Gun Control Compromise

[JoeB131]

No, being a soldier now is a whole lot LESS technical now than it was then.
Soldiers now would not even be able to load a musket or keep their powder dry.
Basic training now is only 9 weeks, and back then it took a life time to be good at moving and fighting in the woods.

actually, basic training was only 8 weeks when I went through it in 1981. And it was about 8 weeks when My dad went through it in WWII.

Sure there are specific things modern soldiers need to know now, like communications protocols, but that should be universal already. Teach it to all high school students. We do not want or should ever have a paid mercenary military. That is totally against a democratic republic or what the founder insisted upon. It essentially is treason.

quite the contrary... the real problem is when we had a conscript army, with a lot of guys who didn't want to be there, or what we had in Vietnam where rich guys like Trump could buy their way out.

And NO, the government should NOT at all be dictating what individuals do, including cooking meth in their kitchen, if they want. Government does NOT have that authority, and there is no way government can ever get that kind of authority, to protect people from their own stupidity. That is a dictatorship, not a democratic republic.

No, it's a society with laws the majority agrees with. The basic rule of liberty is "your right to waive your arm ends at my face." Cooking meth in your kitchen endangers everyone in that community. Having machine guns endangers everyone in that community.

 

[JoeB131]

As for Waco and Branch Davidians, you have it totally wrong.
There was no illegal weapons sales, only experiments on if they could make ARs full auto.
Second is that no child molesting charges were brought, and there was no shoot out between member, because that is local, not ATF, and the sheriff would have handled all that.
And he also would have avoided any shoot out.
When he wanted to threaten Koresh about the children, he did it easily and safely when Koresh came to town.

Okay, first, it's illegal to make an AR-15 into a full automatic, and you really don't need to experiment to do that. (It's based on the fully automatic M-16).

The problem was, the Sheriff was coddling Koresh and his wacky followers... which is why the ATF had to get involved.

There was a shootout with BATF, but the news clips can clearly be deliberately seen to be shown out of order, and that there are 2 separate groups at an upstairs window, and it is the 2nd group that starts the shooting at the first group of BATF already inside, who then are forced to return fire and shoot the BATF outside on the roof. It is plain as day. You can see because of the bullet holes fired from inside, through the wall. Clearly not there when BATF originally enter, even though they show that clip as if it happened later.

Point is, the ATF came there with a valid warrant, and they shot at them. What I find amusing is the same people who think it's totally cool for the cops to shoot a black kid playing with a toy or a pocket knife think the government should have coddled a bunch of kiddy-diddling, gun toting religious nuts who shot four federal agents, which is exactly what they did.

You are also totally wrong about all the wars since WWII. Not a single one was authorized by Congress.

Um, yeah, they were.... the rest is just nonsense.

As for mental health, you are again totally wrong. No court ever ruled you can't lock up the mentally ill. They have always ruled you can and should. Law was never the issue, but money was. And it was Reagan who cut the money.

Well, you are still out and about... But you really need to look up the court precedences.

O'Connor v. Donaldson - Wikipedia

Addington v. Texas - Wikipedia

Pretty much after these two cases, along with public backlash against mental institutions, the rules changed and they released the mentally ill onto our streets. I recall it well, where the nice neighborhood i grew up in suddenly had a slew of homeless people showing up, just released from the mental hospital with no idea how to take care of themselves.

The 1980 act you mention was a response to that to try to get local communities to pick up the ball.

With the section on gun control being a dictatorship, and the rest of the world just having a benevolent dictatorship, you miss the point.
The comparison with the rest of the world is that the US has a dictatorship that is NOT benevolent. While the rest of the world's dictatorship are benevolent at least for now.

Again, guy, I don't want to live in a libertarian Anarchy. I like breathing clean air, I like drinking clean water, I like knowing the food I eat isn't going to poison me. I like to know that my drive to work tomorrow isn't going to be the Community Theater version of Mad Max.

