Keeping guns from criminals - liberals, what is your plan?

[Ray From Cleveland]

I don't support those laws. But if you're gonna sell a firearm, i suggest you do your due diligence. If the purchaser turns out to be a Felon, you have to be held accountable.

Again...do you have to do due dilligence before you sell your car? To make sure the guy you are selling it to isn't a convicted drunk driver?

Again, do you have to do due dilligence before you sell your computer? To make sure the guy you are selling it to isn't a convicted child porn guy like Jared, who are banned from ever touching a computer again.

Are either of those on you?

Same for guns....the criminal knows he is breaking the law, catch him and arrest him. If you have an actual criminal gun dealer, knowingly selling to criminals in large quantities...catch him and arrest him....spend your manpower on him, not Joe Citizen.

Like i said, you can go on spinning it anyway you like, but you sell a firearm to a Felon, you have to accept responsibility and pay the piper.

Not spinning it...telling the truth. Guns are legal products and we are not cops. Making us do the work of cops to sell a legal product is insane. Catch the felon who buys the gun....they know they can't own it or carry it....you can arrest them already without licensing gun owners...

And as Illinois shows...licensing does absolutely nothing to stop criminals from getting guns....because none of the shooters in Chicago....and we have had another bloody weekend, have Firearm Owner Identification CArds...do they?

Apart from an extension of an inadequate body part ...what useful function does a gun have...is shooting bullets at cans a form of entertainment, an education for a child...if you remove all guns children will stop dying because of the careless actions of a few....agreed, only a few...but children will live ...children who would otherwise die....I am curious.... can you name something other than guns that have no function other than killing....that cause the deaths of good people....every day...not saying such a product does not exist...but, can't think of anything at the moment...cars (function), knives (function), swimming pools (function), bicycles (function)..automatically, you will say 'protection'...self defense..well, if there are no guns...man up and find a way to protect yourself.., pretend you're Monty Clift fighting Ernie Borgnine in From Here to Eternity...have some guts ...or, as most trembling cowards without a gun would do....run......there is risk in life embrace it...

My uncle is alive because he carries a gun. I am alive because I had a gun.

Explain, in detail, how my wife's best friend--all 4'5" and 85lbs of her--should protect herself from a 6'2", 230lb attacker. Be specific. (Her preferred method is a Smith & Wesson Detective Special.)

Before we passed our CCW laws here in Ohio, it was a hot topic for our blogs.

When questioned, a blogger asked why I was so behind CCW's. I explained that my mother is elderly and insists on taking walks to the store or church, and having CCW's offer her protection.

So he wrote back and asked that if we passed the law, would my elderly mother carry a gun with her? To that I responded "No she wouldn't, but the criminal doesn't know that."

These anti-gun people don't realize that they too have extra protection against criminals because of those of us that do carry firearms.

 

[rightwinger]

Like all preventive measures, they are not 100% effective. Seat belts don't save all lives

However, being able to identify a gun from a bullet found at the scene of a crime will be a huge criminal enforcement tool

And how are you going to do that when they buy illegal guns?

You still aren't clicking with the part that criminals don't follow the law, are you?

You don't solve every crime. You assume all murders happen with untraceable guns.....they don't

And if the killer killed someone they knew, current forensic and detective techniques get the job done. Just watch any of the documentary shows on police and forensic work. It doesn't take registering all non criminals or licensing all non criminals to find the few people who are actually guilty of a crime....

It would also be unConstitutional...since you are essentially violating the "innocent until proven guilty" by assuming everyone is guilty eventually so we might as well keep an eye on everyone.....

No bigger an inconvenience than me registering my car

Probably true. Do you have a comment on his post though?

That was my comment

There is nothing unconstitutional about gun registration. The second amendment encourages it

 

[M14 Shooter]

Nothing here changes the fact that federal background check laws offer no exception for gun shows.
This eliminates the possibility of there being a gun show loophole.
You choose to be wrong.

My links say it's about PRIVATE SELLERS AT GUNSHOWS and else where. DUH.

This has nothing to do with background checks as prescribed by federal law.
How is there a loophole in the federal law?

"Private sellers" duh...

