CDZ Let's run a little experiment. Topic: Paying for College

[Cardinal Carminative]

Why are universities holding knowledge hostage? Knowledge should be free.

That sounds very much like a subset of Communism. I believe it is often said that that is how the Chinese view knowledge and why IP is so historically difficult to protect in their society, it is usually not accepted as such.

I don't know how true that characterization is or if it is a myth.

There's no reason to think that knowledge should be without value to those who have it transferring to those who want it. Just as any good and service.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

From each according to their abilities to each according to their needs. Sounds like a plan!

That's an oversimplification. At the extremes that comparison is apt, but I'm not talking at the extremes. In fact it is little more than what most western democracies already do. America tends to struggle against this but even we do it.

Texas pulls itself off the main US grid and leaves themselves vulnerable to massive power outages if they were to get a freak ice storm. And when that actually DOES happen the US still rallies to get help to Texas. The Blue states often pay more in federal taxes than they get from federal funds which means they fund the "taker" (often red) states.

 

[Mac-7]

The purpose of this sociological experiment is to see if Americans are capable of thinking, collaborating and innovating together any more.

Let's start with this particular problem: College has become incredibly expensive and it's saddling students with ridiculous debt from Day One as they enter the workforce. So, where are we right now on this issue?

• Some want to address this by simply wiping out current college debt, or decreasing it to some degree, with taxpayer money
• Some are annoyed by this, such as parents (*ahem*) and students who have paid their way by the rules and will be cheated

So what I'm going to do is toss out a few "IWIWC's", "I wonder if we could...", and let's see if we could get anywhere. Important note: I'm sure we know that this is how businesses often address problems, by tossing out ideas from all directions, massaging them, changing them, tweaking them, throwing some of them out. And, just as importantly, when it sees a problem with an idea, it doesn't just give up and dismiss the whole thing So, rather than running with our normal impulse to apply band-aids and not think things through:

• I wonder if we could leverage American Capitalism to effectively address this
• I wonder if we could have employers engaged in the process, with the value to them being better and deeper talent pools
• I wonder if we could incorporate some kind of tax incentives to participate in the process
• I wonder if we could find a way to attach junior colleges to this process, for those professions that don't need a full four year education
• I wonder if we could utilize employer groups and/or college groups to somehow organize this by industry or subject matter area
• I wonder if we could provide protection to employers who have educated employees, just to have the employees leave
• I wonder if we could provide protection to employees so that the employer cannot go too far with expectations after their investment
• I wonder if we could find a way to keep the kids learning post-employment to improve their skills by incentivizing their employers

Okay, there ya go. After I typed the first line, the rest came to me as I was typing. Tiny little ideas that mean nothing on their own, but could be a germ. Let's see if anything constructive happens.

Why is college so expensive?

we should force colleges to cut expenses

 

[JoeB131]

Why should I have to pay your debt?

Same reason I'm paying yours...

 

[ding]

That sounds very much like a subset of Communism. I believe it is often said that that is how the Chinese view knowledge and why IP is so historically difficult to protect in their society, it is usually not accepted as such.

I don't know how true that characterization is or if it is a myth.

There's no reason to think that knowledge should be without value to those who have it transferring to those who want it. Just as any good and service.

Sounds like you are defending the university elite who hold knowledge hostage and charge hundreds of thousands of dollars for something that should cost an order of magnitude less.

 

[ding]

Why is college so expensive?

we should force colleges to cut expenses

Exactly. Why should a college education cost so much in the age of the internet and expect other people not going to college to foot the bill of those attending college just so the university elite can live in the lap of luxury.

 

[ding]

That sounds very much like a subset of Communism. I believe it is often said that that is how the Chinese view knowledge and why IP is so historically difficult to protect in their society, it is usually not accepted as such.

I don't know how true that characterization is or if it is a myth.

There's no reason to think that knowledge should be without value to those who have it transferring to those who want it. Just as any good and service.

Actually it sounds more like communism forcing everyone to pay for an unnecessarily expensive education for those who go to college.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Sounds like you are defending the university elite who hold knowledge hostage and charge hundreds of thousands of dollars for something that should cost an order of magnitude less.

Now you have moved the goal posts. There's a difference between "free" and "costing an order of magnitude less".

I'm totally in agreement with the second part but not at the expense to the academics. The cuts are probably best leveled at administration.

But the bigger issue is that back in my day in the early 80's the states were still on the hook for supporting education but then they found ways to scale back that cost and tuition started to rise along with a bloating of the administrators.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Actually it sounds more like communism forcing everyone to pay for an unnecessarily expensive education for those who go to college.

That is why I suggested we need to recalibrate how we approach employability in today's society. Improve incomes for the trades and improve access to non-university-degree employment. It's silly to assume college is required for everything in a society.

 

[ding]

Now you have moved the goal posts. There's a difference between "free" and "costing an order of magnitude less".

