Hate crime?

[catzmeow]

Right, I'm not rational cause I can't tell the difference between gangs and race

You're not rational because you don't understand that from the perspective of a victim, all crimes look like hate crimes. Nor do you understand that from the perspective of prosecution, hate crimes legislation creates protected classes where by just by being a victim/suspect of a specific skin color or sexual orientation, your crime is treated differently from an identical crime on the same day involving similar perpetrators/victims. That isn't justice.

 

[cunclusion]

Not all crimes that are commited against someone of a particular creed, race or sexual orientation on another is categorized as that. Only when they start with slurs that are demeaning to the other person then it is categorized as that. If a white or black man just goes up to each other and just shoots and one dies the other goes to jail you will not hear much about it but when they are spouting ignorance towards each other then hate crime comes into effect. Which means to avoid such things a person needs to thinking correctly.
1. Not be part of a group that will pretty much almost make it an automatic hate crime.
2. Dont say anything ignorant(like that is going to happen)
3. Just walk away (makes the most sense anyway)...

 

[Nik]

SO why is this arguement still going on. Stubborn is one thing being unable to use logic and fact to back your claims or refusing to comprehend data for the reason that it will weaken your arguement is ignorant. There is no difference between a racially motivated crime and a gang crime. When a gang beats and robs a man because he is in ownership of a piece of property that the gang wants is it his fault for buying it? Killing for possesions is a hate crime because someone hates that another person has what they want.

No, its not "his fault". I knew someone was going to say something retarded like this. Just because a crime isn't predicated on hate doesn't mean its not a crime or shouldn't be prevented. Someone being killed is bad whether its because of hate, or for property.

 

[Nik]

Right, I'm not rational cause I can't tell the difference between gangs and race

You're not rational because you don't understand that from the perspective of a victim, all crimes look like hate crimes. Nor do you understand that from the perspective of prosecution, hate crimes legislation creates protected classes where by just by being a victim/suspect of a specific skin color or sexual orientation, your crime is treated differently from an identical crime on the same day involving similar perpetrators/victims. That isn't justice.

Why exactly are you looking at this from the perspective of the victim? I know you are overly emotional and have trouble looking at things rationally, but surely we should be looking at this from the perspective of objective, rational observers, not the victim.

And your assertion about the "perspective of prosecution" is false. Its not about the race of the victims or the criminals, its about the motives of the criminal.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Right, I'm not rational cause I can't tell the difference between gangs and race

You're not rational because you don't understand that from the perspective of a victim, all crimes look like hate crimes. Nor do you understand that from the perspective of prosecution, hate crimes legislation creates protected classes where by just by being a victim/suspect of a specific skin color or sexual orientation, your crime is treated differently from an identical crime on the same day involving similar perpetrators/victims. That isn't justice.

It is patently obvious that you are clueless about hate crime. You're like a Holocaust denier.

 

[Sky Dancer]

javascript:imagemapclickcontroller('OK')

SPLCenter.org: Hate Groups Map

"The Southern Poverty Law Center counted 926 active hate groups in the United States in 2008. Only organizations and their chapters known to be active during 2008 are included."

The whole point of denying that hate crime exists is to denigrate the classes of people that are included in the legislation.

It's flame baiting pure and simple.

I support the work of the Southern Poverty Law Center, and Morris Dees is a personal hero. Thanks for mentioning them in your post. Here's an excellent article by the Bureau of Justice about hate crime in Sacramento and one communities response to that. Provided by the Sacramento Police Department.
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/fs000161.pdf

 

[catzmeow]

Why exactly are you looking at this from the perspective of the victim? I know you are overly emotional and have trouble looking at things rationally, but surely we should be looking at this from the perspective of objective, rational observers, not the victim.

And your assertion about the "perspective of prosecution" is false. Its not about the race of the victims or the criminals, its about the motives of the criminal.

