Euthanasia

[Sky Dancer]

Intent is everything in this issue. If the intent is to keep a patient as pain free as possible while he or she dies naturally, that's one thing.

If the idea is to give someone a lethal injection to stop the heart because you can't be bothered taking care of the patient, that's another.

This isn't semantics. These are different scenarios.

 

[koshergrl]

But you can't change the law to make it legal to commit murder based upon the belief that everybody will have good intent and won't abuse it. That's just not the way the world works, and it's certainly not the way murder works.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Sure...but just saying. It's one thing to put your trust in somebody when you're sitting right there, and you're able to make the choice to do it...(it's called throwing your heart over)....

It's another to say "hey if I'm unable to speak for myself, go ahead and kill me if you think it's best". Little bit different scenario.

And it's not just about whether or not they are capable of making an ethical decision..one assumes most of your loved ones will have your best interests at heart. It's also about the burden you place on THEM because you're too chicken shit to die as man has done since time immemorial...not on your own terms, but on the terms of whatever caprice of the world determines your method of going.

I wouldn't want someone to make the decision for me to die. I would like to have pain medication if I'm unable to keep my mind steady in meditation.

Medicine interferes and tries to keep patients alive when they're dying. Some patients choose to have every treatment and every intervention--feeding tubes, IV's, O2, intubation.

Not everyone wants all that but some of us want to die naturally.

I think some people need to educate themselves about what is and isn't palliative care.

Dying is like labor. Some women want a completely natural experience, no epiderals or anything.

 

[AVG-JOE]

"Allow"...lol..as if you're granting them a favor.

I find it interesting that your litmus test is whether or not you can wipe your own ass.

What if you lose your arms in an accident? Should your wife opt out of life saving surgery to keep you from bleeding out based upon the fact that you won't be able to wipe your own ass when you wake up after surgery, and possibly never again after?

That's the official litmus test. Ass wiping capabilities (or lack thereof). The assumption of course is that the inability to find my own ass-hole will be but one of many self-care issues I'll have if that one comes into play.

You have to remember though, I'm in my mid 50's and all my kids are grown and on their own. Any time I have now is gravy on the cake - I'll not spend it watching "Days of Our Lives" while tax-payers pay some kid to spoon-feed me Jello and clean up after me.

 

[Sky Dancer]

You let him suffer a long slow painful death. Death was going to happen...and YOU let hims suffer for selfish reasons of your own. You let him suffer for YOUR religious beliefs.

You weren't there and you don't know shit. My dog died a natural, and pain free death.
I gave him pain meds and made him as comfortable as possible.

I did not wish him to suffer, I wished him to die the way he lived. A noble and loving being, I was with him around the clock, giving 24 hour care.

I am confident that my dog did not suffer. I was under the vet's direction the entire time.

My spiritual beliefs are none of your business.

We're back to where we started. On the outs.

That is not quite the way you presented it before you asked to have the thread removed..... You were very clear you did not put your dog down on strict orders of your lama.....

I was clear that I was advised not to euthanize my dog. That is consistent with Buddhist teachings.

My dog recieved the best of care, and died naturally. He did not die in pain.

This was a family decision, made with my wife, my vet and my spiritual teacher advising.

Euthanasia is making a decision to kill another living being. Providing pain medication is part of palliative care in hospice. You may want to educate yourself on animal hospice.

 

[syrenn]

Intent is everything in this issue. If the intent is to keep a patient as pain free as possible while he or she dies naturally, that's one thing.

If the idea is to give someone a lethal injection to stop the heart because you can't be bothered taking care of the patient, that's another.

This isn't semantics. These are different scenarios.

I do believe the only person who brought up the issue of not wanting to be bothered is koshergrl.

Everyone else as far as i am reading is saying the same thing. Taking someone out of pain.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Intent is everything in this issue. If the intent is to keep a patient as pain free as possible while he or she dies naturally, that's one thing.

If the idea is to give someone a lethal injection to stop the heart because you can't be bothered taking care of the patient, that's another.

This isn't semantics. These are different scenarios.

I do believe the only person who brought up the issue of not wanting to be bothered is koshergrl.

