Zone1 How does one figure out what in the Old Testament to keep, what to throw out?

[toobfreak]

Homosexual wild animals. There are plenty of them.

I bet most of them are on the endangered species list.

 

[Clyde 154]

Why remove any of it?

The Bible and the Laws of the Old Testament demonstrate the evolution of mankind both in flesh and spirit. They also demonstrate God's love and mercy and his willingness to never abandon his people.

The New Testament fulfills the law and the books of the prophets. Without the Old Testament, the Bible would be incomplete - and that includes some of the outdated practices and guidelines. We need to remember that those laws and guidelines were written for mankind at the time. And as harsh as some of them sound, they helped establish some of the very first civilizations.

Why remove any of the Old Law? 1st.........the Old Law (of Moses) in its entirety applied only to one nation "Biblical Israel", God was Husbanded to 1 nation ........Israel. (Deut. 5:2-3, Jer.31:31-34) The Old Law never applied to any Gentile Nation.

If you still live under the Old Law, any part of the Old Law......and attempt to declare that you are Christian.....you have fallen from Grace. (Gal. 5:4) You are committing spiritual adultery, you can't be bound (husbanded) to another if the old spouse bride...is still living.

Though the Old Law was removed its still useful as a schoolmaster -- Gal. 3:24, The Old Law provides evidence that Jesus is the Messiah of prophecy (John 5:39)

The Old Law was nailed to the cross of Jesus Christ (Col. 2:14) But.........the eternally righteous laws of God that can be applied to all mankind is carried forward into the N.T., the "perfect law of liberty -- James 1:25" i.e., all the 10 commandments save 1........Sabbath Worship, which applied only to Biblical Israel, these commandments are found by book, chapter and verse in the N.T. scripture ........let no man judge you in food or Sabbath (Col. 2:16-23)

What was the purpose of the Old Law? The Old Law defined sin. The laws of God are righteous in nature. (Ps. 119:137-138, 164). But man is not righteous....no, not One (Romans 3:10-12). The law made man accountable for his actions (as men had the knowledge of good and evil -- Gen. 3:22) The law defined sin and demonstrated to man that he could not be justified by the Law alone (Rom. 3:19-20)

Sin is not imputed to man if there is no Law. (Rom. 5:13). But with the law defining sin it made man aware of how serve it was to sin (Rom 7:7-13).

Because man was incapable of keeping the law perfectly, the Old Law convicted all men with the guilt of sin. The Old Law bond each man to his/her own sin (Gal 3:21-22). This blinded mankind to sin......(if you are guilty of breaking 1 law....why worry about following any of the law, you are just as guilty with 1 sin as you are with multiple sins).....until mankind realized it was hopeless with no help...........the Old Law would eventually make man appreciate God's mercy (Rom 11:32)

Being guilty of sin........this lead mankind to the mercy of Jesus Christ and forgiveness through GRACE. (Gal. 3:23-25)

The scriptures reveal that the Old Law was only temporary (Jer. 31:31-34).............a New Covenant was coming.

Jesus Christ is the ending of the Old Law (Rom 10:4)

What? Was the Old Law imperfect? Of course not........the law was righteous.......its mankind that failed to keep the law.

There is only one man, born of a woman, born under the law (Gal. 4:4).....that was tempted as are all men, but sinned not (Heb. 4:15)........Jesus Christ, who then took the sins of the world upon His spotless soul (John 1:29, Rom 3:21-26)

 

[Ace Nova]

Why remove any of the Old Law? 1st.........the Old Law (of Moses) in its entirety applied only to one nation "Biblical Israel", God was Husbanded to 1 nation ........Israel. (Deut. 5:2-3, Jer.31:31-34) The Old Law never applied to any Gentile Nation.

If you still live under the Old Law, any part of the Old Law......and attempt to declare that you are Christian.....you have fallen from Grace. (Gal. 5:4) You are committing spiritual adultery, you can't be bound (husbanded) to another if the old spouse bride...is still living.

Though the Old Law was removed its still useful as a schoolmaster -- Gal. 3:24, The Old Law provides evidence that Jesus is the Messiah of prophecy (John 5:39)

The Old Law was nailed to the cross of Jesus Christ (Col. 2:14) But.........the eternally righteous laws of God that can be applied to all mankind is carried forward into the N.T., the "perfect law of liberty -- James 1:25" i.e., all the 10 commandments save 1........Sabbath Worship, which applied only to Biblical Israel, these commandments are found by book, chapter and verse in the N.T. scripture ........let no man judge you in food or Sabbath (Col. 2:16-23)

What was the purpose of the Old Law? The Old Law defined sin. The laws of God are righteous in nature. (Ps. 119:137-138, 164). But man is not righteous....no, not One (Romans 3:10-12). The law made man accountable for his actions (as men had the knowledge of good and evil -- Gen. 3:22) The law defined sin and demonstrated to man that he could not be justified by the Law alone (Rom. 3:19-20)

Sin is not imputed to man if there is no Law. (Rom. 5:13). But with the law defining sin it made man aware of how serve it was to sin (Rom 7:7-13).

