Just Call Him Bruce. "Caitlyn" Doesn't Exist.. American Society is to Blame.

[JOSweetHeart]

To me, a wolf in sheep's clothing will always be a wolf no matter what.

God bless you always!!!

Holly

P.S. I've heard it said that a pig in a dress is still a pig too, but I decided to go with the wolf in sheep's clothing statement instead because it probably wouldn't sound as insulting as the other one.

 

[jameson245]

Caitlyn wants to experience life as a woman. That means a lot of little things you may not even think about. It means wearing that dress, the nail polish, the heels... walking in a place where you know others are going to take note. It means taking a bubble bath and not thinking how embarrassed you might be if anyone knew. it means enjoying the sensation of rubbing lotion on smoothly shaved legs.

No, you probably don't really understand those moments because you are hard wired anothet way. But Bruce wasn't so he became Caitlyn. It wasn't just changing his name, trying to pretend he's something he's not, it's about being the person he always was.

 

[Pop23]

Caitlyn wants to experience life as a woman. That means a lot of little things you may not even think about. It means wearing that dress, the nail polish, the heels... walking in a place where you know others are going to take note. It means taking a bubble bath and not thinking how embarrassed you might be if anyone knew. it means enjoying the sensation of rubbing lotion on smoothly shaved legs.

No, you probably don't really understand those moments because you are hard wired anothet way. But Bruce wasn't so he became Caitlyn. It wasn't just changing his name, trying to pretend he's something he's not, it's about being the person he always was.

No, he can TRY to experience those things as a woman, but without the full experience, he will always just be pretending.

I got no problem with what HE does, but HE will always be a HE.

 

[Silhouette]

I believe patients have to go through all kinds of psychological tests, assessments and theraputic appointments before hormone treatments and surgery are approved.

I think Caitlyn had every right to seek and receive such treatments and wish her well.

But I agree with you that it shouldn't matter that much to anyone outside her circle. In fact, I am rather appalled at how this subject is being forced on our children. Example: watching a kid tv show on station devoted to children, what commercial is shown? My father wants to be a woman. Watch "Becoming Us" (or something like that) My granddaughter had never heard anything like that, and didn't need to now. She has enough to deal with in her own life, is doing fine figuring things out at her own pace. I don't like the media forcing this on her using a kiddie show on what I hoped would be a safer station. Had I not been there to answer her questions.... well, I just don't think it was right.

You didn't mention passing an "x"/"y" anomoly genetic testing...which was the claim from many an LGBT poster here as a legitimizing factor for amputating healthy organs.

Why didn't you mention that as a hurdle in order to qualify for surgery?

The reason why all this matters outside Bruce Jenner's circle is that we as a society insist that our medical doctors follow what's known as "the hippocratic oath". That oath means that they have a deep and compelling committment to "do no harm" knowingly to a patient...any patient...
In fact my own father died/was killed recently by a group of doctors doing just that; against his will even. But that's a more extreme case. The problem is that it can get to that level once an MD here or there begins to soften the rules on "do no harm".

In the case of my father, the doctor tending him had a parent suffering with the same disease my father had underlying his final acute condition. He was sick of taking care of his own parent's needs so he felt it would be better if "my father" (read: my mother, who he was projecting his own angst onto) "didn't suffer anymore". So to assure "my father didn't suffer anymore" he allowed my father to drown in his own fluids, slowly, over a period of four days by witholding simple antibiotics for sepsis. I'd shoot an animal on my ranch out of mercy before I let them drown over four days. In the middle of that time, in desperation, my father roused from sedation, muttered to me and told me he wanted to "wake up" ( he wanted to live.) The doctor tending him who wasnt in the room at the time decided I'd misinterpreted what my father had said and then from that time on kept him more heavily sedated lest he waken and express some other "nonsense".

That is what can happen if MDs suspend the hippocratic oath and begin projecting their own relative moralism into the practice of medicine. This doctor was in a more liberal setting and his administrators got his back. There's another part of the story that's even more sickening, but this is not the place. Long story short, you want your MDs to not be causing harm to patients.

How "transgender surgery" causes harm is that it is fully known and expected that most patients post-op experience lifelong battles with incontinence, since a sphincter in the urinary tract cannot be duplicated. They also report being sexually numb. And from the incontinence, they are more prone to urinary tract infections...which..coming full circle...is what my father got sepsis from. So, the same lack of ethics that chopped up Bruce's healthy organs may be the same lack of ethics that "let's him die for his own good" from sepsis.