You probably don't want to, either, really. You just don't like the fact that if put to a vote, most of the country would probably limit your ability to own a gun because, hey, you're nuts.

 

[Rustic]

As for Waco and Branch Davidians, you have it totally wrong.
There was no illegal weapons sales, only experiments on if they could make ARs full auto.
Second is that no child molesting charges were brought, and there was no shoot out between member, because that is local, not ATF, and the sheriff would have handled all that.
And he also would have avoided any shoot out.
When he wanted to threaten Koresh about the children, he did it easily and safely when Koresh came to town.

Okay, first, it's illegal to make an AR-15 into a full automatic, and you really don't need to experiment to do that. (It's based on the fully automatic M-16).

The problem was, the Sheriff was coddling Koresh and his wacky followers... which is why the ATF had to get involved.

There was a shootout with BATF, but the news clips can clearly be deliberately seen to be shown out of order, and that there are 2 separate groups at an upstairs window, and it is the 2nd group that starts the shooting at the first group of BATF already inside, who then are forced to return fire and shoot the BATF outside on the roof. It is plain as day. You can see because of the bullet holes fired from inside, through the wall. Clearly not there when BATF originally enter, even though they show that clip as if it happened later.

Point is, the ATF came there with a valid warrant, and they shot at them. What I find amusing is the same people who think it's totally cool for the cops to shoot a black kid playing with a toy or a pocket knife think the government should have coddled a bunch of kiddy-diddling, gun toting religious nuts who shot four federal agents, which is exactly what they did.

You are also totally wrong about all the wars since WWII. Not a single one was authorized by Congress.

Um, yeah, they were.... the rest is just nonsense.

As for mental health, you are again totally wrong. No court ever ruled you can't lock up the mentally ill. They have always ruled you can and should. Law was never the issue, but money was. And it was Reagan who cut the money.

Well, you are still out and about... But you really need to look up the court precedences.

O'Connor v. Donaldson - Wikipedia

Addington v. Texas - Wikipedia

Pretty much after these two cases, along with public backlash against mental institutions, the rules changed and they released the mentally ill onto our streets. I recall it well, where the nice neighborhood i grew up in suddenly had a slew of homeless people showing up, just released from the mental hospital with no idea how to take care of themselves.

The 1980 act you mention was a response to that to try to get local communities to pick up the ball.

With the section on gun control being a dictatorship, and the rest of the world just having a benevolent dictatorship, you miss the point.
The comparison with the rest of the world is that the US has a dictatorship that is NOT benevolent. While the rest of the world's dictatorship are benevolent at least for now.

Again, guy, I don't want to live in a libertarian Anarchy. I like breathing clean air, I like drinking clean water, I like knowing the food I eat isn't going to poison me. I like to know that my drive to work tomorrow isn't going to be the Community Theater version of Mad Max.

You probably don't want to, either, really. You just don't like the fact that if put to a vote, most of the country would probably limit your ability to own a gun because, hey, you're nuts.

Na, not really

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

But if that's what you want, don't bitch about it, don't threaten, just do it.

Be careful what you wish for.

It's not me that keeps bring that up. The gunnutters keep saying they will more or less, fight to the death. I say let them. Or they can do it the right way every 2 and 4 years.

There comes a time when democracy no longer works because the scales have tipped towards the dregs of society who take and never give. It has happened countless times throughout history. You leftists are toeing that line right now. I can't predict what incident will ignite the powder keg, but if the status quo remains I'm certain it WILL happen and it will NOT be pretty for your side.

Is it the Leftists fault that congress is completely broken right now? They can't even present a Veto Proof Bill right now because McConnel requires his Masters Permission to allow it on the Senate floor to be voted on. Is that the Leftists fault that McConnel isn't following protocol and tradition? No, it's all on McConnel. The system is broken. I want to see this mess laid on the one brand that still is in operation, the Supreme Court as quickly as possible. Get it ironed out. People are suffering pretty bad now. If you arent' aware of it, retails sales are down, Tourist based income is almost gone, government workers are filing for Unemployment and a lot more.