Which, again, has nothing to do with the federal laws regarding background checks.
The fact that you, as an individual, can buy/sell from/to another individual w/o running a background check is not a :"loophole" in the federal law, as the fact that you can do so in no way allows you to get around the federal law - and it CERTAINLY does not have anything specifically to do with gun shows.
You are utterly and completely ignorant of the issue here; this derives from the fact that you only possess the ability to parrot others.

"Private sellers" , AT GUNSHOWS, DINGBAT!!!! LOOPHOLE!!! Ay caramba....

The fact that you, as an individual, can buy/sell from/to another individual w/o running a background check is not a :"loophole" in the federal law.
You either do not understand this, or you are lying to yourself.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I'd say the simple answer is the same way we keep dynamite from criminals.

Look! Another IN post utterly devoid of substance.

 

[rightwinger]

My links say it's about PRIVATE SELLERS AT GUNSHOWS and else where. DUH.

This has nothing to do with background checks as prescribed by federal law.
How is there a loophole in the federal law?

"Private sellers" duh...

Which, again, has nothing to do with the federal laws regarding background checks.
The fact that you, as an individual, can buy/sell from/to another individual w/o running a background check is not a :"loophole" in the federal law, as the fact that you can do so in no way allows you to get around the federal law - and it CERTAINLY does not have anything specifically to do with gun shows.
You are utterly and completely ignorant of the issue here; this derives from the fact that you only possess the ability to parrot others.

"Private sellers" , AT GUNSHOWS, DINGBAT!!!! LOOPHOLE!!! Ay caramba....

The fact that you, as an individual, can buy/sell from/to another individual w/o running a background check is not a :"loophole" in the federal law.
You either do not understand this, or you are lying to yourself.

Seems like a huge loophole that allows you to sell your gun to a criminal

 

[2aguy]

Selling one or more guns to a neighbor is not the problem, and shouldn't be the focus.....make it a fine, say....1000 dollars a gun, no misdeneanor and no felony.....to teach him to check next time. Maybe...I'll have to think about the way the anti gun extremists could exploit that policy.

Describe, in detail and with links to sources, EXACTLY how I could "check" whether my neighbor is forbidden to own a gun. Be specific.

You can't. and since we aren't cops we shouldn't have to......the criminal already knows that he can't own the gun...so if he commits a crime with it or is simply caught with it...arrest him. i merely pointed out in that post that no law abiding citizen should face a serious crime for selling a legal product...at most, if they knew they were selling to a criminal on a one off sale, they should get fined...no criminal judgment. any real arms trafficker can already be caught the old fashioned way, with police work.

 

[2aguy]

Great idea! Case solved!

Hey, wait, what if criminals just bought an illegal gun? Wish I'd thought of that before. Oh wait, I did, it was in my OP post...

All this would be easier if criminals just followed the law, wouldn't it, comrade big guy?

Like all preventive measures, they are not 100% effective. Seat belts don't save all lives

However, being able to identify a gun from a bullet found at the scene of a crime will be a huge criminal enforcement tool

And how are you going to do that when they buy illegal guns?

You still aren't clicking with the part that criminals don't follow the law, are you?

You don't solve every crime. You assume all murders happen with untraceable guns.....they don't

And if the killer killed someone they knew, current forensic and detective techniques get the job done. Just watch any of the documentary shows on police and forensic work. It doesn't take registering all non criminals or licensing all non criminals to find the few people who are actually guilty of a crime....

It would also be unConstitutional...since you are essentially violating the "innocent until proven guilty" by assuming everyone is guilty eventually so we might as well keep an eye on everyone.....

No bigger an inconvenience than me registering my car

yes it is. Guns are a Right, cars are not.

 

[2aguy]

Selling one or more guns to a neighbor is not the problem, and shouldn't be the focus.....make it a fine, say....1000 dollars a gun, no misdeneanor and no felony.....to teach him to check next time. Maybe...I'll have to think about the way the anti gun extremists could exploit that policy.

Describe, in detail and with links to sources, EXACTLY how I could "check" whether my neighbor is forbidden to own a gun. Be specific.

the same way criminals get around background checks at licensed gun owners...straw purchasers or stealing the guns.....would get around any mandated, universal background check. the anti gun extremists want you to drag the buyer into a gun store to do a background check...increasing the difficulty of selling a legal product......but the criminal could simply send the straw buyer there as well...thus defeating the new universal background check.

