For Those Who Don't Understand What Occupy is REALLY About (Obviously LOTS of you)

[OohPooPahDoo]

I guess a lot of people here just believe what the MSM and Right Wing E-media
tell them. This would be the only explanation for some of the posts I've seen.
So I thought I'd help! Here is a C&P from a great OWS site. It will give you
guys a better idea of why you should support us! Here ya go:

"1. We don't want to End Capitalism, We Want to End Corporatacracy.

First, let's make it clear, This is a political movement, not an economic
revolt. We want to end the control of our government by Multi-National
Corporations. This is Issue Number One for everyone I've spoken to in Occupy
Wall Street.

Not one Occupier I know of, wants to turn us into the former Soviet Union (although just like the TP, every movement has it's fringe and the MSM loves to find them). We
don't want to end the economic system which allows people to buy the goods of
their choice. But we do want to end a corrupt political system which allows
Multi-National Corporations to buy the politicians of their choice. So the
single most important theme is Taking control of our government away from
Corporations and putting it back into the hands of We the People.

2. We won't tolerate a government that rewards corporate incompetence, greed and
fraud. No More Bank Bailouts.

The banks bought our government and then, after they lined their pockets with
the wealth of our nation, they blackmailed the government into giving them even
MORE money "In order to keep the economy from collapsing". Right. Then, instead
of making or refinancing home loans, Bank of America, Chase, Wells Fargo and
others spent our money on business mergers & acquisitions to benefit the 1%. Oh,
and of course, they paid themselves million dollar bonuses with our money.

We want to set a deadline for payback of existing bailouts. Any company that has
not fully repaid all monies by the deadline, should be broken up so that they
are no longer "too big to fail".

3. We want the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act repealed immediately.
For those of you unfamiliar with it: After the Great Depression, congress passed
the Glass-Steagal act to make sure that banks would never take stupid risks or
use corrupt practices to send the country into another Depression. Then 60 years
later, the banks and companies that bought and paid for Republican Senators Bill
Gramm, Jim Leach and Tom Bliley told them that Glass-Steagal was interfering
with their ability to swindle the American Public. Their masters told these
senators to pass a bill that would NOT ONLY allow them to gamble foolishly again
with American Tax-Payer money - they wanted complete control of our Financial
System by being able OWN both stock brokerages and Insurance Companies too.
Then, once their cohorts completed the creation of what's called a "FIRE
Economy" (an economy based on Finance, Insurance & Real Estate) in America, they
would control everything.

Of course the Senators bowed to their masters and Gramm-Leach-Bliley was passed
with a super-majority that was veto-proof. If it had not been passed, NOT ONE
BANK would have needed bailout money because they would have been prohibited
from investing in the Commercial Mortgage Backed Securities Market.

Some people say we should let "The Market" regulate itself. Are the Banksters
worthy of the trust that was given to them under this law? Here's an example:
Citibank is on trial right now.
While they were selling over $500 MILLION dollars worth of those
toxic mortgage securities to the 99% as a good investment, they were betting the
securities would fail by "Short-Selling" at the same time. In other words, while
they sold your parents these securities for their retirement, they made a bet
the securities would fail - and earned over $140M dollars by doing so. Citibank
is currently offering to pay back about half the money they defrauded out of
regular people as long as no one from the bank goes to jail or even loses their
job. Guess what? The government is going for it. Why? Because the 1% doesn't
have to pay for their crimes. We do. In this case, WE'RE paying their $285M fee
with the bailout money they were given. And people wonder why we're mad."

That's just a small part of the REAL message of OWS. it's a little bit different
than what the SpinDoctors of the MSM and Right Wing media talk about or allow
you to see, isn't it?

The Whole World is watching and listening to our message. Foreign stations give more accurate coverage than FOX - who still spews BS about wanting Socialism and anarchy.

Here is an example of the more accurate foreign coverage of our message:

Occupy Wall Street Exposes Enormous Corruption Between Government and Corporations - YouTube

I don't love the banks by any means but there's nothing nefarious about betting on a security and also betting against it. Investors do it all the time. Its called HEDGING. A similar situation might be someone with a large stock portfolio who also buys a few put options with low strikes to cover him in the case of a market failure.


Its a bit like calling someone a hypcrite for buying life insurance. They want to keep living but at the same time are betting they won't.

