Malaysia Airlines Is To Blame. Not the Russians

[Toro]

Everybody seems to be quickly blaming the Russians and the Russian-supported Ukranian separatists, for the downing of the Malaysian passenger jet MH17. I disagree.

That's because you have a hard-on for the statist Putin.

 

[Desperado]

Sorry bub, not the fault of the airline.

When the FAA banned US flights over that air corridor and the simple fact that MH17 is the third plane this week shot down over Ukraine under mysterious circumstances, the airline should have banned flights in that area,

 

[martybegan]

Sorry yourself. It IS their fault. You don't fly into war zones. MA should be sued, big time.

Multiple airlines use this air corridor. Jesus Christ this is like blaming he fucking rape victim.

Not anymore they don't. It should have been declared a no fly zone long ago instead of now.

Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20.

 

[martybegan]

Sorry bub, not the fault of the airline.

When the FAA banned US flights over that air corridor and the simple fact that MH17 is the third plane this week shot down over Ukraine under mysterious circumstances, the airline should have banned flights in that area,

I believe the FAA ban wasn't because of potential missile fire, but because of a concern over conflicting directions between Ukrainian and Russian air controllers.

 

[hjmick]

Sorry bub, not the fault of the airline.

When the FAA banned US flights over that air corridor and the simple fact that MH17 is the third plane this week shot down over Ukraine under mysterious circumstances, the airline should have banned flights in that area,

Mysterious circumstances? Hardly. The separatists openly and happily admit to shooting down the fighter and the cargo plane.

 

[williepete]

When the FAA banned US flights over that air corridor and the simple fact that MH17 is the third plane this week shot down over Ukraine under mysterious circumstances, the airline should have banned flights in that area,

As a retired pilot, I agree. The FAA advised U.S. flagged carriers to avoid the area. The ICAO advised flights to overfly the area above 32,000 feet. There's shooting going on and other aircraft have been shot down in that area. What part of stay away from that airspace is hard to understand?

The culture of Asian airlines is to do what you're told. The cockpit culture of Asian airlines is to obey the captain. I could site accident after accident caused by this culture. It's not PC to bring it up but it's a major cause of accidents.

As the captain or crew of an aircraft, your primary concern is the safety of
1. Your passengers.
2. Your crew.
3. Your aircraft.

Your job is to say NO. Management may fire you but it's your job to insure the safety of the lives put in your care. There is no shirking this responsibility. It falls on one man's shoulders; that's why he's wearing four stripes.

Let's use bad weather along your route as an example. I danced this tango for 30 years.

You don't fly through thunderstorms regardless of the flight plan your dispatch gives you. You order more fuel and tell your dispatcher to reroute. He pitches a hissy fit and tries to talk you into sticking to 'his' plan. You tell him no. When the dispatch supervisor gets on the phone and raises holy Hell, you tell him to pound sand. He gets pissed and calls the Chief Pilot and now you're on the phone with the guy who can fire you. He's mad because you're costing the company time and money. You tell him this is my decision as captain and I've decided this is the safest plan. If he has another plan that's better, I'm all ears. If not, that's how I'm going to fly this flight. Don't like it? Fire me. A U.S. Chief Pilot always backs down and supports the captain. That's our culture. Not so in Asia and Central/South America.

The above example is JUST A THUNDERSTORM interfering with your planned route. You want to talk about a WAR ZONE where AIRCRAFT HAVE ALREADY BEEN SHOT DOWN?!

The airline was negligent in asking the crew to fly the route. The captain was negligent in accepting the route. The first officer was negligent by not challenging the captain. The captain was the last link in the chain to save his passengers, crew and aircraft. He failed. They died. No one else to blame. When you put on those four stripes, that's the responsibility you wear.

When you're the captain, you have to go to work every day willing to quit or be fired if you don't feel it would be safe for your family to be on board the flight you're assigned. It's that simple.

 

[Godboy]

Ok, so you believe the airline company is responsible, but the rest of the world doesnt agree with you. I think that means this debate is over, right? What more is there to say?

 

[dilloduck]

Ok, so you believe the airline company is responsible, but the rest of the world doesnt agree with you. I think that means this debate is over, right? What more is there to say?

Lots---we can argue that same shit over and over yet it's still collateral damage.

 

[Peach]

Ok, so you believe the airline company is responsible, but the rest of the world doesnt agree with you. I think that means this debate is over, right? What more is there to say?

Lots---we can argue that same shit over and over yet it's still collateral damage.

Hiuan lives are not collateral damage; a safer route would have cost money & time the airline did not allow/ Remember the words written here often, "businesses operate to make money", bad decisions cost more than that which is saved however.

