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Well, it does seem convenient to divide Zionism into...Modern Zionism is not a "new movement" it is based on the original movement, which is the story of Exodus.
Never said it was; more like it was Jesus (and his followers) who popularized the concept and it was their variation on the theme that got traction in The West."The 'turn the cheek' notion was not invented by Jesus..."
That may very well have been the old Talmudic approach (I wouldn't know) but the recorded (and edited?) teachings of Jesus are traditionally perceived as the basis for the Quaker Model."...it did not actually refer to the Quaker form of pacifism-----it referred to how jews should react ---most especially to EACH OTHER ---- and only to a lesser extent to their oppressors. It did not include a 'DO NOT FIGHT NO MATTER WHAT' approach..."
The teachings and beliefs of Jesus and his followers were, indeed, based upon Jewish tradition and beliefs and law and philosophy, but, even though based upon such things,
those teachings and beliefs were sufficiently different so as to trigger a Schism, early on.
That Schism (differences in beliefs and philosophy and spirituality) between Jew and
Christian exists to this very day; the two positions are Irreconcilable but Tolerant Co-Existence is a good outcome to continue working towards.
Even though Jesus (and his followers) were originally ministering to the Jews of the region, they (especially his disciples, after his death) were certainly targeting Jews, but they were also certainly targeting a much broader Gentile audience, and jettisoning much of the old writings and teachings and law and philosophy and refocusing on a new core.
Jesus and his peeps might very well have been using Old Material, but they appear to
have put their own spin on it, and pitched it in new ways, and to new audiences.
While others believe that Jesus was the ultimate proto-Quaker."...I did not believe that Jesus was a quaker type pacifist ----his incursion into the Temple courtyard---- was a VIOLENT ACT OF PROTEST against the roman
shills----the sadducees andagainst Rome..."
There is a difference between overturning market-tables and chasing merchants and cattle out of a courtyard, in reaction to blasphemy against a deity, versus raising a sword
against an enemy; although I will grant you that this example of the use of physical force is inconsistent with 99.99% of what is taught and perceived about Jesus.
"...The pacifism of Jesus has been over interpreted to the point of absurdity."
Or, looked at from another angle, the pacifism of Jesus is an Ideal to which Believers are asked to aspire and conform; as an aid to the underlying current of peace and love which Jesus and his disciples tried to live and preach.
Doesn't mean that it's always possible - doesn't mean that Believers are always (or even usually) going to match that ideal. It just means that that's the Ideal, and that anything short of that represents a failure (or sin?) on the part of those who fail.
It is that very Pacifism which made it so wildly popular as it spread like wildfire throughout an Empire filled with oppressed Slaves and filled with Freemen of goodwill who wanted something better in this life (and the next) than what their pagan beliefs could offer them.
If the Christian version of Christ's pacifism is an absurdity, then, it is an absurdity that helped to bring down a savage Empire from within, and which survived the trials and
tribulations of Europe and The West over the past 2000 years, and an absurdity which survives to this day - useful as an Ideal to which persons of goodwill can seek to abide by, either under any circumstances, or to whatever extent that may be practicable for them...
An 'absurdity' that does far more good than harm, in the broader scheme of things, and which helps Western Civilization to re-center itself, once it's gone off too far on a tangent to the Left or the Right...
True, dat...Of course all of this is speculation and no way to prove either way (short of an earth shaking archeological find) as we are talking about events that occurred two thousand years ago, and events that occurred thereafter.
Religion requires blind faith. Ask a Buddhist if he thinks repeating the words "nam yo ho rengeh kyo" will bring magical healing and oneness with the universe, and they will tell you yes. But to you and me it's just words that rhyme well. Did Moses part the seas or get the Ten Commandments after talking directly to God? Did God command Abraham to sacrifice Issac and in the last minute provide a goat instead? Was Jesus son of God, who came back to life, and born of virgin mother? These are all things that require faith. There is certainly no scientific explanation for it.True, dat...Of course all of this is speculation and no way to prove either way (short of an earth shaking archeological find) as we are talking about events that occurred two thousand years ago, and events that occurred thereafter.
So, have we figured out yet, whether Jesus was a Zionist, or whether he most likely would have been, had he lived in the Modern Age?
(the Sherriah Muslim Tourettes Syndrome Freak Show notwithstanding)
So, have we figured out yet, whether Jesus was a Zionist, or whether he most likely would have been, had he lived in the Modern Age?