You calling anyone overly emotional is rich, dude, given that you've been unable to substantiate ANY of your so-called points with evidence.

I think I'm done pretending like you HAVE a point.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Here is a report from Salon, which covered the murder and trial extensively, that could help inform Rep. Foxx of the truth about Matthew Shepard’s murder:

According to the detectives, Henderson’s testimony also would have resolved the most contested issue of the case: that he and McKinney initially approached Shepard and posed as gays to lure him out of the Fireside Lounge to rob him.

Henderson provided a detailed account of that plan. The killers identified Shepard as a lonely homosexual, an easy mark, and retreated to the bathroom to hatch their plot. Henderson made the first advance by whispering a come-on in Shepard’s ear, and “McKinney tried to feminize his voice to continue the lure,” DeBree said.
Even the initial robbery plan was planned entirely because he was gay. And that is not even to consider the eventual way in which the robbers-turned-killers brutalized Matthew, beat in his skull, tied him to a fence and left him to die.
Remembering Our History, Improving Our Future « Law Dork, 2.0

 

[Nik]

Why exactly are you looking at this from the perspective of the victim? I know you are overly emotional and have trouble looking at things rationally, but surely we should be looking at this from the perspective of objective, rational observers, not the victim.

And your assertion about the "perspective of prosecution" is false. Its not about the race of the victims or the criminals, its about the motives of the criminal.

You calling anyone overly emotional is rich, dude, given that you've been unable to substantiate ANY of your so-called points with evidence.

I think I'm done pretending like you HAVE a point.

Exactly what evidence are you looking for?

And yes, you are acting overly emotional. You can bitch, whine, and cry about that all you want, but you wanted to look at this only from the perspective of the victim. Thats being emotional. Anyone rational would want to look at it from ALL perspectives.

 

[catzmeow]

The whole point of denying that hate crime exists is to denigrate the classes of people that are included in the legislation.

It's flame baiting pure and simple.

That's your perception, but it is mistaken. There are MANY, MANY people who work in the system with violent crime who consider this legislation to be an ineffectual sop to advocacy groups. It's not about denigrating those groups, but about EMBRACING WHAT WORKS, and discarding those actions that are purely symbolic in nature (versus effective).

I prefer actions be taken that actually ACCOMPLISH A STATED GOAL, rather than just taking action to give the appearance of doing something.

If we REALLY wanted to deal with the issue of violence against gays and lesbians, we'd deal more openly with domestic violence issues, given that the overwhelming majority of violent crimes against gays/lesbians aren't HATE related, but domestic violence related.

It's the same kind of stilted politically correct nonsense that attempts to hush up the issue of female perpetrators of domestic violence and paint all men as aggressors.

The fact of the matter is that the number 1 risk to the health of gays and lesbians, in regards to crime, is OTHER GAYS AND LESBIANS:

Diane Dolan-Soto & Sara Kaplan, New York Lesbian, Gay, Transgender and Bisexual Domestic Violence Report, at 5 (2005), available at http://www.avp.org/publications/repo...05nycdvrpt.pdf.
One survey found that same-sex cohabitants reported significantly more intimate partner violence than did opposite-sex cohabitants. Among women, 39.2% of the same-sex cohabitants and 21.7 of the opposite- sex cohabitants reported being raped, physically assaulted, and/or stalked by a marital/cohabiting partner at some time in their lifetime.

But you don't want to deal with that. You prefer to paint straight people as your personal scapegoats, no matter what the facts say, just like you prefer to paint men as aggressors against women.

Do you realize that white people are about a thousand times more likely to be victimized by a black person than vice versa, based upon crime stats? I learned that trying to disprove a claim by a racist on this board. But, that won't stop these kinds of legislation from going forward.

Who cares what the inconvenient truth is, anyway? We like to have our protected victim classes, no matter what the truth of the matter is. They're our pet projects, our way of absolving liberal guilt.