 

[dnsmith35]

I guess a lot of people here just believe what the MSM and Right Wing E-media
tell them. This would be the only explanation for some of the posts I've seen.
So I thought I'd help! Here is a C&P from a great OWS site. It will give you
guys a better idea of why you should support us! Here ya go:

"1. We don't want to End Capitalism, We Want to End Corporatacracy.

First, let's make it clear, This is a political movement, not an economic
revolt. We want to end the control of our government by Multi-National
Corporations. This is Issue Number One for everyone I've spoken to in Occupy
Wall Street.

Not one Occupier I know of, wants to turn us into the former Soviet Union (although just like the TP, every movement has it's fringe and the MSM loves to find them). We
don't want to end the economic system which allows people to buy the goods of
their choice. But we do want to end a corrupt political system which allows
Multi-National Corporations to buy the politicians of their choice. So the
single most important theme is Taking control of our government away from
Corporations and putting it back into the hands of We the People.

2. We won't tolerate a government that rewards corporate incompetence, greed and
fraud. No More Bank Bailouts.

The banks bought our government and then, after they lined their pockets with
the wealth of our nation, they blackmailed the government into giving them even
MORE money "In order to keep the economy from collapsing". Right. Then, instead
of making or refinancing home loans, Bank of America, Chase, Wells Fargo and
others spent our money on business mergers & acquisitions to benefit the 1%. Oh,
and of course, they paid themselves million dollar bonuses with our money.

We want to set a deadline for payback of existing bailouts. Any company that has
not fully repaid all monies by the deadline, should be broken up so that they
are no longer "too big to fail".

3. We want the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act repealed immediately.
For those of you unfamiliar with it: After the Great Depression, congress passed
the Glass-Steagal act to make sure that banks would never take stupid risks or
use corrupt practices to send the country into another Depression. Then 60 years
later, the banks and companies that bought and paid for Republican Senators Bill
Gramm, Jim Leach and Tom Bliley told them that Glass-Steagal was interfering
with their ability to swindle the American Public. Their masters told these
senators to pass a bill that would NOT ONLY allow them to gamble foolishly again
with American Tax-Payer money - they wanted complete control of our Financial
System by being able OWN both stock brokerages and Insurance Companies too.
Then, once their cohorts completed the creation of what's called a "FIRE
Economy" (an economy based on Finance, Insurance & Real Estate) in America, they
would control everything.

Of course the Senators bowed to their masters and Gramm-Leach-Bliley was passed
with a super-majority that was veto-proof. If it had not been passed, NOT ONE
BANK would have needed bailout money because they would have been prohibited
from investing in the Commercial Mortgage Backed Securities Market.

Some people say we should let "The Market" regulate itself. Are the Banksters
worthy of the trust that was given to them under this law? Here's an example:
Citibank is on trial right now.
While they were selling over $500 MILLION dollars worth of those
toxic mortgage securities to the 99% as a good investment, they were betting the
securities would fail by "Short-Selling" at the same time. In other words, while
they sold your parents these securities for their retirement, they made a bet
the securities would fail - and earned over $140M dollars by doing so. Citibank
is currently offering to pay back about half the money they defrauded out of
regular people as long as no one from the bank goes to jail or even loses their
job. Guess what? The government is going for it. Why? Because the 1% doesn't
have to pay for their crimes. We do. In this case, WE'RE paying their $285M fee
with the bailout money they were given. And people wonder why we're mad."

That's just a small part of the REAL message of OWS. it's a little bit different
than what the SpinDoctors of the MSM and Right Wing media talk about or allow
you to see, isn't it?

The Whole World is watching and listening to our message. Foreign stations give more accurate coverage than FOX - who still spews BS about wanting Socialism and anarchy.

Here is an example of the more accurate foreign coverage of our message:

Occupy Wall Street Exposes Enormous Corruption Between Government and Corporations - YouTube

I don't love the banks by any means but there's nothing nefarious about betting on a security and also betting against it. Investors do it all the time. Its called HEDGING. A similar situation might be someone with a large stock portfolio who also buys a few put options with low strikes to cover him in the case of a market failure.


Its a bit like calling someone a hypcrite for buying life insurance. They want to keep living but at the same time are betting they won't.