See why society has a vested interest in Bruce's situation?

 

[JOSweetHeart]

Caitlyn wants to experience life as a woman. That means a lot of little things you may not even think about. It means wearing that dress, the nail polish, the heels... walking in a place where you know others are going to take note.

For the record, being a female doesn't mean that you have to have a manicure or pedicure done. I am a female who isn't into either one of them things.

God bless you always!!!

Holly

P.S. I am not big on makeup, jewelry, or shopping either.

 

[Silhouette]

For the record, being a female doesn't mean that you have to have a manicure or pedicure done. I am a female who isn't into either one of them things.

God bless you always!!!

Holly

P.S. I am not big on makeup, jewelry, or shopping either.

Then you are simply a man trapped in a woman's body. There are no gray areas.

^^"This message brought to you by today's American Psychological Association" ^^

vv I was being sarcastic Holly vv

 

[JOSweetHeart]

^^^ No I am not and the reason why I am not is because I have no issue with having what makes me a female.

God bless you always!!!

Holly

P.S. One of my grandmothers, may they both rest in peace, was the same way. She wasn't into shopping or jewelry either. If I remember right, she did wear a little bit of lipstick every now and then though.

 

[Silhouette]

Just kidding Holly. That was my point. They're all about "shades of gray" but not when it comes to allowable variances within a normal male or female mode of being or expression. They then become rigid as hell when it comes to "T" and insist that if a type-A supermale like Jenner goes haywire and wants to be "all female" suddenly, then it's just him "being born in the wrong body". They are all over the place when it comes to a consistent stance. But then again, crazy people go to great lengths to preserve their denial systems and often flip flop and don't make any consistent sense at all.

Too bad we let them take over their diagnostic machine in the 1970s...

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

and why did he wait so long? 65? and now he wants to be a woman?

He didn't want to have to deal with menopause.

 

[Silhouette]

and why did he wait so long? 65? and now he wants to be a woman?

He didn't want to have to deal with menopause.

 

[Rexx Taylor]

and why did he wait so long? 65? and now he wants to be a woman?

He didn't want to have to deal with menopause.

and like i mentioned, at 65, there really isnt much there to chop off anyway.

 

[Silhouette]

But what about the ethical considerations of amputation of healthy tissue? Consider the following conversation from last page and how what Bruce had done to himself, with help/coercion from "ethical" doctors and how society has a vested interest in stopping the butchery..

I believe patients have to go through all kinds of psychological tests, assessments and theraputic appointments before hormone treatments and surgery are approved.

I think Caitlyn had every right to seek and receive such treatments and wish her well.

But I agree with you that it shouldn't matter that much to anyone outside her circle....

You didn't mention passing an "x"/"y" anomoly genetic testing...which was the claim from many an LGBT poster here as a legitimizing factor for amputating healthy organs.

Why didn't you mention that as a hurdle in order to qualify for surgery?

The reason why all this matters outside Bruce Jenner's circle is that we as a society insist that our medical doctors follow what's known as "the hippocratic oath". That oath means that they have a deep and compelling committment to "do no harm" knowingly to a patient...any patient...
In fact my own father died/was killed recently by a group of doctors doing just that; against his will even. But that's a more extreme case. The problem is that it can get to that level once an MD here or there begins to soften the rules on "do no harm".

In the case of my father, the doctor tending him had a parent suffering with the same disease my father had underlying his final acute condition. He was sick of taking care of his own parent's needs so he felt it would be better if "my father" (read: my mother, who he was projecting his own angst onto) "didn't suffer anymore". So to assure "my father didn't suffer anymore" he allowed my father to drown in his own fluids, slowly, over a period of four days by witholding simple antibiotics for sepsis. I'd shoot an animal on my ranch out of mercy before I let them drown over four days. In the middle of that time, in desperation, my father roused from sedation, muttered to me and told me he wanted to "wake up" ( he wanted to live.) The doctor tending him who wasnt in the room at the time decided I'd misinterpreted what my father had said and then from that time on kept him more heavily sedated lest he waken and express some other "nonsense".

That is what can happen if MDs suspend the hippocratic oath and begin projecting their own relative moralism into the practice of medicine. This doctor was in a more liberal setting and his administrators got his back. There's another part of the story that's even more sickening, but this is not the place. Long story short, you want your MDs to not be causing harm to patients.