Because man was incapable of keeping the law perfectly, the Old Law convicted all men with the guilt of sin. The Old Law bond each man to his/her own sin (Gal 3:21-22). This blinded mankind to sin......(if you are guilty of breaking 1 law....why worry about following any of the law, you are just as guilty with 1 sin as you are with multiple sins).....until mankind realized it was hopeless with no help...........the Old Law would eventually make man appreciate God's mercy (Rom 11:32)

Being guilty of sin........this lead mankind to the mercy of Jesus Christ and forgiveness through GRACE. (Gal. 3:23-25)

The scriptures reveal that the Old Law was only temporary (Jer. 31:31-34).............a New Covenant was coming.

Jesus Christ is the ending of the Old Law (Rom 10:4)

What? Was the Old Law imperfect? Of course not........the law was righteous.......its mankind that failed to keep the law.

There is only one man, born of a woman, born under the law (Gal. 4:4).....that was tempted as are all men, but sinned not (Heb. 4:15)........Jesus Christ, who then took the sins of the world upon His spotless soul (John 1:29, Rom 3:21-26)

Jesus Christ told us not to:

Matthew 5:17

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

[nomadic5]

What part of the OLD TESTAMENT is to be used as doctrine under the N.T. Covenant? That which is carried forward and recorded in the N.T. of Christ Jesus. Example: All 10 of the commandments .......save 1, are carried forward into the N.T. covenant (and they are easily documented by book, chapter and verse)......in other words all the eternally righteous commandments of God are carried forward. What is the difference....why Did God nail the majority of the Old Law to the sacrificial cross of Jesus? (Col. 2:14) That also is explained........the Old Law of Moses was written specifically for only 1 nation.......... Israel (under the Old Law God was a husband unto Israel only -- Jer. 31:31-34, Deut. 5:2-3)

The Old Law was a shadow of the New Law (Col. 2:16-17). It was a shadow of better things......in revealing the mystery of Jesus Christ which had existed before time began or the worlds were created (Heb. 10:1, 1 Peter 1:20, 2 Tim. 1:9, Eph. 3:5,6)

To suggest that man cannot understand the holy scriptures and requires a 3rd person to interpret contradicts the actual content of the Holy Scriptures. We as readers of the word of God are "TOLD" that when we read scripture, we may understand it (Eph. 3:4) Even further, we are COMMANDED to understand/comprehend the will of God (Eph. 5:17).

The scriptures declare that no middle man (holier than thou priest) is required to approach the throne of Christ via prayer.......as every Christian is a member of a Royal Priest Hood with Jesus Christ as our high priest who is always just to hear our prayers (1 Peter 2:9...Heb. 4:14-16, 1 John 1:8-10)

As stated earlier...........all the righteous commandments of God found in the Old Law are carried forward into the New Covenant expect Sabbath Worship which was nailed to the cross (Col. 2:14)

1. Thou shall have no other Gods before Me. (Ex. 20:3, 1 Cor. 10:21-22) 2. Thou shall not make unto thee any graven image (Ex. 20:4, 1 Cor. 6:9-10). 3. Thou shall not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain (Ex. 20:7, 1 Cor. 6:9-10)
4. Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy. (Ex. 20:8). Not found in the N.T. Covenant, Christians gather on the 1st day of the week to brake bread (communion.....in remembrance of Jesus Christ sacrifice until He returns .........."Let no one judge you in food or drink, or Sabbaths (Col. 2:16-17)

The other 6 Holy Commandments are just as easy to document by book, chapter and verse in the N.T. covenant of Jesus Christ.

I read maybe 1/2 of this

There are a few things that are misguided or whatever.

To say that we don't need priests or bishops to interpret Scripture shows a lack of knowledge of human nature AND a lack of knowledge of history. As a person studying Church history will discover, there was ONE Christian Church in the world (still is only one) until the infamous heretic LUther came on the scene in the 16th century. Then people disagreed w/ him and broke with him, people like Zwingli and so on... Then people (being people) disagreed with Zwingli and others, and broke off, started their own "church" and today we have something like 65,000 different denoms--all claiming that they know the proper interpretation of Scripture.