 

[2aguy]

This has nothing to do with background checks as prescribed by federal law.
How is there a loophole in the federal law?

"Private sellers" duh...

Which, again, has nothing to do with the federal laws regarding background checks.
The fact that you, as an individual, can buy/sell from/to another individual w/o running a background check is not a :"loophole" in the federal law, as the fact that you can do so in no way allows you to get around the federal law - and it CERTAINLY does not have anything specifically to do with gun shows.
You are utterly and completely ignorant of the issue here; this derives from the fact that you only possess the ability to parrot others.

"Private sellers" , AT GUNSHOWS, DINGBAT!!!! LOOPHOLE!!! Ay caramba....

The fact that you, as an individual, can buy/sell from/to another individual w/o running a background check is not a :"loophole" in the federal law.
You either do not understand this, or you are lying to yourself.

Seems like a huge loophole that allows you to sell your gun to a criminal

It is a legal product....the criminal who buys the gun can already be arrested without turning regular citizens into cops.

 

[rightwinger]

Like all preventive measures, they are not 100% effective. Seat belts don't save all lives

However, being able to identify a gun from a bullet found at the scene of a crime will be a huge criminal enforcement tool

And how are you going to do that when they buy illegal guns?

You still aren't clicking with the part that criminals don't follow the law, are you?

You don't solve every crime. You assume all murders happen with untraceable guns.....they don't

And if the killer killed someone they knew, current forensic and detective techniques get the job done. Just watch any of the documentary shows on police and forensic work. It doesn't take registering all non criminals or licensing all non criminals to find the few people who are actually guilty of a crime....

It would also be unConstitutional...since you are essentially violating the "innocent until proven guilty" by assuming everyone is guilty eventually so we might as well keep an eye on everyone.....

No bigger an inconvenience than me registering my car

yes it is. Guns are a Right, cars are not.

Nothing about registration interferes with your gun rights

 

[2aguy]

Like all preventive measures, they are not 100% effective. Seat belts don't save all lives

However, being able to identify a gun from a bullet found at the scene of a crime will be a huge criminal enforcement tool

It already is. Why turn it into a tool to facilitate rounding up all of the legally owned weapons that will never leave a bullet at the scene of a crime unless your agenda is to create a national firearms registry in order to grab them all up at some later date?

More paranoia from gun nuts

I register my car and have yet to have one confiscated. However, if my car is involved in a hit and run...it is traceable back to me

Are there paint chips and tire impressions stored in a data base somewhere? More importantly, is there a Constitutional Amendment saying your right to own and drive a car shall not be infringed?

There is nothing in the second amendment discouraging gun registration or licensing of gun owners.....consider it to being part of a well regulated militia

Sure, so can government require us to register to belong to a religion or to speak freely? Can they charge us fees for protection from illegal search and seizure? Does the Bill of Rights actually exist at all? It's really a bill of suggestions, don't you think? Maybe suggestion is a strong word, maybe it's a Bill of Thoughts, take them for what they are...

We need to be required to register computers and all other electronic devices....since normal citizens aren't criminals until they use their computer for child porn or identity theft.........so all electronics need to be licensed, and all citizens need to pass background checks before they cut electronic devices.......in case they have been convicted of computer related crimes......

and before you lend you electronic devise to anyone...you need to do a background check......

and of course...mandatory training classes for the use of electronic devices to make sure people know that it is illegal to commit computer crimes...

and before you get the electronic devise....you need to be licensed.....just so we know you know how to operate the computer without committing crimes with it..

 

[2aguy]

And how are you going to do that when they buy illegal guns?

You still aren't clicking with the part that criminals don't follow the law, are you?

You don't solve every crime. You assume all murders happen with untraceable guns.....they don't

And if the killer killed someone they knew, current forensic and detective techniques get the job done. Just watch any of the documentary shows on police and forensic work. It doesn't take registering all non criminals or licensing all non criminals to find the few people who are actually guilty of a crime....

It would also be unConstitutional...since you are essentially violating the "innocent until proven guilty" by assuming everyone is guilty eventually so we might as well keep an eye on everyone.....

No bigger an inconvenience than me registering my car

yes it is. Guns are a Right, cars are not.