How "transgender surgery" causes harm is that it is fully known and expected that most patients post-op experience lifelong battles with incontinence, since a sphincter in the urinary tract cannot be duplicated. They also report being sexually numb. And from the incontinence, they are more prone to urinary tract infections...which..coming full circle...is what my father got sepsis from. So, the same lack of ethics that chopped up Bruce's healthy organs may be the same lack of ethics that "let's him die for his own good" from sepsis.

See why society has a vested interest in Bruce's situation?

 

[jameson245]

I believe patients have to go through all kinds of psychological tests, assessments and theraputic appointments before hormone treatments and surgery are approved.

I think Caitlyn had every right to seek and receive such treatments and wish her well.

But I agree with you that it shouldn't matter that much to anyone outside her circle. In fact, I am rather appalled at how this subject is being forced on our children. Example: watching a kid tv show on station devoted to children, what commercial is shown? My father wants to be a woman. Watch "Becoming Us" (or something like that) My granddaughter had never heard anything like that, and didn't need to now. She has enough to deal with in her own life, is doing fine figuring things out at her own pace. I don't like the media forcing this on her using a kiddie show on what I hoped would be a safer station. Had I not been there to answer her questions.... well, I just don't think it was right.

You didn't mention passing an "x"/"y" anomoly genetic testing...which was the claim from many an LGBT poster here as a legitimizing factor for amputating healthy organs.

Why didn't you mention that as a hurdle in order to qualify for surgery?

The reason why all this matters outside Bruce Jenner's circle is that we as a society insist that our medical doctors follow what's known as "the hippocratic oath". That oath means that they have a deep and compelling committment to "do no harm" knowingly to a patient...any patient...
In fact my own father died/was killed recently by a group of doctors doing just that; against his will even. But that's a more extreme case. The problem is that it can get to that level once an MD here or there begins to soften the rules on "do no harm".

In the case of my father, the doctor tending him had a parent suffering with the same disease my father had underlying his final acute condition. He was sick of taking care of his own parent's needs so he felt it would be better if "my father" (read: my mother, who he was projecting his own angst onto) "didn't suffer anymore". So to assure "my father didn't suffer anymore" he allowed my father to drown in his own fluids, slowly, over a period of four days by witholding simple antibiotics for sepsis. I'd shoot an animal on my ranch out of mercy before I let them drown over four days. In the middle of that time, in desperation, my father roused from sedation, muttered to me and told me he wanted to "wake up" ( he wanted to live.) The doctor tending him who wasnt in the room at the time decided I'd misinterpreted what my father had said and then from that time on kept him more heavily sedated lest he waken and express some other "nonsense".

That is what can happen if MDs suspend the hippocratic oath and begin projecting their own relative moralism into the practice of medicine. This doctor was in a more liberal setting and his administrators got his back. There's another part of the story that's even more sickening, but this is not the place. Long story short, you want your MDs to not be causing harm to patients.

How "transgender surgery" causes harm is that it is fully known and expected that most patients post-op experience lifelong battles with incontinence, since a sphincter in the urinary tract cannot be duplicated. They also report being sexually numb. And from the incontinence, they are more prone to urinary tract infections...which..coming full circle...is what my father got sepsis from. So, the same lack of ethics that chopped up Bruce's healthy organs may be the same lack of ethics that "let's him die for his own good" from sepsis.

See why society has a vested interest in Bruce's situation?

Sorry for your loss. It's very hard when doctors want to give up and you know they shoudn't have.

I honestly don't know but why couldn't the sphincter be simply saved and used in the new genitalia. I mean, they can transplant aheart, kidneys, lungss. Why not a sphincter?

But let's say you're right. If Caitlyn was willing to live with that, that's her choice.

 

[Silhouette]

Sorry for your loss. It's very hard when doctors want to give up and you know they shoudn't have.

I honestly don't know but why couldn't the sphincter be simply saved and used in the new genitalia. I mean, they can transplant aheart, kidneys, lungss. Why not a sphincter?

But let's say you're right. If Caitlyn was willing to live with that, that's her choice.

Not unless Bruce performed the amptuation himself. It's when MDs participate that society MUST get involved in the ethical-legality of it. And for all the reasons I stated.