Everyone else as far as i am reading is saying the same thing. Taking someone out of pain.

No, you are saying kill them. I'm not. I'm saying administer pain meds and let the being die naturally.

They are completely different.

 

[syrenn]

Sure...but just saying. It's one thing to put your trust in somebody when you're sitting right there, and you're able to make the choice to do it...(it's called throwing your heart over)....

It's another to say "hey if I'm unable to speak for myself, go ahead and kill me if you think it's best". Little bit different scenario.

And it's not just about whether or not they are capable of making an ethical decision..one assumes most of your loved ones will have your best interests at heart. It's also about the burden you place on THEM because you're too chicken shit to die as man has done since time immemorial...not on your own terms, but on the terms of whatever caprice of the world determines your method of going.

I wouldn't want someone to make the decision for me to die. I would like to have pain medication if I'm unable to keep my mind steady in meditation.

Medicine interferes and tries to keep patients alive when they're dying. Some patients choose to have every treatment and every intervention--feeding tubes, IV's, O2, intubation.

Not everyone wants all that but some of us want to die naturally.

I think some people need to educate themselves about what is and isn't palliative care.

Dying is like labor. Some women want a completely natural experience, no epiderals or anything.

Agreed.

and some want that natural birth....and the doctor stops it and gives a c section
some want that natural birth ..up to the point and until the pain is to much..and then they scream for pain meds.

And some know from the start.... they want the pain meds.

 

[Sky Dancer]

But you can't change the law to make it legal to commit murder based upon the belief that everybody will have good intent and won't abuse it. That's just not the way the world works, and it's certainly not the way murder works.

syrenn is ok committing murder.

 

[syrenn]

Intent is everything in this issue. If the intent is to keep a patient as pain free as possible while he or she dies naturally, that's one thing.

If the idea is to give someone a lethal injection to stop the heart because you can't be bothered taking care of the patient, that's another.

This isn't semantics. These are different scenarios.

I do believe the only person who brought up the issue of not wanting to be bothered is koshergrl.

Everyone else as far as i am reading is saying the same thing. Taking someone out of pain.

No, you are saying kill them. I'm not. I'm saying administer pain meds and let the being die naturally.

They are completely different.

Semantics. The end result is the same.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Sure...but just saying. It's one thing to put your trust in somebody when you're sitting right there, and you're able to make the choice to do it...(it's called throwing your heart over)....

It's another to say "hey if I'm unable to speak for myself, go ahead and kill me if you think it's best". Little bit different scenario.

And it's not just about whether or not they are capable of making an ethical decision..one assumes most of your loved ones will have your best interests at heart. It's also about the burden you place on THEM because you're too chicken shit to die as man has done since time immemorial...not on your own terms, but on the terms of whatever caprice of the world determines your method of going.

I wouldn't want someone to make the decision for me to die. I would like to have pain medication if I'm unable to keep my mind steady in meditation.

Medicine interferes and tries to keep patients alive when they're dying. Some patients choose to have every treatment and every intervention--feeding tubes, IV's, O2, intubation.

Not everyone wants all that but some of us want to die naturally.

I think some people need to educate themselves about what is and isn't palliative care.

Dying is like labor. Some women want a completely natural experience, no epiderals or anything.

Agreed.

and some want that natural birth....and the doctor stops it and gives a c section
some want that natural birth ..up to the point and until the pain is to much..and then they scream for pain meds.

And some know from the start.... they want the pain meds.

I wouldn't want you anywhere near my loved ones.

 

[syrenn]

But you can't change the law to make it legal to commit murder based upon the belief that everybody will have good intent and won't abuse it. That's just not the way the world works, and it's certainly not the way murder works.

syrenn is ok committing murder.

And you sky are ok with allowing pain and suffering.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I do believe the only person who brought up the issue of not wanting to be bothered is koshergrl.

Everyone else as far as i am reading is saying the same thing. Taking someone out of pain.

No, you are saying kill them. I'm not. I'm saying administer pain meds and let the being die naturally.

They are completely different.

Semantics. The end result is the same.

One is murder and one is not. One is unnatural and one is not. Clearly you favor murder.