The system is supposed to take care of this. If a President will not approve of a bill, the Senate should still present it and give him the chance to Veto it. It comes back to Congress. Congress now has the option to change it to get the President to sign it or present it in a veto proof form. If the Senate Majority Leader refuses to allow it to be voted on the open senate floor, the whole congress comes to a complete stop. And that is where we are now. You can't blame the Leftists on breaking Congress. That is owned 100% by McConnel.

This thread is about gun control, not internal government bickering. And to be perfectly honest I don't give a flying rats ass about the "shutdown" of what I believe to be a bloated government anyways.

No, the thread is about rightwing ignorance, lies, and dishonesty.

Such as the lie that ‘the left’ is ‘hostile’ to the rights enshrined in the Second Amendment, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth.

Indeed, liberals acknowledge and defend Second Amendment case law – something most on the right are incapable or unwilling to do.

The thread is about the dishonest canard that there has been a “one-sided chipping away of 2nd Amendment rights with nothing offered in return” – an accusation that is as ridiculous as it is wrong.

And the thread is about the ignorance of conservatives with regard to Second Amendment jurisprudence – the right’s wrongheaded notion of the ‘insurrectionist theory’:

‘How crazy is the insurrectionist view that appears to be driving the opposition to expanded background checks, for fear of a national firearms registry, for fear of a totalitarian federal government? It's so crazy that even Justice Scalia, writing in Heller, acknowledged that modern circumstances had severed the substantive protections of the Second Amendment from their original militia purpose, and by modern circumstances, he meant the preposterousness of insurrectionism. He said that "our standing army is the pride of our Nation" and stated (earlier in the opinion) that "it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks."’

Dorf on Law: The Resurrection of Second Amendment Insurrectionism is "Ted Cruz Crazy"

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Such as the lie that ‘the left’ is ‘hostile’ to the rights enshrined in the Second Amendment, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth.

Indeed, liberals acknowledge and defend Second Amendment case law – something most on the right are incapable or unwilling to do.

You're not a liberal. I am. You're an authoritarian leftist.

We have a problem with how the Courts have "interpreted" the 2A.

But, let's talk about the case law.

Authoritarian leftists love the Miller holding.

Miller holds that the 2A protects the right of individuals (like Mliller who was not a member of thr National Guard and the 1939 was long after the fed reg defining organized v. unorganized militia) to own weapons that have a reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.

We can assume by the reasoning in Miller that a weapon commonly used by military personnel has a reasonable relation to such preservation or efficiency.

The standard U.S. military rifle is the select-fire M-4 (full-auto). Who could argue that such a weapon has no reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a militia when it is the standard rifle of our government soldiers?

So. why is my government infringing on my right to possess such a weapon?

Why are YOU advocating for FURTHER infringment?

 

[2aguy]

Such as the lie that ‘the left’ is ‘hostile’ to the rights enshrined in the Second Amendment, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth.

Indeed, liberals acknowledge and defend Second Amendment case law – something most on the right are incapable or unwilling to do.

You're not a liberal. I am. You're an authoritarian leftist.

We have a problem with how the Courts have "interpreted" the 2A.

But, let's talk about the case law.

Authoritarian leftists love the Miller holding.

Miller holds that the 2A protects the right of individuals (like Mliller who was not a member of thr National Guard and the 1939 was long after the fed reg defining organized v. unorganized militia) to own weapons that have a reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.

We can assume by the reasoning in Miller that a weapon commonly used by military personnel has a reasonable relation to such preservation or efficiency.

The standard U.S. military rifle is the select-fire M-4 (full-auto). Who could argue that such a weapon has no reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a militia when it is the standard rifle of our government soldiers?

So. why is my government infringing on my right to possess such a weapon?

