Zone1 Is communiusm a US obsession ?

[Rigby5]

socialism is communism with training wheels .

Wrong.
All family units, tribe, religious orders, clubs, etc., are always inherently communist.
There has never been a single country ever that has tried communism however.
Communism can never be done at the federal level because requires decisions to be communal, collective, and cooperative, which can only be then done locally.

 

[Rigby5]

Communism is a political and economic theory and socialism is an economic theory.

Actually communism is just an economic theory as well.
Communism does not tell you if the country has a dictator, a voted in democracy, is a constitutional republic, a monarchy, or a theocracy.

 

[TNHarley]

I do not get why you wrote that "egalitarian ... means control over the masses".
It does not mean that at all.
What "egalitarian" means is equal opportunity.
It means public health care, free tuition, etc.
It does not mean any attempt at wealth redistribution at all.

{...
e·gal·i·tar·i·an
[ēˌɡaləˈterēən]

1. relating to or believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities:
   ...}
   

egalitarian is social equality. Social equality is, among other things, equality in status, power etc. How can that be achieved? Government control of the masses.

 

[Rigby5]

If you get down to it, I don't favor Socialists either, thinking they lead to the same ends, so there is that.

The problem is that 300 years ago anyone could just go to the frontier and have freedom.
With all the land now being claimed to be privately owned, no one can do that any more.
And cottage industries no longer can exist to any degree, because mass production of expensive factories can undersell hand made stuff.
So the problem is those with enough capital to be able to fund a factory, now have a monopoly on the means of production that you need in order to survive.
Which then essentially can be economic slavery.
So to stop that, we need something to counter this monopoly on the necessary life resources.
It can be unions, socialization, etc.
But there has to be a counter to the obvious abuses that pure capitalism always leads to.

 

[TNHarley]

Actually communism is just an economic theory as well.
Communism does not tell you if the country has a dictator, a voted in democracy, is a constitutional republic, a monarchy, or a theocracy.

Wrong.

 

[Mac1958]

Agreed. But the post you responded to was merely challenging the claim that socialism and communism are unrelated. A point you now seem to agree with.

Yet you responded with the tried and true definition diversion, where we attempt to dismiss criticism of "X" by pretending that "X" doesn't really exist, or that the critic doesn't have a clue what "X" really is. I find that kind of evasion tiresome.

Sorry!

 

[Rigby5]

egalitarian is social equality. Social equality is, among other things, equality in status, power etc. How can that be achieved? Government control of the masses.

No, equality of opportunity just means equal access to health care, education, voting rights, etc.
It is NOT equality of outcome.
If someone works twice as hard or is twice as good at their job, they earned the extra money and have a right to it.
The only form of government that wants government control of the masses is capitalism, because it is profit motivated and wants to use methods of concentrating power to make the most profits.
AKA feudalism.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Those Americans who understand the principles upon which this country is built are concerned with ANY political system that poses a threat to individual freedom.

Fascism and Communism are simply two systems most inimical to such individual freedom.

 

[Rigby5]

Wrong.

What do you call the system all tribes use then, where the hunters bring back the results of the hunt to be shared by the whole tribe, and the gatherers do the same?
Obviously all tribes have always been communist.
It is inherent to human nature.
The only problem is how to scale that up to larger units when people then do not know each other?

 

[TNHarley]

No, equality of opportunity just means equal access to health care, education, voting rights, etc.
It is NOT equality of outcome.
If someone works twice as hard or is twice as good at their job, they earned the extra money and have a right to it.
The only form of government that wants government control of the masses is capitalism, because it is profit motivated and wants to use methods of concentrating power to make the most profits.
AKA feudalism.

Wrong.

 

[TNHarley]

What do you call the system all tribes use then, where the hunters bring back the results of the hunt to be shared by the whole tribe, and the gatherers do the same?
Obviously all tribes have always been communist.
It is inherent to human nature.
The only problem is how to scale that up to larger units when people then do not know each other?

Communism is a political theory. It tells exactly how politics should be run.

 

[Mac1958]

I always thought it was a hangover from the McCarthy era hearings. It left a bad legacy.

Could be some of that, psychologically. The macro approach is simply to attack, attack, attack. Whatever works. Machiavellian. That's how they're conditioned.

 

[Rigby5]

Those Americans who understand the principles upon which this country is built are concerned with ANY political system that poses a threat to individual freedom.

Fascism and Communism are simply two systems most inimical to such individual freedom.

I agree fascism is contrary to individual freedom, since it is a coalition of the wealthy elite, in order to maintain the privilege and power of the wealthy elite.
It as an ancient Roman tradition, of the military, aristocracy, and priesthood.
The corporations have replace the priesthood in modern times.

But communism is not at all a "political system".
It does not at all define how leaders are selected, who makes laws, what sort of protections there are, how many parts government will have, or anything at all.
All it implies is that the means of production will be communal, collective, and cooperative, which does imply a local democracy, but it is not explicitly ensured.
Some communes are rather centralized and dictated by a strong leader, especially religious communes.
But most are not and are egalitarian instead.

 

[Rigby5]

Communism is a political theory. It tells exactly how politics should be run.

Totally and completely wrong.
Communism says nothing at all about how leaders are selected, whether the legislature should be bicameral, what the role of the judiciary is, etc.

If you follow history, the revolution in Russia was mostly by communists, socialists, and anarchists, who are all very similar on the concept of maximizing individual rights and freedoms.
And it should be clear that Lenin was not really a Russian communist, but a German agent, sent in to take Russia out of the war.
Between Lenin and Stalin, an absolute capitalist, they killed off all the communists, socialists, and anarchists and implemented pure capitalism, which is feudalism.

 

[Rigby5]

Communism is a political theory. It tells exactly how politics should be run.

The easiest way to prove that is totally wrong is to just quote Marx.

{...
Withering away of the state is a Marxist concept coined by Friedrich Engels referring to the idea that, with the realization of socialism, the state will eventually become obsolete and cease to exist as society will be able to govern itself without the state and its coercive enforcement of the law.
...}

Meaning that politically Marx and Engels really were anarchists, believing that left to themselves, people would naturally cooperate and you would need no police at all.

The worst anyone can claim is that they may have been naive, but certainly did not believe in a dictatorship.
The were the exact opposite of that.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Could be some of that, psychologically. The macro approach is simply to attack, attack, attack. Whatever works. Machiavellian. That's how they're conditioned.

In your world, there is ALWAYS a they.

 

[dblack]

There is a spectrum of political thought.
But unless we can agree on the different levels on that spectrum any discussion is moot.

Hmm.. so you seem to be admitting they are in fact related, just different "levels". Is that right?

 

[dblack]

egalitarian is social equality. Social equality is, among other things, equality in status, power etc. How can that be achieved? Government control of the masses.

And of course social equality won't be achieve that way either. It will just be government deciding who gets the goodies rather than a free society.

 

[Rigby5]

Stalin made up the notion that Fascism was “right wing” and rather that think and question, you accept and parrot

No, the ancient Romans defined fascism, and Mussolini brought it back up before WWII.
Fascism is anti socialist.
It is a dictatorship of the wealth elite, originally the aristocracy, military, and priesthood.
With modern fascism substituting corporations for the priesthood.

 

[Rigby5]

That's the difference, we think

Fascism, like Communism and Socialism is Government Uber Alles

Wrong.
Fascism is the wealthy elite uber alles.
Communism and socialism imply a democracy.