I'm totally in agreement with the second part but not at the expense to the academics. The cuts are probably best leveled at administration.

But the bigger issue is that back in my day in the early 80's the states were still on the hook for supporting education but then they found ways to scale back that cost and tuition started to rise along with a bloating of the administrators.

Actually it would be unrealistic to not have any cost. But if they changed their business model they could do everything remotely. They could increase enrollment by an order of magnitude and decrease costs by an order of magnitude.

The issue isn’t why isn’t it free as much as it is why is it so expensive so as to limit who can attend.

They are literally holding knowledge hostage with their business model.

 

[ding]

That is why I suggested we need to recalibrate how we approach employability in today's society. Improve incomes for the trades and improve access to non-university-degree employment. It's silly to assume college is required for everything in a society.

Incorrect. The issue is the greed of the university elite.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Exactly. Why should a college education cost so much in the age of the internet and expect other people not going to college to foot the bill of those attending college just so the university elite can live in the lap of luxury.

What "university elite" are living in the lap of luxury? Each year more and more universities are putting more and more education on the shoulders of contract instructors. They are decimating tenure and replacing full-time faculty with part-time contractor faculty who don't have benefits and often have to cobble together a full teaching load by teaching at a number of different colleges.

When I was teaching part-time in the Boston area where there are a LOT of small and middle sized colleges as well as the huge universities, I worked alongside folks who were working at several colleges simultaneously running all over the Boston metro area to cobble together enough pay to live. And they had no health insurance or other benefits.

I'm desperate to know where the money is going. Maybe there are elites in the administration. But they aren't the ones doing the heavy lifting of actually teaching the topics.

 

[ding]

Think how much better the world would be if everyone in it had a realistic opportunity of having a Harvard/MIT education.

There’s no reason - other than greed - that they can’t. The technology exists. It’s only a matter of time.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Think how much better the world would be if everyone in it had a realistic opportunity of having a Harvard/MIT education.

There’s no reason - other than greed - that they can’t. The technology exists. It’s only a matter of time.

I, personally, am quite glad I didn't have to rely on "distance" or "virtual learning". That dream has been kicking around since the 1970's when they tried bringing TV's into the classroom.

Now that the technology is legitimately there for real distance learning I'm not wholly convinced it is preferable to in-person learning. That could just be my own personal preference.

Right now there's actually a goodly amount of MIT open courseware already on line (has been for years) (HERE) but that's not necessarily the same as a real classroom.

 

[Flash]

Same reason I'm paying yours...

You are confused Moon Bat.

I pay a lot more in taxes each year to support you stupid uneducated low life welfare queens than I get out of the filthy ass government. In fact I directly and indirectly pay nearly 40% of my income so that you greedy shitheads can get all that free stuff that you desire so much.

How come you always have your head up your Libtard ass? That must be embarrassing to you to have to go through life being fat, dumb, stupid and having your head up your ass all the time.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

You are confused Moon Bat.

I pay a lot more in taxes each year to support you stupid uneducated low life welfare queens than I get out of the filthy ass government. In fact I directly and indirectly pay nearly 40% of my income so that you greedy shitheads can get all that free stuff that you desire so much.

How come you always have your head up your Libtard ass? That must be embarrassing to you to have to go through life being fat, dumb, stupid and having your head up your ass all the time.

Next time Florida gets hit with a hurricane, make sure to not expect America to bail you folks out YET AGAIN

 

[ding]

Of course the university elite will oppose any change to the status quo. It threatens their way of life, their livelihood. And whenever that has happened in the past, the people who control the reins go batshit crazy.

you can expect to hear all kinds of arguments about how educating everyone won’t work. How it won’t be the same. But in reality what they are arguing is that their lives won’t be the same.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Of course the university elite will oppose any change to the status quo. It threatens their way of life, their livelihood. And whenever that has happened in the past, the people who control the reins go batshit crazy.

you can expect to hear all kinds of arguments about how educating everyone won’t work. How it won’t be the same. But in reality what they are arguing is that their lives won’t be the same.

Can you be specific as to who these "university elite" are?

 

[ding]

Holding knowledge hostage is wrong. Imagine a world where everyone could have an Ivy League education for ten grand.

Who could argue against that?

 

[JoeB131]

I pay a lot more in taxes each year to support you stupid uneducated low life welfare queens than I get out of the filthy ass government. In fact I directly and indirectly pay nearly 40% of my income so that you greedy shitheads can get all that free stuff that you desire so much.

How come you always have your head up your Libtard ass? That must be embarrassing to you to have to go through life being fat, dumb, stupid and having your head up your ass all the time.

Actually, we spend 2.5 TRILLION on Middle Class Entitlements like Medicare, Social Security, Unemployment, Veteran's Benefits, FHA, to keep white people in the middle class. We spend less than 500 billion a year keeping poor people from starving...

You'd know this if you were good at math, Wingnut.