But... I thought God was not the author of confusion?

Why would God need more than one Church?

Jesus prayed we would be ONE

 

[Clyde 154]

Jesus Christ told us not to:

Matthew 5:17

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

And? YOU MUST BE AN ORTHODOX JEW that practices ALL THE LAW OF MOSES. You offer burnt offerings to the Royal Priesthood of Levites, You circumcise all your male infants on the 8th day...etc., If not why not? Why cherry pick parts of the law to follow? Christ is the "ending of THE LAW." -- Romans 10:4 Read James 2:10

Jesus fulfilled THE LAW "...........Having abolished in His flesh (sacrifice on the cross) the enmity, That is the Law of Commandments contained in ordinances." -- Phil. 2. Enmity: Hostile. The Old Law is Hostile to all gentile nations as it was specific to Israel only. (Deut. 5:1-3)

FYI: there is not one example of anyone worshiping on the 7th day (Sabbath).......before the Law of Moses.....Sabbath Worship was specific for Biblical Israel only. And no man can judge any Christian in food, drink or SABBATH -- Col 2:16

Christians worship on the 1st day of the week (Sunday)....they gather to break bread (communion in remembrance of Jesus Christ until He returns) -- Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:1-2 The Christian Sabbath (Rest) comes after this race called life is finished...its a permanent rest.

None of the law was removed until Jesus Fulfilled the requirements of the Law....not one iota nor tittle was removed until Jesus breathed His last breath and declared, "It is finished....." -- John 19:30. Everything was ACCOMPLISHED/FINISHED. "I have finished the work thou gavest Me to do." -- John 17:4


English Dictonary: Accomplished: Successfuly COMPLETED.


Jesus stated that the law would last until it was fulfilled. "..........I have not come to abolish them but to FULFILL them." -- Matthew 5:17. Now read from another Gospel account......Jesus declared that only by FULFILLING THE OLD LAW.....The law had served its purpose it was but temporary (Jer. 31:31-34) and ".......everything written about Me (in the Old Law....prophecy) in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Ps. must be fulfilled." -- Luke 24:44

All Scripture both Old and New are inspired of God -- 2 Tim. 3:16 In order to declare that parts of the Old Law are still in effect contradicts other scriptures......from the same author, God, God is not the author of confusion -- 1 Cor. 14:33 God never contradicts His own word.

The Old Law was specific to ONE NATION ONLY, as was Sabbath worship ..........Biblical Israel, it was not intended for any Gentile nation -- Deut. 5:1-3, 5:12-15

What happens when you attempt to justify yourself under the Old Law? You have fallen away from the Grace provided by Christ's sacrificial cross. -- Gal. 5:4

Why? Because the old law offered no solution for the remission of sin. -- Romans 3:20.

If you attempt to justify just one part of the Old Law, "If you follow the Law all but even one, you are guilty of ALL...." -- James 2:10

 

[nomadic5]

I bet most of them are on the endangered species list.

I've never seen homosexual acts in animals. But I haven't seen many animal sexual acts at all

I knew of this dog once that humped everything he came in contact with.. people.. their coats and jackets.. just any old thing. So that probably doesn't count.. LOL

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Well, this is why Christ (one reason Christ) founded a Church

He knew human nature better than anyone

and so he knew people would be confused about His New Way.. knew there would have to be priests and bishops and etc... to show the people what the Scriptures mean, especially when they are incomprehensible, as a lot of the OT is..

So while Leviticus 20 says to give capital punishment to practicing homosexuals...

well... we've obviously thrown that out. But sometimes I wonder... Who told anyone to throw it out?

It's hard figuring out what to do with some of the things in the OT... when the Original Church is basically invisible today... (The Vatican being stolen in 1958)

When the Messiah returns, PRACTICING, UNREPENTANT, DEFIANT homosexuals will be executed.

That said, Satan and his demons will be imprisoned for the Thousand Year reign of Christ and the resurrected saints. The devils spirit will be removed from its influence on the human mind.

ALL of the OT Scriptures are FROM God and have value. Thinking some don't vis part of the problem with the counterfeit church and her many daughter churches.

The SABBATH and the Holy Days still set apart God's TRUE Church from the counterfeit.

God's Law concerning clean and unclean meats still applies.

Some laws are just utilitarian for the physical nation of Israel AT THAT TIME, but there are things you can learn from every one of them.

For instance, BURYING HUMAN WASTE, is a great idea with the result of not spreading disease. This may not be an eternal MORAL law, but but believe it or not, this was REVOLUTIONARY in that day, and it was ignored wisdom in the Middle Ages of Europe. This lost knowledge is why that period was called the "Dark Ages."