Independent logic has not the slightest idea about what big business does, should do, or should not do. He is a left wing nutter who spends his days cutting and pasting left wing talking points to post here. He either does not think or alas, likely can't think. We call him one of the sheeple, a simple stooge for the left who brainlessly and frequently posts what he is told.

 

[paulitician]

We have a President who is a GE Employee. His "Jobs Czar" is GE CEO Jeffrey Immelt for God's sake. How many of these OWS protesters even know this? I'm guessing very few if any. They should be protesting & occupying Washington because that's where all the problems are. Just screeching about hating Wall Street isn't enough.

 

[dnsmith35]

What an appropriate picture. A just reward for the riff raff disobeying police orders to move.

 

[Full-Auto]

What an appropriate picture. A just reward for the riff raff disobeying police orders to move.

They sure showed those cops. Some people had to be sprayed twice.

 

[paulitician]

What an appropriate picture. A just reward for the riff raff disobeying police orders to move.

Nah,it just reminds people of Abu Ghraib and GITMO. Shame on these Police Officers. Next time they should stay home and play Call of Duty instead. They're a menace to Society.

 

[Full-Auto]

What an appropriate picture. A just reward for the riff raff disobeying police orders to move.

Nah,it just reminds people of Abu Ghraib and GITMO. Shame on these Police Officers. Next time they should stay home and play Call of Duty instead. They're a menace to Society.

They were blocking the sidewalk and were asked to move.

They are lucky to have gotten off that lightly.

 

[paulitician]

What an appropriate picture. A just reward for the riff raff disobeying police orders to move.

Nah,it just reminds people of Abu Ghraib and GITMO. Shame on these Police Officers. Next time they should stay home and play Call of Duty instead. They're a menace to Society.

They were blocking the sidewalk and were asked to move.

They are lucky to have gotten off that lightly.

Yes,bow & fear the Gestapo Masters. Such Authoritarian-Worship is running rampant in this country. I really do believe most of these worshippers would tase or pepper spray their own Mothers if the Police orderd them to. What has happened to our country? We are now everything our Founding Fathers fought against.

 

[dnsmith35]

What an appropriate picture. A just reward for the riff raff disobeying police orders to move.

Nah,it just reminds people of Abu Ghraib and GITMO. Shame on these Police Officers. Next time they should stay home and play Call of Duty instead. They're a menace to Society.

I agree, the protesters are a menace to society,

 

[paulitician]

What an appropriate picture. A just reward for the riff raff disobeying police orders to move.

Nah,it just reminds people of Abu Ghraib and GITMO. Shame on these Police Officers. Next time they should stay home and play Call of Duty instead. They're a menace to Society.

I agree, the protesters are a menace to society,

You so sure about that? A couple of unarmed peaceful kids against an army of fully-armed paramilitary Police Officers? Yea these kids were a real threat to these jack-booters. I know,the poor jack-booters felt terribly frightened around all those scary completely unarmed kids. They feared for their lives damn it. Poor babies. My God,how can so many Americans buy into such Bullshit? Scary stuff.

 

[IndependntLogic]

Now? None. I have been retired for 24 years. Then? I was a real estate broker; the basis for my understanding of the real estate bubble, collapse, mortgage interest issues, foreclosure options etc, etc.Bullshit. That the OWS accidently backed into some issues I supported when most of the OWS's parents were in diapers.

I don't believe there is a firm set of issues supported by the general group associated by OWS. I don't believe the majority of the OWS protesters have even the slightest idea of what to support, how to achieve those goals, and what will happen if the changes they claim to want come about.

How many of us do you know? Interact or share ideas with on a regular basis? You have the same thoughts I had after viewing Tea Party members carrying assualt rifles to a political rally. I am not as trusting of the American MSM as you are. Here is some foreign coverage -

Occupy Wall Street Exposes Enormous Corruption Between Government and Corporations - YouTube

Notice how there is nothing about ending capitalism? How it's about government corruption by the almighty dollar? That's what most of the Occupiers I know are concerned with.

So far your expressed ideas of how to achieve economic security for the masses will do exactly the opposite of what you claim to want. You haven't got even a small clue what would happen if corporate taxes were increased, if any additional costs are placed on creating the products or services provided by our corporations or business.