 

[catzmeow]

Facts about violence against gays/lesbians:

Domestic violence occurs within same-sex relationships as it does in heterosexual relationships. The acronym LGBT is often used and stands for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender.

11% of lesbians reported violence by their female partner and 15% of gay men who had lived with a male partner reported being victimized by a male partner.

Patricia Tjaden, Symposium on Integrating Responses to Domestic Violence: Extent and Nature of Intimate Partner Violence as measured by the National Violence Against Women Survey, 47 Loy. L. Rev. 41, 54 (2003).

Of the LGBT victims who sought services from the New York City Gay and Lesbian Anti-Violence Project, 36% of clients in 2003 and 38% of clients in 2004 filed police reports regarding intimate partner violence.

Diane Dolan-Soto & Sara Kaplan, New York Lesbian, Gay, Transgender and Bisexual Domestic Violence Report, at 6 (2005), available at http://www.avp.org/publications/reports/2005nycdvrpt.pdf.

Eighty-eight percent of victims in 2003 and 91 percent of victims in 2004 reported experiencing prior incidents of abuse, with the majority (45 percent and 47 percent, respectively) reporting having experienced more than 10 prior incidents.

Diane Dolan-Soto & Sara Kaplan, New York Lesbian, Gay, Transgender and Bisexual Domestic Violence Report, at 5 (2005), available at http://www.avp.org/publications/reports/2005nycdvrpt.pdf.
One survey found that same-sex cohabitants reported significantly more intimate partner violence than did opposite-sex cohabitants. Among women, 39.2% of the same-sex cohabitants and 21.7 of the opposite- sex cohabitants reported being raped, physically assaulted, and/or stalked by a marital/cohabiting partner at some time in their lifetime.

Patricia Tjaden & Nancy Thoennes, U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 181867, Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, at 30 (2000), available at Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings From the National Violence Against Women Survey | National Institute of Justice
15.4% of same-sex cohabiting men reported being raped, physically assaulted and/or stalked by a male partner, but 10.8% reported such violence by a female partner.

Patricia Tjaden & Nancy Thoennes, U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 181867, Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, at 30 (2000), available at Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings From the National Violence Against Women Survey | National Institute of Justice

According to the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs:

6,523 incidence of lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender violence were recorded in eleven distinct cities and regions across the USA and Toronto, Ontario. 44% of the victims were men and 36% were women. This represented a 13% increase over the 5718 cases reported in 2002 by the same agencies and includes six reported deaths in the context of actual or suspected LGBT violence. Arizona reported one death and New York City reported five deaths.

4,964 or about 79% of the new incidents were reported in Los Angeles. The number of LGBT incidents in other cities and states include Boston (290), New York City (501), San Francisco (388), Colorado (139) , Chicago (65), Columbus, Ohio (46) , Pennsylvania (19) , Burlington, Vermont (21), Tuscon (64).

5,374 (82%) of the victims of domestic violence reported to the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs identified themselves as gay; 575 (9%) were cases in which the victim declined to specify a sexual orientation or it was not recorded; 263 (4%) identified as bisexual; and 44 (0.6 %) were not sure or questioned their sexual orientation.

Of the 42% incidence of domestic violence where race was recorded, 1,211 or 44% were white, 684 or 25% were Latino, 413 or 15% were of African descent, 153 or 5% were Asian/Pacific Islander, 125 or 4% were multicultural; just under 36 or 0.01% were indigenous/first people and about 0.01 were Arab/Middle Easterners, Jewish and others.

Nat'l Advoc. for Local Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Communities, Nat'l Coal. of Anti-Violence Programs, Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Domestic Violence: 2003 Supplement - An Update from the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs (2004), at 3-8, 10, available at Reports--AVP: The Anti-Violence Project

American Bar Association - Commission on Domestic Violence: Key Statistics

Tell me...how many hate crimes were committed against gays/lesbians in the past year? Was it 5,000?