(the Sherriah Muslim Tourettes Syndrome Freak Show notwithstanding)
WORDS are both powerful tools and powerful stumbling blocks.
remember the lessons of grammar school-----a word can both
DENOTE and CONNOTE. ---a single word can LIGHT
UP THE BRAIN-------as it is studied under special scanning techniques--
if that word has a VERY BIG IMPACT ON THE AFFECT of the
person under study. The word ZION is a biggie. It is a hebrew
word------which is the name of a specific mountain near jerusalem---
and symbolic of the homeland of jews------that place to which
Abraham migrated in his rejection of the culture of Babylon. For
jews it MEANS the rejection of the land of babel-----the land of
barbarity and depravity---the land of NIMROD. ------to a land and
society and culture of truth and justice----in language always
defined as the HIGHEST POINT ON EARTH -----a symbolic
rejection of the TOWER OF BABEL (rememeber that one
sherri? very important in biblical symbolism)
For islamo nazis the word ZION----is an abomination. Anyone
schooled in nazi propaganda (the stuff I read circa 1960---which
is the same stuff that forms the CORE curriculum in muslim
grammar schools thruout the world) feels HATRED when
he sees the word ZION. Everything negative is called "ZIONIST"---
in the islamo nazi literature. ----thus for jews----the conotation is
postive and for islamo nazis----entirely negative.
ZIOn appears many times in the Bible. Both the old & new testaments. Zionism was already well established by the time of Jesus.
So, have we figured out yet, whether Jesus was a Zionist, or whether he most likely would have been, had he lived in the Modern Age?
(the Sherriah Muslim Tourettes Syndrome Freak Show notwithstanding)
WORDS are both powerful tools and powerful stumbling blocks.
remember the lessons of grammar school-----a word can both
DENOTE and CONNOTE. ---a single word can LIGHT
UP THE BRAIN-------as it is studied under special scanning techniques--
if that word has a VERY BIG IMPACT ON THE AFFECT of the
person under study. The word ZION is a biggie. It is a hebrew
word------which is the name of a specific mountain near jerusalem---
and symbolic of the homeland of jews------that place to which
Abraham migrated in his rejection of the culture of Babylon. For
jews it MEANS the rejection of the land of babel-----the land of
barbarity and depravity---the land of NIMROD. ------to a land and
society and culture of truth and justice----in language always
defined as the HIGHEST POINT ON EARTH -----a symbolic
rejection of the TOWER OF BABEL (rememeber that one
sherri? very important in biblical symbolism)
For islamo nazis the word ZION----is an abomination. Anyone
schooled in nazi propaganda (the stuff I read circa 1960---which
is the same stuff that forms the CORE curriculum in muslim
grammar schools thruout the world) feels HATRED when
he sees the word ZION. Everything negative is called "ZIONIST"---
in the islamo nazi literature. ----thus for jews----the conotation is
postive and for islamo nazis----entirely negative.
ZIOn appears many times in the Bible. Both the old & new testaments. Zionism was already well established by the time of Jesus.
That is true MJB------but sherri is correct in noting that
the english language was not well established by the
time of Jesus-----The word "ZIONISM" <<< does not
appear in the ancient texts -----nor does the word
BALOOON-------or-...... BASEBALL MITT
The allusions and customary usages of language which
SIGNIFY what is today in english called "zionism"----
do appear quite a bit in both the "old" and "new" testaments.
However ----inorder to understand and make note of them---
one has to have a PREPARED MIND. For sherri----reading
the bible is something like an eight year old reading a college
text of Organic chemistry -------its mind is not prepared to
understand that which it reads
If the ancient Greek writings of the Bible use the suffix -ismos, then Zionism was mentioned.ZIOn appears many times in the Bible. Both the old & new testaments. Zionism was already well established by the time of Jesus.
That is true MJB------but sherri is correct in noting that
the english language was not well established by the
time of Jesus-----The word "ZIONISM" <<< does not
appear in the ancient texts -----nor does the word
BALOOON-------or-...... BASEBALL MITT
The allusions and customary usages of language which
SIGNIFY what is today in english called "zionism"----
do appear quite a bit in both the "old" and "new" testaments.
However ----inorder to understand and make note of them---
one has to have a PREPARED MIND. For sherri----reading
the bible is something like an eight year old reading a college
text of Organic chemistry -------its mind is not prepared to
understand that which it reads
ZIOn appears many times in the Bible. Both the old & new testaments. Zionism was already well established by the time of Jesus.
That is true MJB------but sherri is correct in noting that
the english language was not well established by the
time of Jesus-----The word "ZIONISM" <<< does not
appear in the ancient texts -----nor does the word
BALOOON-------or-...... BASEBALL MITT
The allusions and customary usages of language which
SIGNIFY what is today in english called "zionism"----
do appear quite a bit in both the "old" and "new" testaments.