Nothing about registration interferes with your gun rights

yes it does...it costs money...to process the paperwork....and as we found out when the democrats used poll taxes to deny blacks their right to vote...taxes and fees used to deny access to a right are unconstitutional......and on top of that...I think it also violates the 5th Amendment...the innocent until proven guilty concept since the whole purpose of licensing gun owners assumes they are a criminal......and need to be monitored.

 

[rightwinger]

You don't solve every crime. You assume all murders happen with untraceable guns.....they don't

And if the killer killed someone they knew, current forensic and detective techniques get the job done. Just watch any of the documentary shows on police and forensic work. It doesn't take registering all non criminals or licensing all non criminals to find the few people who are actually guilty of a crime....

It would also be unConstitutional...since you are essentially violating the "innocent until proven guilty" by assuming everyone is guilty eventually so we might as well keep an eye on everyone.....

No bigger an inconvenience than me registering my car

yes it is. Guns are a Right, cars are not.

Nothing about registration interferes with your gun rights

yes it does...it costs money...to process the paperwork....and as we found out when the democrats used poll taxes to deny blacks their right to vote...taxes and fees used to deny access to a right are unconstitutional......and on top of that...I think it also violates the 5th Amendment...the innocent until proven guilty concept since the whole purpose of licensing gun owners assumes they are a criminal......and need to be monitored.

Part of being a citizen
Buy a gun.....register it

Don't whine about how hard it is

Nobody is accusing you of a crime any more than they accuse you of a crime when you register your car

 

[Jarlaxle]

Nothing about registration interferes with your gun rights

No matter how many times you regurgitate that, it is still a lie.

 

[2aguy]

And if the killer killed someone they knew, current forensic and detective techniques get the job done. Just watch any of the documentary shows on police and forensic work. It doesn't take registering all non criminals or licensing all non criminals to find the few people who are actually guilty of a crime....

It would also be unConstitutional...since you are essentially violating the "innocent until proven guilty" by assuming everyone is guilty eventually so we might as well keep an eye on everyone.....

No bigger an inconvenience than me registering my car

yes it is. Guns are a Right, cars are not.

Nothing about registration interferes with your gun rights

yes it does...it costs money...to process the paperwork....and as we found out when the democrats used poll taxes to deny blacks their right to vote...taxes and fees used to deny access to a right are unconstitutional......and on top of that...I think it also violates the 5th Amendment...the innocent until proven guilty concept since the whole purpose of licensing gun owners assumes they are a criminal......and need to be monitored.

Part of being a citizen
Buy a gun.....register it

Don't whine about how hard it is

Nobody is accusing you of a crime any more than they accuse you of a crime when you register your car

Yes...and that is what they told blacks when they tried to vote....

Pay the tax to vote, take the literacy test...it is part of being a citizen....don't whine about how you are poor and can't pay the tax or that you can't pass the literacy test.......

don't whine about it....

and yes, guns are different in that they are a Right, and that history has shown that registration lists are used to confiscate guns....France, Brtiatain, Germany, Australia.....

so no...no registration, no licensing...they are un Constitutional...

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

And if the killer killed someone they knew, current forensic and detective techniques get the job done. Just watch any of the documentary shows on police and forensic work. It doesn't take registering all non criminals or licensing all non criminals to find the few people who are actually guilty of a crime....

It would also be unConstitutional...since you are essentially violating the "innocent until proven guilty" by assuming everyone is guilty eventually so we might as well keep an eye on everyone.....

No bigger an inconvenience than me registering my car

yes it is. Guns are a Right, cars are not.

Nothing about registration interferes with your gun rights

yes it does...it costs money...to process the paperwork....and as we found out when the democrats used poll taxes to deny blacks their right to vote...taxes and fees used to deny access to a right are unconstitutional......and on top of that...I think it also violates the 5th Amendment...the innocent until proven guilty concept since the whole purpose of licensing gun owners assumes they are a criminal......and need to be monitored.

Part of being a citizen
Buy a gun.....register it

Don't whine about how hard it is

Nobody is accusing you of a crime any more than they accuse you of a crime when you register your car

However registering a car accomplishes several things: First and most important is identification in the event your car is stolen. It helps police identify you and your car. Registration is proof that you are the legitimate owner of the car in the event you wish to sell it.

Gun registration doesn't accomplish a thing. It won't prevent one person who wants a gun from getting one, and that's the only reason to have your gun registered.