 

[catzmeow]

Exactly what evidence are you looking for?

1. Evidence as to the number of hate crimes directed towards gays/lesbians annually in the U.S.

2. Evidence that hate crime laws reduce violent crimes against the protected class.

That will be sufficient. You've offered NO evidence, to date, of any of your claims.

 

[catzmeow]

The only reason I know what I do about crimes against gays/lesbians is because, about 15 years ago, the department I worked for did a study of violent crime against gays/lesbians, with the goal of dealing with hate crime. The department found that there were VERY FEW hate crimes against gays/lesbians, and that the overwhelming majority of time that gays/lesbians were the victims of violence, the perpetrators were OTHER GAYS/LESBIANS.

When the department went back to the gay/lesbian community with this information, the crime stat were quickly hushed up. They inconveniently didn't support the advocacy groups' existing paradigms about violence in their community.

They were never released to the media, as had been planned. The advocacy groups went on with their crusade against hate, and the truth was never discussed openly.

Welcome to the world of PC run amok.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Between July and October 1993, four arsons and three attempted arsons were committed by a self-proclaimed white separatist in Sacramento, California.

The first was the attempted arson of a Jewish temple in July. A few days later, the local office of the NAACP was destroyed by fire. Neither organization recieved threats prio to the attacks and no individual claimed responsibility.

The investigation of the NAACP arson was exhaustive but recovered little physcial evidence that could identify a suspect.

After the failed arson attempts in August and September, the connection between the crimes and their motivation of hate became clear to investigators and residents of Sacramento when the arsonist used Molotov cocktails to ignite the offices of the Japanese American Citizens League and the State Office of Fair Employment Housing as well as the home of an Asian American city council man.

Calling himself the Aryan Liberation Front, the arsonist telephone local TV stations claiming responsibility for all arson attacks. Widespread public fear put intense pressure on local state and federal officials to stop the burnings. A task force was formed and by using the profile to conduct a computer search of white supremacists in the area the suspect was found. Cloth at his home matched wicks recovered from the crime scenes.

Hate crimes outrage community members as few events can.

Source is Bureau of Justice Assistance fact sheet.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The only reason I know what I do about crimes against gays/lesbians is because, about 15 years ago, the department I worked for did a study of violent crime against gays/lesbians, with the goal of dealing with hate crime. The department found that there were VERY FEW hate crimes against gays/lesbians, and that the overwhelming majority of time that gays/lesbians were the victims of violence, the perpetrators were OTHER GAYS/LESBIANS.

When the department went back to the gay/lesbian community with this information, the crime stat were quickly hushed up. They inconveniently didn't support the advocacy groups' existing paradigms about violence in their community.

They were never released to the media, as had been planned. The advocacy groups went on with their crusade against hate, and the truth was never discussed openly.

Welcome to the world of PC run amok.

Never released to the media, how convenient for you. Your argument is about numbers, which doesn't address the fact that hate crime against gays and lesbians exists and that the Matthew Shepard Act is needed.

All this act does is add gays and lesbians to the list of minorities targeted by hate crime and included already in the 1968 Hate Crime law.

You don't give a shit about violence against gays and lesbians, IMO. No surprises there.

 

[catzmeow]

Between July and October 1993, four arsons and three attempted arsons were committed by a self-proclaimed white separatist in Sacramento, California.

The first was the attempted arson of a Jewish temple in July. A few days later, the local office of the NAACP was destroyed by fire. Neither organization recieved threats prio to the attacks and no individual claimed responsibility.

The investigation of the NAACP arson was exhaustive but recovered little physcial evidence that could identify a suspect.

After the failed arson attempts in August and September, the connection between the crimes and their motivation of hate became clear to investigators and residents of Sacramento when the arsonist used Molotov cocktails to ignite the offices of the Japanese American Citizens League and the State Office of Fair Employment Housing as well as the home of an Asian American city council man.