However ----inorder to understand and make note of them---
one has to have a PREPARED MIND. For sherri----reading
the bible is something like an eight year old reading a college
text of Organic chemistry -------its mind is not prepared to
understand that which it reads
If the ancient Greek writings of the Bible use the suffix -ismos, then Zionism was mentioned.
oh "ismos" ----is something like "THE CONCEPT OF"?? in hebrew
there is a suffix something like "UT" sorta which denotes
----i think----something like a "concept of..." But I have never
seen it associated with the word ZION I am no hebrew
linguist--------there must be a way of saying "ZIONIST" in hebrew--
but I do not know what it is----------it is kinda an idea that
GOES WITHOUT SAYING ------like "the sky is blue" The customary
usages which do INDICATE "zionism" do appear in the translations
----ie the KJV------specifically whenever jesus travels to jerusalem he
is described as "GOING UP" ----leaving is "going down from" ----it is
EMBEDDED in the language itself ----the usage denotes ZIONISM
You are talking 'reality' as you perceive it. I was doing the same. We're simply gonna have to agree to disagree over this one."...Lots of flaws in your arguement Kondor-----the basic flaw being REALITY..."
Well, it does seem convenient to divide Zionism into...Modern Zionism is not a "new movement" it is based on the original movement, which is the story of Exodus.
1. Original Recipe Zionism - at the time of Exodus, focused upon establishing a new Homeland, on some of the lands where their nomadic ancestors had begun to settle some generations prior to their enslavement.
2. Extra Crispy Zionism - the modern Movement - about RE-establishing a Homeland in that same region.
ZIOn appears many times in the Bible. Both the old & new testaments. Zionism was already well established by the time of Jesus.
So, have we figured out yet, whether Jesus was a Zionist, or whether he most likely would have been, had he lived in the Modern Age?
(the Sherriah Muslim Tourettes Syndrome Freak Show notwithstanding)
WORDS are both powerful tools and powerful stumbling blocks.
remember the lessons of grammar school-----a word can both
DENOTE and CONNOTE. ---a single word can LIGHT
UP THE BRAIN-------as it is studied under special scanning techniques--
if that word has a VERY BIG IMPACT ON THE AFFECT of the
person under study. The word ZION is a biggie. It is a hebrew
word------which is the name of a specific mountain near jerusalem---
and symbolic of the homeland of jews------that place to which
Abraham migrated in his rejection of the culture of Babylon. For
jews it MEANS the rejection of the land of babel-----the land of
barbarity and depravity---the land of NIMROD. ------to a land and
society and culture of truth and justice----in language always
defined as the HIGHEST POINT ON EARTH -----a symbolic
rejection of the TOWER OF BABEL (rememeber that one
sherri? very important in biblical symbolism)
For islamo nazis the word ZION----is an abomination. Anyone
schooled in nazi propaganda (the stuff I read circa 1960---which
is the same stuff that forms the CORE curriculum in muslim
grammar schools thruout the world) feels HATRED when
he sees the word ZION. Everything negative is called "ZIONIST"---
in the islamo nazi literature. ----thus for jews----the conotation is
postive and for islamo nazis----entirely negative.
It is all Idolatry, from the standpoint of Jesus teachings, no matter what seemingly clever classifications you come up with.
Jesus did not teach Zionism.
Well, it does seem convenient to divide Zionism into...Modern Zionism is not a "new movement" it is based on the original movement, which is the story of Exodus.
1. Original Recipe Zionism - at the time of Exodus, focused upon establishing a new Homeland, on some of the lands where their nomadic ancestors had begun to settle some generations prior to their enslavement.
2. Extra Crispy Zionism - the modern Movement - about RE-establishing a Homeland in that same region.
Christianity is ranked the largest religion in the world today. According to the*Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, in 2010 there were 2.18 billion Christians around the world, nearly a third of the global population.*
Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life (2010)
Christianity Today - General Statistics and Facts of Christianity Today
All the statistics on that website about Christianity and Christian denominations and not a single word about Zionism.
It is all Idolatry, from the standpoint of Jesus teachings, no matter what seemingly clever classifications you come up with.
Jesus did not teach Zionism.
Well, it does seem convenient to divide Zionism into...Modern Zionism is not a "new movement" it is based on the original movement, which is the story of Exodus.
1. Original Recipe Zionism - at the time of Exodus, focused upon establishing a new Homeland, on some of the lands where their nomadic ancestors had begun to settle some generations prior to their enslavement.
2. Extra Crispy Zionism - the modern Movement - about RE-establishing a Homeland in that same region.
Christianity is ranked the largest religion in the world today. According to the*Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, in 2010 there were 2.18 billion Christians around the world, nearly a third of the global population.*
Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life (2010)
Christianity Today - General Statistics and Facts of Christianity Today
All the statistics on that website about Christianity and Christian denominations and not a single word about Zionism.