 

[dilloduck]

Ok, so you believe the airline company is responsible, but the rest of the world doesnt agree with you. I think that means this debate is over, right? What more is there to say?

Lots---we can argue that same shit over and over yet it's still collateral damage.

Hiuan lives are not collateral damage; a safer route would have cost money & time the airline did not allow/ Remember the words written here often, "businesses operate to make money", bad decisions cost more than that which is saved however.

Collateral damage is damage to things that are incidental to the intended target. It is frequently used as a military term where it can refer to the accidental or unintentional killing or wounding of non-combatants and/or destruction to non-combatant property during attacks on legitimate enemy targets

Collateral damage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[williepete]

Consider the Titanic.

Captain E. J. Smith was one of the most experienced captains in the world. He was so experienced and respected, he was given command of the Titanic for her maiden voyage.

He had confirmed reports of icebergs on the shorter and faster northern route. A southerly route would be farther to travel and slower but safer. He was under pressure from the company to make a fast crossing. He yielded to the wishes of his company and took the northern route.

Now that he's on the shorter route with known icebergs, it would be prudent to go slow at night. By going slow at night, his crew would have more time to spot the icebergs and avoid them. Or, if they struck, they'd strike at a slower speed and cause less damage. Once again, he was pressured to make a fast crossing. He yielded his command decision to the company's wishes and kept his speed up.

He deliberately and knowingly made the unsafe decision twice.

Was the threat that destroyed his ship and the lives of his passengers the icebergs or Captain Smith's decisions?

So was the threat to MH17 the war zone or the decision to fly over the war zone where other aircraft had already been shot down?

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[protectionist]

Sorry bub, not the fault of the airline.

Sorry yourself. It IS their fault. You don't fly into war zones. MA should be sued, big time.

Multiple airlines use this air corridor. Jesus Christ this is like blaming he fucking rape victim.

No it's not. Don't talk stupid. It just is a war zone, that's all. And MA is NOT the victim. The dead passengers are. And because of an iresponsible decision by MA. The families should sue MA. ASAP before they go out of business.

 

[protectionist]

... and children killed in drive-bys are at fault for playing outside in gang territory

Illogical attempt at analogy. The children wouldn't be at fault, but neither were the plane's passengers, and nobody said they were.

 

[protectionist]

I don't think so. The area around/above Ukraine was deemed safe to overfly by European aviation officials until the downing of MH17. Despite the downing of aircraft in recent days. Reckless Russian operatives are the cause of this disaster. And the Russians need to be called out on the carpet for this atrocity. The question here is: why do insurgents need sophisticated anti aircraft weapons from Russia to begin with?

I the Taliban had been supplied by another country, and it was receiving arms by plane, and the US antiaircraft fire shot at these cargo planes (sometimes mistaking a passenger plane for one of them), would you ask why do the US troops need sophisticated anti aircraft weapons ?

Or is it was World War II, and the US was shooting down Nazi planes.

This isn't hard. There's a war going on. If you walk out into the middle of it, you get your head blown off.

As for the "European aviation officials", THEY are who was reckless, negligent, and irresponsible.

 

[protectionist]

Everybody seems to be quickly blaming the Russians and the Russian-supported Ukranian separatists, for the downing of the Malaysian passenger jet MH17. I disagree. The Russians, the separatists, and the Ukranians are involved in a war, which is really nobody's business but theirs. How would Americans like it if people in Russia said we in America should not rule over the island of Puerto Rico ?... and if Puerto Ricans rebelled, we should not send troops. And that the Russians might send arms to the Puerto rican separatists. We'd probably tell them to mind their own business.

I could understand if Putin was sending troops into Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland, in something reminiscient of Hitler's blitzkrieg upon Europe. But this is just a matter between 2 countries, which really ought to be nobody's business but theirs.

So what you have is a war combat zone. Well anyone in his right mind knows that is place to stay away from. Everyone but the people in Malaysia Airlines that is, and the dummies at the International Civil Aviation Organization, who the company has stupidly listened to. Malaysia Airlines said: “The usual flight route was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organsiation."

Well, if you see somebody climb to the top of the tallest bridge in your town, and jump off, do you do that too ? It should have been common sense to avoid a combat zone, and Malaysia Airlines and the ICAO both are the ones to blame fro being just plain STUPID. Other airlines rerouted their flights months ago when this zone became one of combat (Quantas, China Airlines, Korean Air, Asiana).

Professor Geoff Dell, a Central Queensland University accident investigation and safety specialist, said Malaysia Airlines should not have been flying over Ukraine.