My father's condition could have immediately been remedied and he returned to his regular routines with the administration of simple IV antibiotics, which he told me he wanted in order to "wake up". So it was murder actually, not "giving up". In spite of his being in his 80s, his strong and fit body struggled for four days against a sepsis invasion before he finally drowned in his own lung fluids. Enjoy your neo-ethics in licensed MDs, America! I still nearly vomit from the horror of imagining what being drugged so you can't talk or scream out that you want to live so that those who should be most trusted can watch you slowly drown to death without even the ability to voice an opposition or to cry out.

Later, when Bruce wakes up from his 15-minutes of fame spell and wonders why MDs helped him hack off his genitals and urinary sphincter, he will be in the same ethical hell my father found himself. A patient both in his right mind and not in his right mind needs an ethical doctor to protect him.

 

[jameson245]

I am also not big on makeup and for me heels are long gone. The sexy dresses are in the back of the closet and my favorite jeans are close to wearing out.
But I have, at times, really enjoyed all those moments when I knew I looked good and could make an entrance. Rarely, I still do.
And I wouldn't deny anyone that experience if it made their life happier.

I don't, really don't, understand why some take such issue with this very personal decision made by someone you most likely don't know and will never meet.
It isn't hurting you, isn't being paid for by tax dollars. But I will say again, I don't think it needs to be all over the tv. Our children don't need that pushed on them.

 

[jameson245]

Sorry for your loss. It's very hard when doctors want to give up and you know they shoudn't have.

I honestly don't know but why couldn't the sphincter be simply saved and used in the new genitalia. I mean, they can transplant aheart, kidneys, lungss. Why not a sphincter?

But let's say you're right. If Caitlyn was willing to live with that, that's her choice.

Not unless Bruce performed the amptuation himself. It's when MDs participate that society MUST get involved in the ethical-legality of it. And for all the reasons I stated.

My father's condition could have immediately been remedied and he returned to his regular routines with the administration of simple IV antibiotics, which he told me he wanted in order to "wake up". So it was murder actually, not "giving up".

My true story
Last year someone very close to me had an accident. Local hospital was ready to give him a room and plenty of painkillers, if you get my drift. The person couldn't speak for themselves but I personally fought and got patient moved to a major hospital where one brave soul agreed to operate. I stayed with that person 24/7 for weeks until they had recovered enough to be on their own. (jaws wired shut, someone had to stay close in case patient vomited. Had to be ready to cut the wires in an instant)

There is something wrong when insurance companies dictate treatments and doctors let people die when a simple prescription or treatment could save a life. Again, I am sorry for your loss.

 

[Silhouette]

He had insurance and it easily would've covered any treatment he so desired. And money up the wazoo that his wife now sits on. Price was not even part of the equation. I can buy IV antibiotics for my livestock online at about $20 a dose. They could've treated him with two doses of that the first night and had him on his feet the next day with oral meds to take home. But that's not the route they chose to take. He would've lived then. And for various reasons that was "not the plan"..

I am also not big on makeup and for me heels are long gone. The sexy dresses are in the back of the closet and my favorite jeans are close to wearing out.
But I have, at times, really enjoyed all those moments when I knew I looked good and could make an entrance. Rarely, I still do.
And I wouldn't deny anyone that experience if it made their life happier....I don't, really don't, understand why some take such issue with this very personal decision made by someone you most likely don't know and will never meet.
It isn't hurting you, isn't being paid for by tax dollars. But I will say again, I don't think it needs to be all over the tv. Our children don't need that pushed on them.

If you cannot see the difference between a guy wanting to access the normal range of his personality to include non supermale expectations and having his genitals amputated, you don't belong in this conversation. I just explained to you in excruciating detail why society belongs in this conversation: medical ethics. Wearing a dress now and then is a temporary state, if that's how you want to work through your issues of being required to be "super male" by the warped society we live in (see the OP). But you can put your dress back in the back of the closet when you want to wear your jeans again. Bruce can't put his dick back on when he wakes up and realizes what the genesis of all this was with his own personality.

See?

 

[jameson245]

Caitlyn took 65 years to decide surgery was right for her. I think that trumps your 2 weeks. I really don't see either of us changing our position so will agree to disagree nicely and leave this subject behind. Thanks for our time together, it was educational.

 

[Synthaholic]

 

[Silhouette]

Caitlyn took 65 years to decide surgery was right for her. I think that trumps your 2 weeks. I really don't see either of us changing our position so will agree to disagree nicely and leave this subject behind. Thanks for our time together, it was educational.

Who is "her" you keep referring to? We're talking about Bruce Jenner, a man.