do I run?

Somewhere else. Get started now, why are you wasting time posting?

Who is not producing any Green Energy?

Those of us who pay $0.06/kWh are producing it, including on my garage roof. Nothing wrong with making our power from the sun as far as I can tell.

Where do I go to be free to live, free from the constraints placed on my life by the development of Green Energy which steals the wealth of generations thus shackling me in chains. Chains of indebtedness leaving me zero money to be free, to move, to find life elsewhere.

The beauty of a free country. Make up your own damn mind, those of us NOT in California know what the answer ISN'T…..and have already made our choice. Make your own and just stop whining already.

 

[elektra]

California!

A great state to be from........

Except if you are foolish enough to let anyone in your new state find out whence you came.

Why would that be, cause bigoted assholes may stereotype us? In your world I should be ridiculed?

No. You should be ridiculed for thinking the rest of the country is managed in as stupid a manner as California. Most aren't.

I recommend you move, if you think where you are is THAT bad. Otherwise, OBVIOUSLY, it isn't bad enough, therefore it is your CHOICE to subject yourself to that environment, which by extension means you can't bitch about it as though it is someone else's fault.

Your representatives voted and funded all that is happening in California. It is the other states failures that resulted in illegal immigration. It's your repressive profiting. We are not alone. I difference and ignorance by all other states is the real probl em in California.

 

[elektra]

I guess I should just desert my children that are established in California.

Why? Did they learn from you so poorly that you must stick around to help them manage their well established lives there?

You CHOOSE to live in California, then you CHOOSE to subject yourself to whatever the rules of the state are, it doesn't matter WHY, only that YOU made the choice. So now live with the consequences, certainly it isn't OUR fault you decide to live there.

Running from California is not a long term solution, the problems of California are keenly felt across the country.

Really? I plug in my EV for free at Kohls. Same as at work. I pay about $0.06/kWh for my electricity. 13% of that came from windmills last year. Another 20% came from the panels on my garage roof. The rest of the time I use abundant and relatively cheap natural gas for heating this and that. So I don't even NOTICE some of the items you are whining about. Your employer doesn't provide free fuel for your car? Too bad for you…vote differently next time.



The price of gasoline YOU pay is not what I pay. I recommend you vote better next time. Or move.



Tell it to the President YOUR state voted for. Maybe next time you'll understand that voting matters. Tell your friends and neighbors.



Somewhere else. Get started now, why are you wasting time posting?

Who is not producing any Green Energy?

Those of us who pay $0.06/kWh are producing it, including on my garage roof. Nothing wrong with making our power from the sun as far as I can tell.

Where do I go to be free to live, free from the constraints placed on my life by the development of Green Energy which steals the wealth of generations thus shackling me in chains. Chains of indebtedness leaving me zero money to be free, to move, to find life elsewhere.

The beauty of a free country. Make up your own damn mind, those of us NOT in California know what the answer ISN'T…..and have already made our choice. Make your own and just stop whining already.

Solar on your roof is a luxury that is subsidized. Of course you can not admit this, you must attempt to define luxury as anything but.

 

[HenryBHough]

Beyond a certain age actuarial tables make it plain that there is NO POINT in buying anything solar as one is unlikely to live long enough to recover costs and certainly not to profit.

Of course for those still in infancy (defined in Obama as "under 26") might expect a payback if they had a home of their own and if they had a job to pay the fraction of the installation that is not just one suck of the government teat away.

 

[RGR]

No. You should be ridiculed for thinking the rest of the country is managed in as stupid a manner as California. Most aren't.

I recommend you move, if you think where you are is THAT bad. Otherwise, OBVIOUSLY, it isn't bad enough, therefore it is your CHOICE to subject yourself to that environment, which by extension means you can't bitch about it as though it is someone else's fault.

Your representatives voted and funded all that is happening in California.

Could be. Do you have recommendations on how I should vote, because what they voted for, for YOU, they didn't appear to vote for, for ME.

Certainly no brownouts as of late, a fair chunk of renewable energy, decent electricity rates, no discrimination against oil and gas production like they have in California, sounds like I voted for folks who treated my state pretty well, do you think your local representation got in the way somehow and screwed you Californians over?

It is the other states failures that resulted in illegal immigration.

I recommend you vote for fine upstanding folks who will make illegal immigration illegal, and then actually ENFORCE the rules.

It's your repressive profiting. We are not alone. I difference and ignorance by all other states is the real probl em in California.

Vote better next time. Or move to a state where the ethnic makeup is more to your liking.