Calling himself the Aryan Liberation Front, the arsonist telephone local TV stations claiming responsibility for all arson attacks. Widespread public fear put intense pressure on local state and federal officials to stop the burnings. A task force was formed and by using the profile to conduct a computer search of white supremacists in the area the suspect was found. Cloth at his home matched wicks recovered from the crime scenes.

Hate crimes outrage community members as few events can.

Source is Bureau of Justice Assistance fact sheet.

During that time period in 1993, how many whites were robbed, raped, and murdered by blacks in Sacramento? During that time period in 1993, how many blacks were victims of violent crimes perpetrated by OTHER BLACK PEOPLE?

That is the reality of crime in America...the hate crimes get all the coverage, but in terms of numbers, they are VERY INSIGNIFICANT in comparison to ongoing victimization of blacks and whites by black perpetrators.

I'm not a racist, that is based upon actual data.

 

[catzmeow]

Never released to the media, how convenient for you.

Conveniently enough, these were:

Diane Dolan-Soto & Sara Kaplan, New York Lesbian, Gay, Transgender and Bisexual Domestic Violence Report, at 5 (2005), available at http://www.avp.org/publications/repo...05nycdvrpt.pdf.
One survey found that same-sex cohabitants reported significantly more intimate partner violence than did opposite-sex cohabitants. Among women, 39.2% of the same-sex cohabitants and 21.7 of the opposite- sex cohabitants reported being raped, physically assaulted, and/or stalked by a marital/cohabiting partner at some time in their lifetime.

Patricia Tjaden & Nancy Thoennes, U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 181867, Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, at 30 (2000), available at Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings From the National Violence Against Women Survey | National Institute of Justice
15.4% of same-sex cohabiting men reported being raped, physically assaulted and/or stalked by a male partner, but 10.8% reported such violence by a female partner.

Patricia Tjaden & Nancy Thoennes, U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 181867, Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, at 30 (2000), available at Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings From the National Violence Against Women Survey | National Institute of Justice

According to the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs:

6,523 incidence of lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender violence were recorded in eleven distinct cities and regions across the USA and Toronto, Ontario. 44% of the victims were men and 36% were women. This represented a 13% increase over the 5718 cases reported in 2002 by the same agencies and includes six reported deaths in the context of actual or suspected LGBT violence. Arizona reported one death and New York City reported five deaths.

4,964 or about 79% of the new incidents were reported in Los Angeles. The number of LGBT incidents in other cities and states include Boston (290), New York City (501), San Francisco (388), Colorado (139) , Chicago (65), Columbus, Ohio (46) , Pennsylvania (19) , Burlington, Vermont (21), Tuscon (64).

5,374 (82%) of the victims of domestic violence reported to the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs identified themselves as gay; 575 (9%) were cases in which the victim declined to specify a sexual orientation or it was not recorded; 263 (4%) identified as bisexual; and 44 (0.6 %) were not sure or questioned their sexual orientation.

Of the 42% incidence of domestic violence where race was recorded, 1,211 or 44% were white, 684 or 25% were Latino, 413 or 15% were of African descent, 153 or 5% were Asian/Pacific Islander, 125 or 4% were multicultural; just under 36 or 0.01% were indigenous/first people and about 0.01 were Arab/Middle Easterners, Jewish and others.

 

[Sky Dancer]

catz

You're like a Holocaust denier, only instead of Jews being who you want to hurt, you target gays and lesbians.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Between July and October 1993, four arsons and three attempted arsons were committed by a self-proclaimed white separatist in Sacramento, California.

The first was the attempted arson of a Jewish temple in July. A few days later, the local office of the NAACP was destroyed by fire. Neither organization recieved threats prio to the attacks and no individual claimed responsibility.

The investigation of the NAACP arson was exhaustive but recovered little physcial evidence that could identify a suspect.