Both die, one of natural causes and one at the hands of another for selfish reasons.

 

[syrenn]

I wouldn't want someone to make the decision for me to die. I would like to have pain medication if I'm unable to keep my mind steady in meditation.

Medicine interferes and tries to keep patients alive when they're dying. Some patients choose to have every treatment and every intervention--feeding tubes, IV's, O2, intubation.

Not everyone wants all that but some of us want to die naturally.

I think some people need to educate themselves about what is and isn't palliative care.

Dying is like labor. Some women want a completely natural experience, no epiderals or anything.

Agreed.

and some want that natural birth....and the doctor stops it and gives a c section
some want that natural birth ..up to the point and until the pain is to much..and then they scream for pain meds.

And some know from the start.... they want the pain meds.

I wouldn't want you anywhere near my loved ones.

That is not what my loved ones think.

And there in lays the issue.... opinion and personal choice.

 

[syrenn]

No, you are saying kill them. I'm not. I'm saying administer pain meds and let the being die naturally.

They are completely different.

Semantics. The end result is the same.

One is murder and one is not. One is unnatural and one is not. Clearly you favor murder.

Both die, one of natural causes and one at the hands of another for selfish reasons.

So you say. I disagree.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Agreed.

and some want that natural birth....and the doctor stops it and gives a c section
some want that natural birth ..up to the point and until the pain is to much..and then they scream for pain meds.

And some know from the start.... they want the pain meds.

I wouldn't want you anywhere near my loved ones.

That is not what my loved ones think.

And there in lays the issue.... opinion and personal choice.

Again, I would not want you anywhere near me or my loved ones at a time like this.

 

[Sky Dancer]

But you can't change the law to make it legal to commit murder based upon the belief that everybody will have good intent and won't abuse it. That's just not the way the world works, and it's certainly not the way murder works.

syrenn is ok committing murder.

And you sky are ok with allowing pain and suffering.

I am ok with natural dying, and palliative care, which includes pain management. I have no problem with caring for someone who looks ugly and smells bad.

My convenience is not the issue. My wish to avoid the discomfort of having to see someone die is not the issue.

The loved one is.

My dog looked like a 15 old dog who was dying. I loved him anyway.

 

[syrenn]

syrenn is ok committing murder.

And you sky are ok with allowing pain and suffering.

I am ok with natural dying, and palliative care, which includes pain management. I have no problem with caring for someone who looks ugly and smells bad.

My convenience is not the issue. My wish to avoid the discomfort of having to see someone die is not the issue.

The loved one is.

And what makes you think that i am not alright with the care of the ugly and smelly people... Where do i say anything about convenience or inconvenience....

This issue is about the dying and the ones in pain.

you do have a way of confusing issues sky.

 

[Sky Dancer]

You Can Grow Less Beautiful

by Christine Longaker (in Facing Death and Finding Courage)

Your hair is falling out, and
you are not so beautiful.
Your eyes have dark shadows,
your body is bloated: arms covered with
bruises and needlemarks;
legs swollen and useless.
Your body and spirit
are weakened with toxic chemicals
urine smells like antibiotics,
even the sweat
that bathes your whole body
in the early hours of morning
reeks of dicloxacillin and methotrexate.

You are nauseous all the time--
I am afraid to move on the bed
for fear of waking you
to moan
and lean over the edge
vomiting into the bag.
I curl up fetally
withdraw into my dreams
with a frightened back to you--
I'm scared
and I'm hiding
but I love you so much;
this truth doesn't change.

Years ago,
when I met you, as we were falling in love,
your beauty attracted me:
long, golden-brown hair
clear and peaceful green eyes
high cheekcones and long smooth muscles
but you know
I fell in love with your soul
the real essence of you
and this cannot grow less beautiful.

Sometimes these days
even your soul is cloudy
but I still recognize you.

We may be frightened
and hiding our sorrow
it may take a little longer
to acknowledge the truth,
yet I would not want to be anywhere else:

I am here with you
you can grow less beautiful to the world
you are safe--
I will always love you.

 

[syrenn]

Poor sky. No you don't get it at all do you.