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Why would God need more than one Church?

He has ONE church.

The problem is with your understanding.

 

[toobfreak]

I've never seen homosexual acts in animals.

Neither have I, but you gotta wonder about anyone actually spending the time researching the matter to figure out how many there are.

Still, it says nothing as to the frequency nor the reasons, or the fact that any species which becomes decidedly homo cannot be long for this world.

I've known a few homos, and they are just like regular people outwardly, except in the bedroom. What I mean is that unless they make a POINT of telling people, showing people, acting and dressing overtly gay, you would never know it. But the thing is that homos don't reproduce; they are an aberration, a deviation, so, self-correcting up to and until so many in a species become homo that they fail to maintain a viable population and die off.

 

[nomadic5]

Neither have I, but you gotta wonder about anyone actually spending the time researching the matter to figure out how many there are.

Still, it says nothing as to the frequency nor the reasons, or the fact that any species which becomes decidedly homo cannot be long for this world.

I've known a few homos, and they are just like regular people outwardly, except in the bedroom. What I mean is that unless they make a POINT of telling people, showing people, acting and dressing overtly gay, you would never know it. But the thing is that homos don't reproduce; they are an aberration, a deviation, so, self-correcting up to and until so many in a species become homo that they fail to maintain a viable population and die off.

I guess the strangest of all sexual practices is

guess?

abstinence. People think you are very ODD to be celibate for over, say... a couple months.

strange world we live in. Relationships are so complicated and often heart breaking and etc, that, well, why bother? (some of us ask)

I don't appreciate the message society is sending these days, that you need sex--and are kind of a freak if you don't have a sex life.

Of course I don't care enough about what those folks say that I'm going to give up celibacy. Not hardly. I haven't found anyone worthy of giving that part of myself to. I mean, Jesus

He's a tough act to follow. HE, unlike mere mortals, accepts us AS we are (not our sins of course, but you know.. the person committing them)! Find a romantic interest who loves you unconditionally like that.. I dare you to find one..

 

[Foxfyre]

Well, this is why Christ (one reason Christ) founded a Church

He knew human nature better than anyone

and so he knew people would be confused about His New Way.. knew there would have to be priests and bishops and etc... to show the people what the Scriptures mean, especially when they are incomprehensible, as a lot of the OT is..

So while Leviticus 20 says to give capital punishment to practicing homosexuals...

well... we've obviously thrown that out. But sometimes I wonder... Who told anyone to throw it out?

It's hard figuring out what to do with some of the things in the OT... when the Original Church is basically invisible today... (The Vatican being stolen in 1958)

The way I see it both Jesus of Nazareth and the Apostle Paul were very big on common sense and that was affirmed by others who implied it without actually saying it.

It isn't hard to study the Bible through the eyes of those who wrote it but it does take a lot more time and effort than reading it with our 21st Century personal experience.

Once we realize how they saw things as they saw them, understood things as they understood them, the limitations of what they knew of the world, how it works, why things are the way they are, we are better equipped to understand that laws that were effective for the conduct of those ancient societies make little sense in our modern world.

For instance no modern Christian would consider it the duty of a man to marry the widow of his deceased brother. But that was ancient Biblical Law.

In Deuteronomy:
5 If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband’s brother shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her. 6 The first son she bears shall carry on the name of the dead brother so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel.

7 However, if a man does not want to marry his brother’s wife, she shall go to the elders at the town gate and say, “My husband’s brother refuses to carry on his brother’s name in Israel. He will not fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to me.” 8 Then the elders of his town shall summon him and talk to him. If he persists in saying, “I do not want to marry her,” 9 his brother’s widow shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, take off one of his sandals, spit in his face and say, “This is what is done to the man who will not build up his brother’s family line.” 10 That man’s line shall be known in Israel as The Family of the Unsandaled.

Jesus didn't teach law though he condoned and supported Law that was beneficial and wise. He taught attitude, behavior, concepts, principles. That's how we know it would be wrong to destroy our enemy including all the women, children, and livestock as God ordered Saul in I Samuel 15. It is passages like that I sometimes wonder if the scribe actually got it right as it seems so out of character for God to make that kind of order. Things like that are on my list to ask about when I can ask face to face.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

For instance no modern Christian would consider it the duty of a man to marry the widow of his deceased brother

Hunter Biden did

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Things like that are on my list to ask about when I can ask face to face

When you stand FACE-TO-FACE with the Judge of all judges, you won't be facing a "man." Believe me, your mouth will be shut and you will be on your knees reviewing your own life. Grilling the CREATOR ain't gonna happen

 

[nomadic5]

The way I see it both Jesus of Nazareth and the Apostle Paul were very big on common sense and that was affirmed by others who implied it without actually saying it.