Why are YOU advocating for FURTHER infringment?

clayton is a dishonest asshole......Oregon just introduced legislation that would ban any magazine or gun that holds more than 5 bullets......banning entire categories and models of rifle, pistol and shotgun, including revolvers....and he posts that the left isn't attacking the 2nd Amendment....as I have shown over and over the lower courts, left wing courts, completely ignoring the Supreme Court rulings....Legal Precedents......that keep them from banning various guns and magazines....

And clayton has the nerve to lie and say there is no attack on the 2nd amendment...

 

[2aguy]

Such as the lie that ‘the left’ is ‘hostile’ to the rights enshrined in the Second Amendment, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth.

Indeed, liberals acknowledge and defend Second Amendment case law – something most on the right are incapable or unwilling to do.

You're not a liberal. I am. You're an authoritarian leftist.

We have a problem with how the Courts have "interpreted" the 2A.

But, let's talk about the case law.

Authoritarian leftists love the Miller holding.

Miller holds that the 2A protects the right of individuals (like Mliller who was not a member of thr National Guard and the 1939 was long after the fed reg defining organized v. unorganized militia) to own weapons that have a reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.

We can assume by the reasoning in Miller that a weapon commonly used by military personnel has a reasonable relation to such preservation or efficiency.

The standard U.S. military rifle is the select-fire M-4 (full-auto). Who could argue that such a weapon has no reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a militia when it is the standard rifle of our government soldiers?

So. why is my government infringing on my right to possess such a weapon?

Why are YOU advocating for FURTHER infringment?

Then you have the Supreme court rulings in Heller, McDonald, Caetano, Murdock.....all of these as well and the lower courts that have majority left wing judges are ignoring them....completely ignoring them.......clayton is a dishonest hack...

 

[2aguy]

As for Waco and Branch Davidians, you have it totally wrong.
There was no illegal weapons sales, only experiments on if they could make ARs full auto.
Second is that no child molesting charges were brought, and there was no shoot out between member, because that is local, not ATF, and the sheriff would have handled all that.
And he also would have avoided any shoot out.
When he wanted to threaten Koresh about the children, he did it easily and safely when Koresh came to town.

Okay, first, it's illegal to make an AR-15 into a full automatic, and you really don't need to experiment to do that. (It's based on the fully automatic M-16).

The problem was, the Sheriff was coddling Koresh and his wacky followers... which is why the ATF had to get involved.

There was a shootout with BATF, but the news clips can clearly be deliberately seen to be shown out of order, and that there are 2 separate groups at an upstairs window, and it is the 2nd group that starts the shooting at the first group of BATF already inside, who then are forced to return fire and shoot the BATF outside on the roof. It is plain as day. You can see because of the bullet holes fired from inside, through the wall. Clearly not there when BATF originally enter, even though they show that clip as if it happened later.

Point is, the ATF came there with a valid warrant, and they shot at them. What I find amusing is the same people who think it's totally cool for the cops to shoot a black kid playing with a toy or a pocket knife think the government should have coddled a bunch of kiddy-diddling, gun toting religious nuts who shot four federal agents, which is exactly what they did.

You are also totally wrong about all the wars since WWII. Not a single one was authorized by Congress.

Um, yeah, they were.... the rest is just nonsense.

As for mental health, you are again totally wrong. No court ever ruled you can't lock up the mentally ill. They have always ruled you can and should. Law was never the issue, but money was. And it was Reagan who cut the money.

Well, you are still out and about... But you really need to look up the court precedences.

O'Connor v. Donaldson - Wikipedia

Addington v. Texas - Wikipedia

Pretty much after these two cases, along with public backlash against mental institutions, the rules changed and they released the mentally ill onto our streets. I recall it well, where the nice neighborhood i grew up in suddenly had a slew of homeless people showing up, just released from the mental hospital with no idea how to take care of themselves.

The 1980 act you mention was a response to that to try to get local communities to pick up the ball.

With the section on gun control being a dictatorship, and the rest of the world just having a benevolent dictatorship, you miss the point.
The comparison with the rest of the world is that the US has a dictatorship that is NOT benevolent. While the rest of the world's dictatorship are benevolent at least for now.