I have not claimed anywhere that I want to see the corporate tax rate increased. But it would be nice if an American company, producing a product in America, which is sold only to Americans - was taxed on those sales. Because of the tax loopholes that continue to be allowed, our country loses over $120B a year in revenues.

Your claim to want equality of wage smacks of the old communist axiom, "from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs." It has been proved over and over that that process eliminates incentive and reduces over all wealth to be shared and simply making more people poor while enriching the elite leaders who oppress the rest. Instead of having a 1% rich and 99% poor, you would have a .01% rich and 99.09% poor.

Again, you attribute something to me which I have not said.

It is obvious you did not think out the unintended consequences of your assertions, and you are a faceless sheeple following following left wing nutter talking points. Before you can debate "talking points" you need to learn what they mean and what they will accomplish.

It is obvious you do not think about the fact I haven't said much of which you claim. Before you talk debating points, you might want to learn that debating means countering points which the other person has actually expressed. Jus' sayin'.
And again, I don't dispute that there ARE people in OWS who make these points, I am simply saying that there are a lot more of us thav you are aware of, who want things that you might find much more reasonable or even agree with.

As to what I believe:

I have some opinions which are left of center, and I know some of the more conservative patrons will not agree with those opinions.

For example, I believe we need a progressive tax system. Why? Because those who make more money get more advantage of the infrastructure for which our taxes are spent allowing them to make more money.

On the flip side, I believe those who make more money are the ones responsible for creating the most jobs.

I believe in universal health care. Why? I believe that by taking care of the indigent who can't afford to buy health care, or those whose job don't provide insurance they can afford we will actually reduce health care over the long haul. There are also altruistic reasons in that I believe all human beings deserve medical care and that all innocent human beings every where are deserving as much as any other human being provided they work for it. All innocent humans are equal in the eyes of God.

For that reason I don't shiver in my boots every time someone cries about outsourcing as people in the 3rd world deserve a decent life as much as we in the industrialized west. They don't deserve it be given to them any more than people in the US, but they deserve the right to earn it. Further, eventually it makes good economic sense that eventually the 3rd world will have their economic revolution and their labor force will demand decent wages, a safe work place, and humane hours and conditions.

I believe in a good public education system; one which teaches core subjects to all students; one which removes disruptive students from mainline classes and installs them in alternative schools where they cannot be disruptive; schools where a student is not looked down upon or graded down because their parents either can't or won't help them with homework or encourage their education. Homework is a pet peeve of mine and is seriously discriminatory to students who don't have the good fortune to have parents who can and will help them.

Flip side, I believe that every student who wishes to attend a private school which has higher standards than the public school system in their district should be given vouchers equal to the average cost of education per student in the public schools.

I believe in welfare which helps those who are truly needy; provided that those who are able are expected, rather demanded, to perform public service in return for that assistance. Recognizing that some people are poor through no fault of their own I believe it is imperative we give them assistance. I don't believe in the blame game, whereas had that person when young applied themselves more they could get better jobs, because I am aware that all kids don't all have the same motivation and the same encouragement as others.

On the flip side, I believe that slow kids should be taught in a separate classroom so that teachers can give them extra help and such that they do not detract from the education of the more bright students.

I believe that we should not waste money on defense. That said, I do believe we should have a strong military, with a serious R&D program to keep technology the very best it can be with a manpower capable of fighting any war into which we are drawn or choose to be engaged. I do not believe in adventurism, but if we destroy the infrastructure of a country we owe them the rebuilding, unless that country overtly attacked us first. Better we create friendly ex-enemies than culture resentment and future bad will.

There are other issues where my opinions are liberal and some others which are conservative. I don't believe there is only one way to run the country. Another thing, simply because a past policy did not meet with the success for which we hoped, does not mean that with different conditions that policy won't work now. Example: repatriating overseas capital did little in 2004 other than help rebuild physical plant and modernized the companies. Not that that was not a good outcome, but it didn't create a lot of jobs. That does not mean that in the current situation repatriation of capital would not create jobs now; it likely would. Economic cycles and circumstances may well need some supply side economics as the demand side policies are not working well now. The attempt to spur demand by throwing huge sums of money did not do much in the way of job creations this time around, yet some would have us double down on a policy which did not help the recovery from recession as fast as past recessions have recovered.