It isn't hard to study the Bible through the eyes of those who wrote it but it does take a lot more time and effort than reading it with our 21st Century personal experience.

Once we realize how they saw things as they saw them, understood things as they understood them, the limitations of what they knew of the world, how it works, why things are the way they are, we are better equipped to understand that laws that were effective for the conduct of those ancient societies make little sense in our modern world.

For instance no modern Christian would consider it the duty of a man to marry the widow of his deceased brother. But that was ancient Biblical Law.

In Deuteronomy:
5 If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband’s brother shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her. 6 The first son she bears shall carry on the name of the dead brother so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel.

7 However, if a man does not want to marry his brother’s wife, she shall go to the elders at the town gate and say, “My husband’s brother refuses to carry on his brother’s name in Israel. He will not fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to me.” 8 Then the elders of his town shall summon him and talk to him. If he persists in saying, “I do not want to marry her,” 9 his brother’s widow shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, take off one of his sandals, spit in his face and say, “This is what is done to the man who will not build up his brother’s family line.” 10 That man’s line shall be known in Israel as The Family of the Unsandaled.

Jesus didn't teach law though he condoned and supported Law that was beneficial and wise. He taught attitude, behavior, concepts, principles. That's how we know it would be wrong to destroy our enemy including all the women, children, and livestock as God ordered Saul in I Samuel 15. It is passages like that I sometimes wonder if the scribe actually got it right as it seems so out of character for God to make that kind of order. Things like that are on my list to ask about when I can ask face to face.

i think that marrying your brother's wife thing was one of the things Jesus changed.. LOL

He never mentioned that Jewish practice (that we know of).

Anyway, not many listen to The Good Lord these days...

sigh

that's why we see so much misery and mayhem around us

 

[nomadic5]

Neither have I, but you gotta wonder about anyone actually spending the time researching the matter to figure out how many there are.

LOL

one word explains it:

libs

 

[toobfreak]

I guess the strangest of all sexual practices is guess? abstinence.

Really? I would hope not. Pigs grunting in the mud copulate freely. Abstinence and its cousin, celibacy are acts of civilization. Abstinence being an act of wilful discipline while celibacy being an act of moral conviction.

The closer one gets to god, the easier the latter becomes because the soul is fed from within and above.

The farther one gets from god into the animal kingdom, the more dominance and control sex takes on a person's life.

 

[nomadic5]

Really? I would hope not. Pigs grunting in the mud copulate freely. Abstinence and its cousin, celibacy are acts of civilization. Abstinence being an act of wilful discipline while celibacy being an act of moral conviction.

The closer one gets to god, the easier the latter becomes because the soul is fed from within and above.

The farther one gets from god into the animal kingdom, the more dominance and control sex takes on a person's life.

sounds true to me

But yet society keeps sending this message that you have to pick one.. just pick one!

of the sexualities.. fag-ness... straightness... but not celibacy.

 

[Foxfyre]

i think that marrying your brother's wife thing was one of the things Jesus changed.. LOL

He never mentioned that Jewish practice (that we know of).

Anyway, not many listen to The Good Lord these days...

sigh

that's why we see so much misery and mayhem around us

But remember, we only have a tiny fraction of all that Jesus said. But we have the Holy Spirit to inform us of how to understand what the Bible teaches and how to respond to it.

John 21:25 English Standard Version 25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

 

[nomadic5]

But remember, we only have a tiny fraction of all that Jesus said. But we have the Holy Spirit to inform us of how to understand what the Bible teaches and how to respond to it.

John 21:25 English Standard Version 25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

that's why we need a CHURCH

to fill in the empty spaces

 

[Foxfyre]

that's why we need a CHURCH

to fill in the empty spaces

According to Jesus, all believers make up the Church--He is the head, we are the body. But because all believers don't think or believe the same, the Church is fractured into tens of thousands different denominations world wide, each trying to be the closest thing to the true Church. Heck the different factions were forming by the second half of the First Century.

When Constantine established the Roman Catholic Church, it was the dominating denomination for many centuries and accomplished much good. But anyone studying the accurate history of the Crusades, the Inquisition, and other corrupting factors know there was an unChristian side to the institution as well. Thus the Reformation in the 16th Century. Since then both the Catholic Church and all the Protestant denominations that would form have been trying to be the one true Church most perfect in the eyes of God.

And again, I fully expect when I get to Heaven, I'm going to have a really good laugh with a lot of people on how much of all this we ALL got wrong.