After the failed arson attempts in August and September, the connection between the crimes and their motivation of hate became clear to investigators and residents of Sacramento when the arsonist used Molotov cocktails to ignite the offices of the Japanese American Citizens League and the State Office of Fair Employment Housing as well as the home of an Asian American city council man.

Calling himself the Aryan Liberation Front, the arsonist telephone local TV stations claiming responsibility for all arson attacks. Widespread public fear put intense pressure on local state and federal officials to stop the burnings. A task force was formed and by using the profile to conduct a computer search of white supremacists in the area the suspect was found. Cloth at his home matched wicks recovered from the crime scenes.

Hate crimes outrage community members as few events can.

Source is Bureau of Justice Assistance fact sheet.

During that time period in 1993, how many whites were robbed, raped, and murdered by blacks in Sacramento? During that time period in 1993, how many blacks were victims of violent crimes perpetrated by OTHER BLACK PEOPLE?


I'm not a racist, that is based upon actual data.

I provided actual data documenting a wave of hate crime that terrorized the Sacramento community in 1993 and your response? Minimize it's importance--deflect to other crimes so that you can pretend that hate crimes don't happen and aren't important.

Other crime occurs, but individual crime did not terrorize the Sacramento community the way this wave of hate motivated arson did. You're a hate crime denier in much the same way as a Holocaust denier with the same tactics--deflect to the numbers. Was it six million Jews or only three million?

Too bad your mind is such a steel trap on the subject.

 

[Nik]

The whole point of denying that hate crime exists is to denigrate the classes of people that are included in the legislation.

It's flame baiting pure and simple.

That's your perception, but it is mistaken. There are MANY, MANY people who work in the system with violent crime who consider this legislation to be an ineffectual sop to advocacy groups. It's not about denigrating those groups, but about EMBRACING WHAT WORKS, and discarding those actions that are purely symbolic in nature (versus effective).

Its debatable whether its effectual or not. But the bullshit you spew about how all crimes are hate, and about how theres no difference between gang violence and hate crimes against gays.

I prefer actions be taken that actually ACCOMPLISH A STATED GOAL, rather than just taking action to give the appearance of doing something.

Ok, I'll go survey all the people who were gonna commit a crime, but now didn't.

Although there are ways to measure those stats, they are pretty hard. Its pretty unclear what exactly hate legislation does.

If we REALLY wanted to deal with the issue of violence against gays and lesbians, we'd deal more openly with domestic violence issues, given that the overwhelming majority of violent crimes against gays/lesbians aren't HATE related, but domestic violence related.

Symbolism matters. Theres a reason why we went to war, and spend billions on dollars because of 9/11 even though "only" 3,000 people died. Spending 90 billion for another 6 months in Iraq is just thought of as the price we need to pay for "safety". Whereas 90 billion for healthcare is somehow a massive waste of money.

But this thought process goes on in homosexuals minds as well. People aren't in perpetual fear of being a victim of domestic violence. They have some semblance of control over it. Tell me exactly what control a victim of a hate crime has over that?

It's the same kind of stilted politically correct nonsense that attempts to hush up the issue of female perpetrators of domestic violence and paint all men as aggressors.

Nobody attempts to "hush it up". But males disproportionately are abusers.

The fact of the matter is that the number 1 risk to the health of gays and lesbians, in regards to crime, is OTHER GAYS AND LESBIANS.

And we can, and should, address that. But that is something that can be addressed within the GLBT community. Hate crimes are something all of society needs to deal with.

Do you realize that white people are about a thousand times more likely to be victimized by a black person than vice versa, based upon crime stats? I learned that trying to disprove a claim by a racist on this board. But, that won't stop these kinds of legislation from going forward.

And this diminishes the seriousness of hate crimes, how exactly?

Who cares what the inconvenient truth is, anyway? We like to have our protected victim classes, no matter what the truth of the matter is. They're our pet projects, our way of absolving liberal guilt.

You aren't speaking truth, you are just making weird generalizations and speaking emotionally.