There is a great deal above with which I agree and some with which I don't. I'm actually more Conservative than you in a couple of areas. But you seem reasonable with one exception: When has it been accurate to generalize ALL of any large group as having the exact same ideals, opinions etc...
There were a LOT of whackjobs in the original OWS movement. Still are. But the Occupy movement grew beyond the tents long ago. Now on virtually every Occupy site, you'll see discussion about ending The Fed, Repealing Gramm-Leach-Blilely, Public Financing of Elections, Term Limits etc...
Why is it so difficult to believe there is a significant portion of our movement that owns homes (as was evidenced in the news article about Occupiers owning luxury homes in NY), works or own businesses, have families and reasonable beliefs and goals that could benefit our country?
Ah. The MSM. I would invite you to consider whether it is always a trustworthy source.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

I guess a lot of people here just believe what the MSM and Right Wing E-media
tell them. This would be the only explanation for some of the posts I've seen.
So I thought I'd help! Here is a C&P from a great OWS site. It will give you
guys a better idea of why you should support us! Here ya go:

"1. We don't want to End Capitalism, We Want to End Corporatacracy.

First, let's make it clear, This is a political movement, not an economic
revolt. We want to end the control of our government by Multi-National
Corporations. This is Issue Number One for everyone I've spoken to in Occupy
Wall Street.

Not one Occupier I know of, wants to turn us into the former Soviet Union (although just like the TP, every movement has it's fringe and the MSM loves to find them). We
don't want to end the economic system which allows people to buy the goods of
their choice. But we do want to end a corrupt political system which allows
Multi-National Corporations to buy the politicians of their choice. So the
single most important theme is Taking control of our government away from
Corporations and putting it back into the hands of We the People.

2. We won't tolerate a government that rewards corporate incompetence, greed and
fraud. No More Bank Bailouts.

The banks bought our government and then, after they lined their pockets with
the wealth of our nation, they blackmailed the government into giving them even
MORE money "In order to keep the economy from collapsing". Right. Then, instead
of making or refinancing home loans, Bank of America, Chase, Wells Fargo and
others spent our money on business mergers & acquisitions to benefit the 1%. Oh,
and of course, they paid themselves million dollar bonuses with our money.

We want to set a deadline for payback of existing bailouts. Any company that has
not fully repaid all monies by the deadline, should be broken up so that they
are no longer "too big to fail".

3. We want the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act repealed immediately.
For those of you unfamiliar with it: After the Great Depression, congress passed
the Glass-Steagal act to make sure that banks would never take stupid risks or
use corrupt practices to send the country into another Depression. Then 60 years
later, the banks and companies that bought and paid for Republican Senators Bill
Gramm, Jim Leach and Tom Bliley told them that Glass-Steagal was interfering
with their ability to swindle the American Public. Their masters told these
senators to pass a bill that would NOT ONLY allow them to gamble foolishly again
with American Tax-Payer money - they wanted complete control of our Financial
System by being able OWN both stock brokerages and Insurance Companies too.
Then, once their cohorts completed the creation of what's called a "FIRE
Economy" (an economy based on Finance, Insurance & Real Estate) in America, they
would control everything.

Of course the Senators bowed to their masters and Gramm-Leach-Bliley was passed
with a super-majority that was veto-proof. If it had not been passed, NOT ONE
BANK would have needed bailout money because they would have been prohibited
from investing in the Commercial Mortgage Backed Securities Market.

Some people say we should let "The Market" regulate itself. Are the Banksters
worthy of the trust that was given to them under this law? Here's an example:
Citibank is on trial right now.
While they were selling over $500 MILLION dollars worth of those
toxic mortgage securities to the 99% as a good investment, they were betting the
securities would fail by "Short-Selling" at the same time. In other words, while
they sold your parents these securities for their retirement, they made a bet
the securities would fail - and earned over $140M dollars by doing so. Citibank
is currently offering to pay back about half the money they defrauded out of
regular people as long as no one from the bank goes to jail or even loses their
job. Guess what? The government is going for it. Why? Because the 1% doesn't
have to pay for their crimes. We do. In this case, WE'RE paying their $285M fee
with the bailout money they were given. And people wonder why we're mad."

That's just a small part of the REAL message of OWS. it's a little bit different
than what the SpinDoctors of the MSM and Right Wing media talk about or allow
you to see, isn't it?