 

[Wry Catcher]

101 California Street shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sandy Hook Parents Sue Bushmaster: You Sold ‘Weapon of Choice’ for Mass Murderers

Federal Assault Weapons Ban - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why Gun Control Groups Have Moved Away from an Assault Weapons Ban

There is more too the story of the Brady Bill than those partisans put forth and the idiots on the right echo.

You know what none of those do? Tell us how you are going to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. All you're proposing is limiting our ability to defend ourselves. Criminals love these laws, it makes them a lot safer

You're either stupid, or a damn liar. I suspect both.

Then why can't you show where any of the links present actual proposals to get guns out of the hands of criminals? All you can make are empty statements

Only assholes and abject fools continue to ask this same stupid question.

You've proven to be both.

Assholes and fools continue to post claims that millions of times a year a gun is used by a good guy to stop a bad thing from happening. Yet, no credible evidence is ever posted to prove the truth of thus claim.

It has been posted, many times. You ignore it.

I've made a very simple suggestion which you cannot refute, you cannot prove that licensing won't reduce the number of guns in the hands of those who should not have them in their possession.

You cannot prove that it will do so.

No proof has been posted that millions of times a year a gun is used by a good guy to stop a bad guy from doing something bad. It's been alleged without evidence and eched by others.

An open mind is all that is required to understand the premise of licensing. If you had read my posts you would know I've never claimed licensing would be a panacea, it is one method which may reduce gun violence.

 

[Wry Catcher]

No bigger an inconvenience than me registering my car

yes it is. Guns are a Right, cars are not.

Nothing about registration interferes with your gun rights

yes it does...it costs money...to process the paperwork....and as we found out when the democrats used poll taxes to deny blacks their right to vote...taxes and fees used to deny access to a right are unconstitutional......and on top of that...I think it also violates the 5th Amendment...the innocent until proven guilty concept since the whole purpose of licensing gun owners assumes they are a criminal......and need to be monitored.

Part of being a citizen
Buy a gun.....register it

Don't whine about how hard it is

Nobody is accusing you of a crime any more than they accuse you of a crime when you register your car

However registering a car accomplishes several things: First and most important is identification in the event your car is stolen. It helps police identify you and your car. Registration is proof that you are the legitimate owner of the car in the event you wish to sell it.

Gun registration doesn't accomplish a thing. It won't prevent one person who wants a gun from getting one, and that's the only reason to have your gun registered.

Gun registration will not infringe on your right, unless of course you're a criminal.

 

[IsaacNewton]

I'd say the simple answer is the same way we keep dynamite from criminals.

Look! Another IN post utterly devoid of substance.

Explain how criminals don't have access to C4 and dynamite.

Devoid of substance? You have the depth of a mud puddle.

 

[2aguy]

You know what none of those do? Tell us how you are going to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. All you're proposing is limiting our ability to defend ourselves. Criminals love these laws, it makes them a lot safer

You're either stupid, or a damn liar. I suspect both.

Then why can't you show where any of the links present actual proposals to get guns out of the hands of criminals? All you can make are empty statements

Only assholes and abject fools continue to ask this same stupid question.

You've proven to be both.

Assholes and fools continue to post claims that millions of times a year a gun is used by a good guy to stop a bad thing from happening. Yet, no credible evidence is ever posted to prove the truth of thus claim.

It has been posted, many times. You ignore it.

I've made a very simple suggestion which you cannot refute, you cannot prove that licensing won't reduce the number of guns in the hands of those who should not have them in their possession.

You cannot prove that it will do so.

No proof has been posted that millions of times a year a gun is used by a good guy to stop a bad guy from doing something bad. It's been alleged without evidence and eched by others.

An open mind is all that is required to understand the premise of licensing. If you had read my posts you would know I've never claimed licensing would be a panacea, it is one method which may reduce gun violence.

Here are actual studies...that you simply deny them does not make them non-existent.....

I just averaged the studies......which were conducted by different researchers, from both private and public researchers, over a period of 40 years looking specifically at guns and self defense....the name of the researcher is first, then the year then the number of times they determined guns were used for self defense......notice how many of them there are and how many of them were done by gun grabbers like the clinton Justice Dept. and the obama CDC

And these aren't all of the studies either...there are more...and they support the ones below.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, military)
DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, military)
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, military)
Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops, military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....