“From as soon as the conflict started they shouldn’t have been going anywhere near it,’’ Prof Dell said. “They should’ve shifted to alternate routes, like all the other airlines seemed to have done.’’

So if anyone wants to blame anyone they should blame the officials at Malaysia Airlines and the International Civil Aviation Organization.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...ukraine-conflict/story-e6frg95x-1226993474860

Let me guess, you think women are responsible for being raped if they are in the wrong place or wearing the wrong clothes.

Negged for terminal stupidity.

No, I don't think that, nor is there even the slightest reason to ask such as stupid question which has no correlation with the topic. But you can't resist the opportunity to show off how foolish you can be. Ho hum. Seen this before.

 

[protectionist]

Everybody seems to be quickly blaming the Russians and the Russian-supported Ukranian separatists, for the downing of the Malaysian passenger jet MH17. I disagree.

That's because you have a hard-on for the statist Putin.

I couldn't care less about him. YOU are the one who is thinking about him. And you hate him so much, you're not getting any hard-ons. Not my problem. See your doctor.

 

[protectionist]

Sorry bub, not the fault of the airline.

When the FAA banned US flights over that air corridor and the simple fact that MH17 is the third plane this week shot down over Ukraine under mysterious circumstances, the airline should have banned flights in that area,

OF COURSE! But as it is in most threads, the dummies will show up, and show off how low the human brain can descend. This thread is no exception.

 

[Flopper]

Does it really make a difference. Malaysian Air was following the same route as dozens of other airlines followed. It is pure chance that the missile struck Malaysian Airline. If not Malaysian Air, it would have been another airliner. Airlines take the shortest route possible to reduce cost.

 

[protectionist]

Sorry bub, not the fault of the airline.

When the FAA banned US flights over that air corridor and the simple fact that MH17 is the third plane this week shot down over Ukraine under mysterious circumstances, the airline should have banned flights in that area,

Mysterious circumstances? Hardly. The separatists openly and happily admit to shooting down the fighter and the cargo plane.

That has nothing to do with shooting down a passenger jet. There's no way they would have wanted to do that.

 

[Jroc]

Everybody seems to be quickly blaming the Russians and the Russian-supported Ukranian separatists, for the downing of the Malaysian passenger jet MH17. I disagree. The Russians, the separatists, and the Ukranians are involved in a war, which is really nobody's business but theirs. How would Americans like it if people in Russia said we in America should not rule over the island of Puerto Rico ?... and if Puerto Ricans rebelled, we should not send troops. And that the Russians might send arms to the Puerto rican separatists. We'd probably tell them to mind their own business.

I could understand if Putin was sending troops into Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland, in something reminiscient of Hitler's blitzkrieg upon Europe. But this is just a matter between 2 countries, which really ought to be nobody's business but theirs.

So what you have is a war combat zone. Well anyone in his right mind knows that is place to stay away from. Everyone but the people in Malaysia Airlines that is, and the dummies at the International Civil Aviation Organization, who the company has stupidly listened to. Malaysia Airlines said: “The usual flight route was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organsiation."

Well, if you see somebody climb to the top of the tallest bridge in your town, and jump off, do you do that too ? It should have been common sense to avoid a combat zone, and Malaysia Airlines and the ICAO both are the ones to blame fro being just plain STUPID. Other airlines rerouted their flights months ago when this zone became one of combat (Quantas, China Airlines, Korean Air, Asiana).

Professor Geoff Dell, a Central Queensland University accident investigation and safety specialist, said Malaysia Airlines should not have been flying over Ukraine.

“From as soon as the conflict started they shouldn’t have been going anywhere near it,’’ Prof Dell said. “They should’ve shifted to alternate routes, like all the other airlines seemed to have done.’’

So if anyone wants to blame anyone they should blame the officials at Malaysia Airlines and the International Civil Aviation Organization.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...ukraine-conflict/story-e6frg95x-1226993474860

A Singapore Airlines passenger plane was flying just 15 miles away from flight MH17 when it was shot out of the sky over Ukraine.

Data from Flightradar24.com reveals the Copenhagen to Singapore flight was in airspace above the dangerous Donetsk region just two minutes before a surface-to-air missile hit the Malaysia Airlines plane on Thursday.

Figures also reveal 55 planes - including six flights from London's Heathrow Airport - flew over the war zone on the same day the tragedy happened.

Read more: Virgin Atlantic plane was in same area as MH17 Virgin Atlantic plane was in same area as MH17 Heathrow-bound airliner was flying through Ukrainian airspace at same time as Malaysia Airlines aircraft was shot out the sky | Mail Online