The Whole World is watching and listening to our message. Foreign stations give more accurate coverage than FOX - who still spews BS about wanting Socialism and anarchy.

Here is an example of the more accurate foreign coverage of our message:

Occupy Wall Street Exposes Enormous Corruption Between Government and Corporations - YouTube

I don't love the banks by any means but there's nothing nefarious about betting on a security and also betting against it. Investors do it all the time. Its called HEDGING. A similar situation might be someone with a large stock portfolio who also buys a few put options with low strikes to cover him in the case of a market failure.


Its a bit like calling someone a hypcrite for buying life insurance. They want to keep living but at the same time are betting they won't.

Independent logic has not the slightest idea about what big business does, should do, or should not do. He is a left wing nutter who spends his days cutting and pasting left wing talking points to post here. He either does not think or alas, likely can't think. We call him one of the sheeple, a simple stooge for the left who brainlessly and frequently posts what he is told.

I am a left wing nutter as well.

 

[dnsmith35]

Nah,it just reminds people of Abu Ghraib and GITMO. Shame on these Police Officers. Next time they should stay home and play Call of Duty instead. They're a menace to Society.

I agree, the protesters are a menace to society,

You so sure about that? A couple of unarmed peaceful kids against an army of fully-armed paramilitary Police Officers? Yea these kids were a real threat to these jack-booters. I know,the poor jack-booters felt terribly frightened around all those scary completely unarmed kids. They feared for their lives damn it. Poor babies. My God,how can so many Americans buy into such Bullshit? Scary stuff.

They were ordered to leave, they didn't. Spray them or whack them, what difference does it make.

 

[Big Fitz]

What an appropriate picture. A just reward for the riff raff disobeying police orders to move.

Forgetting to take the baby out with the bath water again, I see. I'd like to see that picture in context of the lawful orders to disperse, location and disruption to innocent bystanders looking to get on with their lives without these asshole babies throwing their tempertantrum.

Yes, that'd be nice please.

 

[Big Fitz]

I don't love the banks by any means but there's nothing nefarious about betting on a security and also betting against it. Investors do it all the time. Its called HEDGING. A similar situation might be someone with a large stock portfolio who also buys a few put options with low strikes to cover him in the case of a market failure.


Its a bit like calling someone a hypcrite for buying life insurance. They want to keep living but at the same time are betting they won't.

Independent logic has not the slightest idea about what big business does, should do, or should not do. He is a left wing nutter who spends his days cutting and pasting left wing talking points to post here. He either does not think or alas, likely can't think. We call him one of the sheeple, a simple stooge for the left who brainlessly and frequently posts what he is told.

I am a left wing nutter as well.

This just in from our "Noooooo... REALLY???" department.

 

[dnsmith35]

What an appropriate picture. A just reward for the riff raff disobeying police orders to move.

Forgetting to take the baby out with the bath water again, I see. I'd like to see that picture in context of the lawful orders to disperse, location and disruption to innocent bystanders looking to get on with their lives without these asshole babies throwing their tempertantrum.

Yes, that'd be nice please.

They had been given orders to disperse.

 

[Zander]

 

[Big Fitz]

What an appropriate picture. A just reward for the riff raff disobeying police orders to move.

Forgetting to take the baby out with the bath water again, I see. I'd like to see that picture in context of the lawful orders to disperse, location and disruption to innocent bystanders looking to get on with their lives without these asshole babies throwing their tempertantrum.

Yes, that'd be nice please.

They had been given orders to disperse.

If they're not smart enough to obey a lawful order and disperse, who's fault is it they got pepper sprayed?

 

[Uncensored2008]

If they're not smart enough to obey a lawful order and disperse, who's fault is it they got pepper sprayed?

I don't understand why they used pepper spray? What was the purpose? In the old days, they would have used a fire hose, which makes much more sense. The fire hose would have gotten them to move, washed the shit off the sidewalk AND off of the Shitters, in one action.

 

[Zoom-boing]

If they're not smart enough to obey a lawful order and disperse, who's fault is it they got pepper sprayed?

I don't understand why they used pepper spray? What was the purpose? In the old days, they would have used a fire hose, which makes much more sense. The fire hose would have gotten them to move, washed the shit off the sidewalk AND off of the Shitters, in one action.

It's cheap, was readily available and got the job done.