Again, guy, I don't want to live in a libertarian Anarchy. I like breathing clean air, I like drinking clean water, I like knowing the food I eat isn't going to poison me. I like to know that my drive to work tomorrow isn't going to be the Community Theater version of Mad Max.

You probably don't want to, either, really. You just don't like the fact that if put to a vote, most of the country would probably limit your ability to own a gun because, hey, you're nuts.

No, asswipe...... the ATF was looking for a big, splashy raid....it was budget time....... they could have arrested the leader of that group as he walked back from town......since he did that all the time...

And what we objected to, you doofus....was when janet reno, on orders from bill clinton murdered all of those children......for no reason other than bill "the actual rapist" clinton, wanted the stand off over...... you moron.

 

[JoeB131]

No, asswipe...... the ATF was looking for a big, splashy raid....it was budget time....... they could have arrested the leader of that group as he walked back from town......since he did that all the time...

Splashy raids are a good thing. They remind people of what the law is and doing their jobs. Just arresting Koresh wasn't the goal, it was to catch his merry band of cultists in the act of illegally modifying and selling guns.

And what we objected to, you doofus....was when janet reno, on orders from bill clinton murdered all of those children......for no reason other than bill "the actual rapist" clinton, wanted the stand off over...... you moron.

Three investigations found the Davidians killed themselves, including one run by Republican John Danforth.

Do you really think that Clinton and Reno, who had been on the job less than three months at that point, were really calling the shots? No, they relied on what the FBI told them.

Where the fault lies is with the FBI thinking this was a standard hostage situation, having little experience dealing with crazy cults.

 

[2aguy]

No, asswipe...... the ATF was looking for a big, splashy raid....it was budget time....... they could have arrested the leader of that group as he walked back from town......since he did that all the time...

Splashy raids are a good thing. They remind people of what the law is and doing their jobs. Just arresting Koresh wasn't the goal, it was to catch his merry band of cultists in the act of illegally modifying and selling guns.

And what we objected to, you doofus....was when janet reno, on orders from bill clinton murdered all of those children......for no reason other than bill "the actual rapist" clinton, wanted the stand off over...... you moron.

Three investigations found the Davidians killed themselves, including one run by Republican John Danforth.

Do you really think that Clinton and Reno, who had been on the job less than three months at that point, were really calling the shots? No, they relied on what the FBI told them.

Where the fault lies is with the FBI thinking this was a standard hostage situation, having little experience dealing with crazy cults.

they had them contained......they wanted it over, they assaulted the compound knowing that children were in harms way....that's on bill 'the rapist" clinton and his minion janet reno...

 

[JoeB131]

they had them contained......they wanted it over, they assaulted the compound knowing that children were in harms way....that's on bill 'the rapist" clinton and his minion janet reno...

Um, no, that was on David Koresh for not complying and ordering his followers to burn themselves to death because he didn't want to go to jail labeled as a ChoMo.

Would waiting them out have been smarter? Maybe. Or maybe they'd have waited 10 more days and THEN committed mass suicide.

 

[2aguy]

they had them contained......they wanted it over, they assaulted the compound knowing that children were in harms way....that's on bill 'the rapist" clinton and his minion janet reno...

Um, no, that was on David Koresh for not complying and ordering his followers to burn themselves to death because he didn't want to go to jail labeled as a ChoMo.

Would waiting them out have been smarter? Maybe. Or maybe they'd have waited 10 more days and THEN committed mass suicide.

They knew there were children in those buildings when they ordered them rammed.....that is on bill "the rapist" and janet reno.....

 

[JoeB131]

They knew there were children in those buildings when they ordered them rammed.....that is on bill "the rapist" and janet reno.....

Yes, there were children in there with gun-toting, child molesting cultists who were using them as human shields.

Right Wing Martyr!

 

[2aguy]

They knew there were children in those buildings when they ordered them rammed.....that is on bill "the rapist" and janet reno.....

Yes, there were children in there with gun-toting, child molesting cultists who were using them as human shields.

Right Wing Martyr!

Yes.....children in the buildings when bill "the rapist" clinton ordered them rammed with the armored vehicle.......and the children were killed......

 

[JoeB131]

Yes.....children in the buildings when bill "the rapist" clinton ordered them rammed with the armored vehicle.......and the children were killed......

Because your hero Koresh killed them... That was the finding of John Danforth.

 

[Jarlaxle]

whats this bizarre thing where when liberals dont understand something, they demonize it then ban it?

Not sure what you mean by not understanding it. I understand guns just fine. My MOS in the Army was repairing guns. ("this is my rifle, this is my gun... " Oh, never mind, I was having a flashback)

What I do understand is that these weapons are deadly and you don't give them to people like Adam Lanza or Nick Cruz or James "Joker" Holmes...because 250 years ago, some Slave Rapist couldn't word a militia amendment clearly.

Just amend and you can pass all the "common sense" gun laws you want.

Or we can pass them and litigate until the NRA is bankrupt...

Investigating the NRA leadership for corruption and collusion with Russia, also a good idea.

My own opinion, every time LaPeirre or Ollie North gets on the Air spewing NRA filth and lies, we split screen it with crime scene photos of a mass shooting.

$100 each sent to JPFO and GOA.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Moron....our gun crime rate went down 49% since 1993 as Pew reports.....it went up a little in 2015 because of the Ferguson Effect and obama and his Justice Department attacking the police.......it is now going back down again...

It doesn't matter. If he was really serious about getting his gun control in place, he would be pushing for a constitutional amendment.

He is not. It is just hot air.

No, he simply wants judges to declare the Constitution does not mean what it says.

 

[Jarlaxle]

I see your emotions are getting the best of you.

Just relax. You can always go live where you have no rights. We can't.

Uh, guy, here's the thing.

When I go into work (or at my old job before I started my own business) I had to walk through three security checkpoints designed to lock down the building in case of an "active shooter". At another job, we had active shooter training conducted by the Schaumburg PD. We live in a world of metal detectors, CCTV, security guards, all because of your fetish to put more guns out there in the hands of even crazier people.

This by you is "Free"?

And all these checkpoints caused harm?
I don't think so.

But when you start making federal gun laws, in violation of the Constitution, the result is things like 76 people murdered at Waco by BATF.
Do you not understand that the reason for the inconvenient and stupid checkpoints is because YOU and others like YOU, refuse to live up to their responsibility to defend themselves?
In a democratic republic, it is the people who are supposed to defend themselves, so that we then do not have to create a corruptable government force of bureaucrats who can easily create a dictatorship.
There are 3 main threats to society, criminals, government, and irresponsible lazy people.
Illegal and dangerous gun laws cause the first 2 to be dangerous, and the third group causes all the illegal and dangerous gun laws.

This is the dude who masturbates to pictures of the Branch Davidians being burned alive.

 

[JoeB131]

This is the dude who masturbates to pictures of the Branch Davidians being burned alive.

Hey, did you hear the Branch Davidians broke off into two sects? Orthodox and Extra-Crispy.

What Does WACO stand for?

1. We Ain't Comin' Out
2. We All Cremated Ourselves
3. When Attacked, Cook Out!

Q: How many Branch Davidians does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: None, BD's use natural lighting.

Q: How many BDs can you fit in the back of a Volkswagon?
A: All of them, right now. The ones who left are wimps, and don't count.

Q: Whats the heat capacity of a BD?
A: Not high enough, apparently.

What were David KorASH's Last Words?

"No, Bud Light!"
"Just kidding, I'm not really God."
"OW!!!!" <- best guess.


What do David KorASH and Burger King Whopper have in common?

They are both flame broiled.


Why is David KorASH still in the news?

Because of his smouldering personality.



What do David KorASH and Richard Simmons have in common?

They are both flamers.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Stop beating off, the orderlies will chase you down with cattle prods again.